Colgan Pilots ALPA Informational Meeting July 29-30 @ EWR
 

Attention Colgan Pilots:

Next week an open forum for informational purposes on this year's ALPA drive will be held. All are encouraged to stop in. ALPA representatives will be present and food/coffee will be provided. Volunteers are needed to help with the drive so please stop by!

Where: Marriott - Newark Airport
When: July 29 & 30 (Doors open from 12PM-6PM)

i was wondering when we'd her from alpa again

Let's get them in this time around.

Good luck to you Colgan guys. I hope this thread will stay positive and for that reason i am keeping my opinions out of this. I hope you all take the time to understand the pro's and con's of unionization. ALPA may not be the answer but maybe another union will be. It is a big decision and it will have major ramifications on your future careers.

Being a 9E guy, I would really encourage all you Colgan guys to get ALPA onboard. I'm not the biggest fan of ALPA, but when you have an extremely abusive managment, like the one we both have, you need a union. I also think that's going to give both pinnacle and you guys more bargain power against PNCL corp. PNCL's managment wouldn't hesitate to create confrontation between us and try to make us screw each other. Being united under the same union would prevent that. We'll be able to work toghether during these harsh times. Just my opinion........

Well said my friend, Colgan's management is very abusive and sneaky. This time it need to be %100

Yes we need one. But not ALPA. Teamsters is the way to go. Nothing more ALPA would like to do then get are money and make the colgan 34 seat clause happen. That was in one of there statmenents to Pinnacle pilots. Tell me this, why would I want them here at colgan? Somone please tell me.

Well, I'd like to know YOUR reasons for choosing Teamsters.
(reasons why Teamsters is good, not reasons why ALPA is bad.)

Well I kind of gave out a hint in my post above......but........ I'm just saying, apparentely some guys at colgan haven't realize yet what kind of new boss they have. You'd be surprise of what PNCL corp. is capable of doing. Anyhow, I see why some guys don't like ALPA, but remember, if you bring ALPA onboard, you have to set goals with them and make clear what you guys want, not what ALPA wants. You guys need to develop an agenda with them. We at 9E are fighting the scope language regarding you guys in our new contract, and managment apparently has been trying to do whatever they want. I'm sure you guys are not interested in becoming another GOJET. Not saying it'll get to that point, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they start screwing around with our flying. They'll love to have a strike-proofed company. Again, I repeat, I think it'll be really good for Colgan and Us to be leveled and work togheter with ALPA.
It's only my opinion........

Will Alpa hold informational meetings in IAH? I think as a pilot group we need as much information as possible. Pretty much everyone I know wants a union at Colgan now, however, there are a lot of pilots afraid of what Alpa will do to us in terms of the Scope. I realize the importance of a united group (both pilot groups 9e and 9l) and I feel that the company under ALPA would still be Colgan flying props and Pinnacle flying jets, however, there are a lot of people afraid. That is what is fueling the Teamsters/ALPA debate. At the end of the day, I think pretty much everyone agrees we need representation of some kind be it ALPA or Teamsters.

As a disclaimer I am a 9E pilot and ALPA supporter, that does not mean I support everything they do.... But here is one fact that will never change in ALPA.

THE PILOTS ARE THE UNION!

Sure, there is an MEC,LEC, chairman of this, that, the other BUT all the issues that effect you and are a concern to you come up to a vote FROM THE PILOT GROUP. So lets say you vote in ALPA at Colgan and there is some RIDICULOUS "34 seat colgan scope clause", not only can you vote it down "NO" but you can oust those stupid enough to even say it was Ok and send it off as a TA. The pilots get to sit up front with mgmt in the day-to-day issues and you would be amazed what little issues your local ALPA guys can take care of ON YOUR BEHALF! 1.95% of your taxable dues is a cheap insurance policy. As a 9E guy who will self proclaim to "keep an ear to the ground" Colgan is a big issue, not in the negative sense- but in what MGMT wants. Why do you suppose mgmt was soo happy and gave you buddy (who was lorenzo's buddy if you recall) and try and promise the world to you for "no ALPA". You think all the PNCL (9e) folks want to hurt your pilot group? NO we are 99% against mgmt, come join our club, we are up against the same folks- our arms are open! With the arbitration issue on the table I do not see how any Colgan pilot would not want to hop aboard...?

I support the 9L folks. This situation is like 2 single parents making a family, why shouldn't the kids bond and make the best of it and have LEVERAGE against the parents.

Us becoming ALPA,teamsters,or staying non union would have no effect on the Pinnacle pilots wanting a 34 scope clause. If you think it does, then I suggest doing some actual research before making a decision or else you are doing yourself and your coworkers a diservice.

Why would you want them here at Colgan? Well, do you think the current status quo is working? If you do, then you don't need ALPA or teamsters. But if you think there needs to be a change, I don't think teamsters is the way to go. Getting teamsters for the reason it's not ALPA is going to make you very upset at your union when you get one. Teamsters is cheaper, but when is cheaper better?

I could list numerous reasons supporting teamsters and ALPA. Both offer good and bad, i'm not going to list them for you. I've done the research on my own time looking at FACTS, not propaganda. For me it's obvious while I do not support some ALPA policies, they would give Colgan pilots the most opportunity for success. What you and others need to understand, teamsters nor ALPA is going to get you ANYTHING, they will supply the tools, you and other Colgan pilots will determine how successful you are.

awwwww.....

Hey that's pretty good!

exactly. The majority do want a union, that is now a nonissue.
I hear this argument A LOT from people who want Teamsters... concerns regarding scope and merging of seniority.
I personally feel like it would be very beneficial for the success of this ALPA drive if someone(s) of some sort of official capacity, whether from ALPA or Pinncle MEC, would come out to the Colgan group and addressed this very issue. especially to the guys who need to hear it - those who are too lazy or prejudiced to come out and hear ALPA's pitch. (I know next week's meeting may address it, but obviously the only people who will make the effort to show up are pilots who already want ALPA.)

wow still beating this dead horse at colgan?? didnt know...i say keep em out...its not like your going to make any more money with the union

With these two unions fighting for out attention it might lead to neither of them winning

Teamsters didn't side against its members on age 65. Go teamsters

Hey Ill be around, now some of you guys can meet me in person, and call me names if you want :)

Some supporters of the Teamsters believe that if Colgan pilots vote in ALPA we will be stapled to the bottom of the Pinnacle seniority list and they'll limit our scope to 34-seat flying. This is untrue. Pinnacle pilots want to insure management will NOT be able use Colgan as a whipsaw. An integrated seniority list is the solution.

In the event of a merged seniority list and scope issues, it will be the PILOTS of Colgan negotiating with the PILOTS of Pinnacle. Voting in ALPA fosters a good relationship between the two pilot groups for the ensuing negotiations. It is a sign of solidarity among the two pilot groups and hurts the chances of management to use us against one another.

ALPA is a professional organization for pilots, while the IBT represents a variety of professions. Which is better suited to negotiate a contract for airline pilots that includes per diem for day trips, block or better per leg, and extension pay? Which is better suited to represent an AIRLINE pilot when faced with legal issues from the FAA or company?

the professional org that allows first year pilots to get paid 20k...my best friend with no college degree drives a beer truck for budwiser...he makes 55k starting pay driving that truck...so what your telling me is the beer in that truck is worth more or more important to society than the 30+ people in the back of my plane?? if the unions truly were for the pilots they wouldnt let crap like this happen, and if the airlines were managed like they should be there would be no need for the unions....its a dirty crappy cycle and im damn proud im not part of it....union free is for sure the way to be!!

No, but he is willing to fly for 20k a year blame him not the union. I love when people make stupid comparisons like this, if you think driving around a beer truck will be a more lucrative career, have at it, but you know its not.


"union free is way to go" <-------------ignorance is bliss I guess

Also I checked the starting pay is around 30k to drive a beer truck

Why not investigate them both before drawing a conclusion...

ALPA is a member union of the AFL-CIO. The AFL-CIO represents a whole bunch of professions:

Unions of the AFL-CIO

You might want to take a look at who the Airline Division of the IBT represent:
Who We Represent
A couple notable pilot groups are Republic (all three), ABX, and NetJets.

My guess is these horse drivers have probably heard of block or better before.




I suggest you do some real research before you choose between ALPA and the IBT. If you want ALPA, fine. But make sure you are choosing ALPA because they are BETTER, not because ALPA has AIRLINE PILOTS in its name.

not ignorance.... wishful thinking.

The only companies that have (or will have) unions are those that NEED unions.

A Union is only as strong as its local council and the airlines individual Officers. Look at XJT's contract, and look at MESA's...................

Here is why. You heard it here first. My speculation for the day. Pinnacle is going to sell you down the river in the end to get the 9E guys to sign a contract. Their scope clause will fence you in and integrate you. If you are not part of ALPA I would highly suggest that you understand the Merger process of "Alleghaney v Mowhawk". That is what you can look forward to. Stapled at the bottom of their most recent new hire. Not meant to threaten or intimidate any of you. Just the rule of law established long ago.

NetJets has dropped Teamsters. Thanks for suggesting I do the research though.

Right, and we can't even get a response from the IBT on our Union-sponsored website which cost over $60,000 and doesn't have any good up-to-date info.

I'd take ALPA over IBT any day. ALPA is a trade union which is made up of pilots. IBT is the leftovers that aren't in specialized trades.

ABX air is teamsters but will mostly disappear in a year with UPS taking over much of their flying. Alpa has a huge war chest fund of cash saved for legal battles which is only possible by being the size they are with multiple streams of income..

I am signing a card for both IBT and ALPA. Get enough cards for both so we can have a vote later on and have both as a final choice option.

The good news if we have IBT and ALPA as choices and they split 30% 30% with 40% no union, we still get a union.

I hope the 9L folks look at the "Big" picture. Do you want to be a pawn or part of the team? We have open arms and the same goals on the 9E side. Mgmt, well they have already shown otherwise....

Can any republic pilots share info about how teamsters are working out for you guys?

Alright guys put it this way, 9E has a much larger pilot group. This has a lot of people worried about who ALPA will want to please more, a large group or a small group. Colgan will be involved in the 9E negotiations whether they like it or not. If Colgan is ALPA, they will at least have a chance to make it a fair integration through one strong, organized and much more powerful combined group. If Colgan is Teamsters then they will be a small and comparitively weak union and will be crushed under the will of the larger parent company.

Did you read my earlier post? Most aren't too happy. There is no communication. They just spent $60,000 on a website that is rarely posted on by union leadership and when we get angry about it we get a "if you don't like it, vote for new leadership".

I would like to now why word of this supposed meeting hasn't been distributed to the Colgan pilots? The only announcement of this meeting I've seen is here. Are they planning on sending out emails, or conducting phone calls? This forum is clearly not the best way to reach the Colgan pilots who need to attend this meeting.

It is my understanding that signing ANY card is a request for representation by A union, not specifically XYZ union. I think signing both cards is just overkill (but I do like your thuroughness)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would LOVE to have representatives from BOTH unions in the same room AT THE SAME TIME for a real debate.

As of July 11, you are right. I stand corrected.

My main point was the IBT understands "per diem for day trips, block or better per leg, and extension pay".



While I favor one candidate right now, I am open to logical arguments pro and con for both. Some of the specific questions I would like to have answered are:

How are negotiations actually handled? Does the rank and file have the final say on a contract or is it the MEC? What level of involvement does the national have in negotiations (I'm just a stupid pilot not a specialist in contract law)?

Where do my dues go? How are they spent? who decides?

(For ALPA in particular)
You represent CAL and United, how can I be assured there will be no conflict of interest when my contract is negotiated?

My understanding is Pinnacle pilots want Colgan to join ALPA. If that is the case, why has there been no WRITTEN plan for merging seniority (if it occurs)?

(For IBT)
If I vote you in, will I get a giant, inflatable rat??? (soory, had to add a little levity)

Signing an authorization card says you wish the NMB to conduct an investigation/vote for a union. There is a difference though between the ALPA cards and Teamsters. Teamsters cards say if the company chooses to acknowledge the Teamsters, they can. No vote required.


I have a question for the Teamsters supporters. They claim ALPA won't represent Colgan Pilots IF there was a merger with PNCL. Why would the teamsters represent us better? If we merged with PNCL we would become ALPA, Teamsters would lose us, thus they have no reason to want to spend money and man power to support us in a merger.

One more question to those opposed to ALPA because in a merger ALPA will take PNCL side. What is ALPA national's role in a merger, and how will ALPA national help PNCL more then us? What is ALPA's merger policy? If you don't know, you probably shouldn't be saying anything about what ALPA will or won't do.

If we Colgan pilots come together develop a solid relationship with PNCL pilots, and IF A MERGER took place, an agreement could be reached that both sides could live with.

Of course that would require Colgan Pilots to learn how to not be defensive about everything that goes on around us, opening our eyes, and taking a proactive role in our futures. Until we can, no union out there can help us.

Thanks for the clarification on the cards. When you say "the company" is that management or labor? If it is management, I think we can all agree "the company" doesn't want ANY union.

You raise excellent questions. The kinds of questions I want answered before I cast my vote. That is why I want to talk to BOTH of them. As I have said, I am LEANING for the IBT, but ultimately I want what is best for me and my comrades.

To date, I have not found, and no one has shown me, ALPA's merger position. I would love to know it, and share it with my coworkers.

There is a vocal group in both companies who believes "they are gonna take my flyin". The folks I fly with and I DON"T WANT to take their flying. My guess is most of the PNCL folks DON'T WANT to take Colgan slots. But I think a statement by the PNCL group to the Colgan pilots could eliminate may of the fears (the statement must come from PNCL since it is a bigger group and since they already have a union and, by definition, have a unified voice.... something Colgan pilots do not legally have now).

We all want the same things: better working conditions and (when the money exists) better pay. I hope both groups can work together.

FWIW, you and I and several others of us ARE being proactive. In most unions, a handful of folks do a ****load of work while the masses just want to share the spoils. One big concern I have is how many folks seem to be anti union. I thought the only question was WHO would represent us, but I am starting to wonder if ANYONE will represent us. Fight the good fight, and may the best UNION WIN!