J/S with ASA in a weight critical flight
 

Hey, guys, a question for Acey guys here, what's your policy for listing J/S when the flight is weight critical? Let me explain what happened to me

I show up at an outstation and try to list for the jumpseat. The gate agent tells me he won't list me for the jumpseat because the flight is weight critical. I was very polite and asked him if I could just list and then last minute maybe the numbers would work. He said NO ! I ask if I could talk to the CA and he said NO because the CA already was down in the airplane.
I don't know about you guys, but in PNCL we let as many non-revers and J/S to list in a wt. critical flight, and then las minute when we have the final cargo and pax load we give the numbers a last look and decide. Many times too, we "play" with those numbers..... "no one left behind policy". What really bothered me was not even being able to give it a shot. Just because dispatch sends the paperwork with the note "weight critical" doesn't mean we won't take non-revers or J/S, well at least in PNCL.

Some facts
- it was a CRJ2
- there were some 4 open seats
- Apparentely they had a precautionary alternate for ATL (landing weight is the problem with the X Fuel)
- There is no limit for the T/O Weight at this airport (unless MELs maybe)
- No pax were left behind

I understand that J/S is a privilege, and I'm always thankfull, but it's a little frustrating when you know that something else could have been done.....

Contact your j/s coordinator with as many specifics as possible (date, flight #, etc) so that he/she can let the ASA J/S coordinator know what is going on.

most of the time if you can get down to talk to the capt, or if he comes up and see you, you'd be alright. but that's just the gate agent on a power trip and when these things do happen get in contact with your jumpseat committee and give them all the information you can, try and get the gate agent's name, flight number, date, time. hopefully they can get that information down to the station manager and tell her the proper way to do things...

sometimes tho it might be a zero fuel weight thing, but if there a way most capt's will do what they can to get a jumpseater on

I think you had a gate agent issue, not an ASA issue.

Yup, just another gate agent being a dick!

Apparentely that was the case, so far nobody has mentioned any company policy on listing J/S. Don't you hate when you get those gate agents? I only had good experiencies with DL and DL connection till incident. I think they have much better costumer service than what we have. I'm really tired of dealing with some monkeys in NW mainline also , they think they are your boss and are so important. The other day, in a NW mainline managed station, we were wt. critical, and they never talked to us, they call our dispatch, and dispatch said: is looking like we'll have to leave 3-4 pax. (revenue pax), but we'll see with the gate checked bags and final checked bags #. Well, the NW gate agent came to the airplane and took 4 pax, and I asked what's going on?, and he said: we are wt restricted, you can't take all the pax..... so I said wait, let me check the final numbers and see what they look like. Gate agent didn't care and he took 4 pax out. I do my math and figured that we can take everybody. So the captain was already ****ed and went running up to the gate to tell the gate agent that we can take everybody, to re-board those 4 pax again. Gate agent said no, I already took them out. The captain had to argue for a while to get the pax onboard. They were paying pax, not even non-revs or J/S in the last flight of the day. So... who is the boss?

Clearly a gate enacting it's revenge for us ' ALWAYS ' treating them poorly. Kindly ask them to see the captain, which you are entitled to, or ask them for a supervisor if they are too busy. Weight Critical is a term they like to use when Workload might exceed their capacity ( basically anyday at any hour if they are tired/hungry/peeved/happy/sad/whatever ) These people take their home lives to work soo much that it is hard ever getting a word in edge wise because they are soo messed up. Only time the CR2 is really weight critical is short flights or heavy cargo, for the most part.

Oh you didn't know what they teach ppl in gate agent indoc? FAR. Capt is PIC = gate agent is the capt when the plane is at the gate.

Day 1 Indoc
Day 2 gate sims (how to turn everyone away)
Day 3 the line......

This obviously doesn't apply to all gate agents, there are plenty that are great and treat their job with nothing but their best.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....its terrible but its soo true

Speaking of gate agents, I was DHing from ATL-LIT last week one of the nights that storms were really messing things up in ATL. Lots of people were asking for help getting reacomodated on another flight if they had missed theirs...but the gate agent was too busy on myspace to help them...or at least politely point them in the right direction.

But, but... did you get on her Top 8 Friends list? :D

no...she was showing me the profile of some pinnacle captain who she said "wants to marry me". All I have to say is that said captain should raise his standards :-P

NWA gate agents are way overworked and way underpaid. It's a fact of life. Their job rates just above right seat.

Im not saying all gate agents are good, some are just immature.

But how many of you that were just bashing them have actually done their jobs?

Lumping them all together and saying they are just on a power trip is retarded at best.

and the attitude of, "the plane is on the gate, its under my control" Is 100% correct. They are responsible for the flight. Im not saying this one wasnt being a douche, or it was or was not weight critical.

Im just pointing out that Alot of Gate agents, specially here at BNA will go and do go out of their way to help flight crew.

Did it for a long time I chewed out a capt for telling me to **** the airlink passengers that had been waiting for a saab and a RJ that never showed up. All he carried about was a quick turn so he wouldnt get stuck in the blizzard. next thing you know we turn him MSP shuts down due to weather we get two diversions and dont have the gate space to bring him back to the gate. He got what he deserved.

Can you PM me with the outstation in question? I'll bet it is the same airport I commute from. I hear the same crap from this person everytime I try to j/s to work. A few of us have been complaining about this jerk. If it is the same person I'm thinking of, I would like to use your incident to build our case.........Sorry this happened to you. I am an ASA pilot and have had to call the dispatcher to get the Captains cell phone so that I could call him at the gate to get him to come up and overide the gate agent.

we want names!!!:D

The PLANE is NEVER under their control. The plane is always under the captains control. The BOARDING PROCESS is under the gate agent's control.

Agreed. What station was this?

We ASA captains have little tolerance for gate agents controlling things beyond their jurisdiction, particularly what j/sers get on our planes.

I'm going to guess this was an outstation run by Delta or Comair (not ASA employees). Maybe? These stations seem to be the worst because they hate us.

This is awful...especially in the summer, there are lots of kids traveling that are half weights! My paperwork always has a weight restriction message on it. It is very very rare that we actually leave people. Very rare! Gate agents love being in control. I can't stand gate agents that act like you are getting in the way just because you want a ride. Their job is to board everyone including revenue passengers booked on the flight, revenue standbys (they should be charged), non-revs, and jumpseaters. However, they act like their job is to board the confirmed revenue passengers. That's it.

I urge each and every one of you that has an issue to please e-mail your jumpseat committee. Always always always get the gate agent's name. Insist on having them tell the Captain that are up at the gate wanting a ride to/from work. Like the original poster said, jumpseating is a privilege and not a right. However, that is how many pilots go to work to put food on the table for their families and it is also how many pilots return home to their families after being away from them.

Really? Wanna try to do something without the ramp or gates approval... You cant start an engine till they tell you... You can move till they allow it. You can board until they allow it... I would call that control my friend. Sure the Capt. still has the cockpit. But thats bout it. If they so wanted to, they could keep the flight crew corraled on the plane... and only allow the FO on the active ramp to do his walk...

Im not starting a fight here. Besides its not about I and you... Its about we... the team is what gets the job done, not jsut one or the other.

LOL, Are you serious?

Yeah, doesn't work like that.

I think the argument is who has legitimate control. The airplane "belongs" to the captain. Enough said. Can the gate agent prevent the flight by never allowing boarding? Of course. Can the ramp prevent the flight by not commencing pushback? Sure. But is this legitimate control? Not at all. It's overstepping their authority.

If you are so bold to say this I hope you are a regional driver. All that takes is a delay code and the carrier will find out why they didn't board, pushback etc. even a call to ops can fix this if they overstep their authority. We have turned the plane back to the gate before after we where told we couldnt wait at the gate because of weather, 1hr on the taxiway with ****ed off passengers a call to ops and what do you know.. a gate opens up. All ops wanted to know was what did the capt think. Don't think the capt doesnt have control at the end of the day. He/she does, read the regs 121/91/61 all pretty much says capt is the final authority. The only ppl that can stop a capt from boarding a j/s is fed and company. The engine start signals from rampers is a safety issue. They are our eyes outside the plane. The CANNOT just flat out push us back leave us on the ramp and tell us we cannot start without some good reason. An act like that would we challenged and the capt will win.

I have seen you once post something about your deployment. So I assume your military, so was I, enlisted. My airwing also had different departments that could stop a flight from going. But if we did, we had to have a good reason to and with auth. from our oic. A pvt. cannot just stop a flight because he didn't like a lt. If that flight was cancelled did it mean that that Pvt. had more authority then the flight crew? no. If the reason wasn't food enough the crew would just tell the CO and get a go/no go, even then CO would take the capt. advice under consideration. In the airlines line of work there are a lot of things that it has incommon with a military. Their has to be some kinda chain of command. The Capt is the final word before going to company and the company will see what the capt thinks.

Does this mean the gate agents have no control at all? no. They can turn away drunk passengers or whatever. If they slip by again the Capt. is the fail safe, if the FA tells him someone slipped by the capt can turn them away. What if the agent insistes on boarding the drunk passenger and the capt. want the passenger off? If they are even equals in authority then we have a problem here. We work in harmony here, we are each others check and balance but at the end of the day only one can make the final call, the Capt. This is also one reason why they get paid more, the burden of command.

Lemme give you just one example for what I am getting at. According to you, the gate runs the whole show, I as Captain am just a pawn to be pushed wherever I am needed, until I am unchoked and engines running....

Few weeks ago had a deferred APU AND jetbridge had no ground air. 95 degrees outside, probably 110 or so in the cabin, 120 in the cockpit. I politely told the gate agent when we were going to board, so he didnt have peeps sitting in that oven for the whole 25 minute boarding proccess. We were going to wait for the huffercart to arrive, then start boarding as fast as possible.

Well no sooner I get back down to stow my bags (30 minutes prior to departure) I hear him open the boarding door and make the we are now boarding PA. 5 people come down the jetbridge, I intercept them and escort them back to the gate. Gate argues with me we have to get this plane out on time. (yeah all doors closed with no air for 15-25 minutes? no thanks). He says he doesn't need the CA to be there to board, So I get the FA off the airplane so noone is on it and it it would be an FAA violation for him to board.
Huffer cart arrived, I cranked one up while boarding, out in 10 minutes.

That is Captain's authority, not gate agents authority. Lemme ask you this....had I boarded in that situation when the gate agent wanted me to and 3 old lady's and an infant got heat stroke and needed medical attention because they were in a 115 degree oven for 35-40 minutes, who would have gotten in trouble? (hint, not the gate agent)

Damn man, that gate agent had the guts to say that to the Capt? haha Our company requires the Capts ok and the FA ok to board.

Im not saying the Capt has no authority.

I understand your points.

The point I am making is this.

The gate Agent has a specific job to do. They have authority, as so far to do their job. The Rampers have the same authority. Nothing more. Nothing Less.

Every example I used, was at the gate, parked.

Can the Capt make Command decisions? Yes. Will Ops or management listen to the Capt over the Agent? Yes.

In the end, Each party has a specific job to do. Each has their own authority and own area of control. It does over lap in places. As I said, Its not about I or you. Its WE, We get teh job done. I cant load the plane, board it, and fly it alone. Neither can you.

As for my deployment, That was a unique analogy, but made perfect sense. However, I was not trying to imply the agent(private) ever over stepped their authority... I was only reffering to normal operations, and Agents doing things within their authority.

No offense man, but with the conditions you decribed here, I wouldn't have accepted this flight and airplane/gate equipment under these extremely hot conditions. THAT is Captains Authority my man. Too many regional captains seem to forget this. SAY NO. Tail swap the aircraft, or borrow an air cart from the competition or something. No ground air whatsoever in the summer HEAT? To let the company get away with this is rediculous, not to mention unhealthy and UNSAFE. It is called a summer OPS plan....and most companies have one. For goodness sake. We must put our feet down!

I agree, we have even gotten cups from the competition because we ran out and was at an out station. Thanks eagle that helped us out. Out on the line it is great to see us help one another out even if we don't work for the same company. Just like the military, this job is like a brotherhood. ooh-rah

did you miss the part where I refused to board until I had an engine running, therefore cooling down the plane enough to board? and that by the time we started boarding it MAY have been after sunset, thus cooling the temp almost 20 degrees instantly? No where did I say I DIDN"T call for an air cart... I didn't think I was going to have a lawyer analyze my post and have to give every single detail, just enlough to make the point of the argument...and did you even read the last sentence where obviously I said it was unsafe? I notice you left out the whole middle section of my quote where I made the no go decisions......

People read into everybody's posts waaay too deep and liteally on here. I could say I went to the car dealer to buy a VW bug and the sales man wanted me to pay $75000 for it. Then someone would post on here saying what an idiot I was for buying a $75000 VW. Never said I bought it!

Are you kidding me? The gate/ramp/meteringor whatever "controls" this area doesn't have final authority, or any for that matter. This is non-movement area, I can start both at the gate, push when I want, or anything else. Why you might ask, because they are there to make sure the planes arrive and depart the gates in a fluid manner with the least amount of friction.

Now if there was some sort of issue and you weren't listening to one of these gate/ramp/metering sure the FAA could hit you up with careless and reckless but seriously, CA rules the roost...that is why unable is a term used in communications.

Ok I am off the soap box....next?

umm i think atlmsl was actually on the CA's side, not the agents...

Here is your origanal post:

"Lemme give you just one example for what I am getting at. According to you, the gate runs the whole show, I as Captain am just a pawn to be pushed wherever I am needed, until I am unchoked and engines running....

Few weeks ago had a deferred APU AND jetbridge had no ground air. 95 degrees outside, probably 110 or so in the cabin, 120 in the cockpit. I politely told the gate agent when we were going to board, so he didnt have peeps sitting in that oven for the whole 25 minute boarding proccess. We were going to wait for the huffercart to arrive, then start boarding as fast as possible.

Well no sooner I get back down to stow my bags (30 minutes prior to departure) I hear him open the boarding door and make the we are now boarding PA. 5 people come down the jetbridge, I intercept them and escort them back to the gate. Gate argues with me we have to get this plane out on time. (yeah all doors closed with no air for 15-25 minutes? no thanks). He says he doesn't need the CA to be there to board, So I get the FA off the airplane so noone is on it and it it would be an FAA violation for him to board.
Huffer cart arrived, I cranked one up while boarding, out in 10 minutes.

That is Captain's authority, not gate agents authority. Lemme ask you this....had I boarded in that situation when the gate agent wanted me to and 3 old lady's and an infant got heat stroke and needed medical attention because they were in a 115 degree oven for 35-40 minutes, who would have gotten in trouble? (hint, not the gate agent)"


I read: (deferred APU, no ground air, 95 degrees outside and probably 110 or so in the cabin and 120 in the cockpit). This is not unrealistic for these conditions with ANY airplane.

As CRJ200 operators around the globe will attest, this aircraft CANNOT be cooled in 10 minutes from these temperatures with an APU and two engines running. Forget one engine alone at the gate! Please. Once it gets as hot as you say, even an hour flight later it's still hot.

Now, since this thread was about weight and balance issues but has undertones regarding 'captains authority', it caught my attention so I responded. I am not questioning exactly what transpired on your flight, nor what all the details were, but according to your post, life was pretty HOT. And under the conditions you have described, it seemed like every story of a summer-NO APU operation I've heard before.

Here's where I differ. NO APU, NO Ground Air, Over 90 degrees? NO GO. Period. There is no magic wand/quick turn/leave one engine running procedure that will keep this bird cool on the ground. The company and the Captain can take steps prior to departure to mitigate these conditions. I am not attacking you; merely the condition. I make sure the arrival station has and will use ground air under these conditions or MUST they make other arrangements.

Did you know that MOST stations have working ground air? And that SOME of these stations don't use it because the rampers are HOT too and it's too much work. But if you PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN, when it is needed, amazingly cooling air comes! It should be hooked up UPON ARRIVAL at the captains request.

I will not watch beads of sweat drip from the passengers and crew to simply chock up another on time departure and justify the company's irresponsibility. Again, please don't take this the wrong way - but this condition is one of my BIG pet peeves with the regional sector - and I'm not attacking you, just the condition.

Regards,

SL

1. Per my second post, I indicated that I never said I did not ask for ground air, how do you know I never had it hooked up eventually before we boarded? I said I cranked an engine while boarding, not that I was using at as sole source of air.

2. I've been flying CRJ's for 7 summers where it's always 95 during the day and the APU has always cooled it off in 10 minutes enough to board comfortably. Just make sure all gaspers are open, windows shut. Plus you assumed it was a CRJ-200, I said nowhere in the post what airframe it was. You also assumed I boarded immediately while it was still hot on the airplane.

3. I never said how late we were waiting for the cabin to cool. I said huffer cart arrived, we boarded. I didn't need to say it took 40 minutes to get the huffer. I said the boarding proccess took 10 minutes. We were an 45 minutes late. Plenty of time to get it cool....

Again, this is "Airline pilot Forum", not "Lawyer Forum", which is why every single detail and timeline is not in the post, just enough detail to show that if the gate agent wants to board and be out on time, and the CA doesn't, we don't board...

On a side note, you should have seen the look on the FAA inspector's face when a JAN gate agent refused to let him on the jumpseat because she didn't know how to list him :)

Re-read my post CAREFULLY, then try again.

It sounds like you two are saying the samething but in different words. Which is right in my opinion.