Mesa Airlines... yea or nay?
 

What's with the negativity around Mesa? I'm about to apply with them, but I was wondering if there's a REAL Mesa pilot out there that can fill me in on all the negativity that's being spread about this company. Maybe it's my lack of experience that makes me ask this, but what could possibly be different between Skywest (which everybody seems to love) and Mesa. It's the same job, it are the same FAR's, with basically the same planes... . Please help out a broad that flies for food. Shanx!

quality of life and work rules.

Yea for a quick upgrade and pic time. Nay for a career. Lots of turnover. Make some life long friends. You will see them again.

Let me start by sayign Im NOT a Mesa pilot. But comparing Skywest and Mesa is like saying it must be the same to work for Northwest and Southwest. The operate under the same FARs doing the same job with basically the same planes (737 vs A319/320) so they must be the same right?

What makes the biggest difference is pay and work rules. You're 100% right, flying an RJ is pretty much the same no matter whos name is painted on the side. But the difference is how youre treated. I have heard from numerous Mesa pilots that management is basically there to screw over the employees. Ever wonder why you don't see very many 10 year Mesa captains? Either they won't admit to being 10 year captains at Mesa or they figured out how much working for Mesa sucks and moved on to better companies long ago.

I think rickair777 is a Mesa CRJ captain and a highly respected member of the boards (in my book). I'm sure he'll chime in on this one. Ask him about work rules and the infamous Mesa "standing overnight":D.

Bottom line: People make careers at companies like Skywest for a reason, no one wants to make Mesa a career (I hope). Mesa is what it is, a stepping stone.

One word: ORGANIZATION, J.O. (jonathan Ornstein) doesn't quite know what socks to wear with his suit, how do you think he's going to run an airline.

I just got accepted into the mesa pilot development program in farmington nm. I have 650tt and 30me time, and am currently instructing at a 141 school. Just wondering if someone could give me some advice on whether to pay to go to the program, or continue instructing. I would really appreciate and advice anyone has. Thank you.

See my reply to your same post in another thread.

HELL NO!!!
You are better off spending that money buying some multi-time from an FBO to get you to the magic 100 or getting your MEI and instructing at your 141 school

Flyhigh22
 

Flyhigh22,
Stay far away from Mesa's pay for training program! I am a former flight instructor for Mesa Pilot Development's program at Arizona State University. Their ASU program is a quality flight training program with good instruction and hard-working students. Their PFT program in Farmington, NM is crap! It's a major waste of your money, and it will hurt your career if people find out you are a PFT guy.
Just get 600TT and 50 multi, and you can start applying to companies like Scenic Airlines or King Airlines in Las Vegas. They always hire low time guys during the spring and summer. Hiring slows down a lot in the winter months. Both those companies will be hiring a lot in the upcoming months.
I used to work at Scenic, and it is a damn good company. They treat their pilots pretty well, they give you free lunch everyday, and you are home every night. Plus you make about what the average regional pays (more than instructing, but still not much). Good luck.

I would say that for a step Mesa isn't bad, as long as you keep in mind the work rules aren't the best. However, the ERJ is now becoming a very junior plane there. In fact it wouldn't suprise me too see someone upgrade to Captain on it in say a year and half. There is only about 400 people between new hires and erj captains. That said I wouldn't plan on staying there but to get what you need and move on isn't so bad.

To the other guy, DON"T GO TO MESA'S SCHOOL!!!!! Even the pilots at Mesa don't think much of those guys, so what do you think the rest of the industry would think of you. With your time, the money you would spend to get into that school could be spent on multi and you will have enough time to get a job at Great Lakes or something. I know the pay there is TERRIBLE but at least your not PAYING to be there. And of course you did it on your own while aquiring more flight experience to get there.
I feel like I've said that to almost 500 people this month already!:D

XtremeF150

I think the primary program is a waste of time and money, I can't believe people still go through that. The program cost like 45K and it's not even flat rate plus no CFI ratings or CFI job. Go through the PACE program. Your in-and-out and with the way MESA is hiring now, you will find a job. By the way how was interview process? I'm thinking of doing the PACE program maybe next year. How are the students and what is the genaral age group?

Another guy who just completed the Mesa PD said a few days ago on this forum that the Mesa pilots hired from the streets were very supportive of him and there is a good atmosphere between PD pilots and non PD pilots.

If I'm not mistaken.... you can apply to Cologan with 600 TT... not sure how much multi.. probably 100 TT... Scenic Air is a great idea... don't pay !!

Eagle eye you just summed up the problem with the airline industry with "a broad that flies for food."comment. You are slitting your own throat by working for nothing and Jonnie Rotten at MESA will pay you nothing and abuse the hell out of you. Don't any of you get it! The RJ's (aka.. REPLACEMENT JETS) are replacing mainline aircraft and pilots, and by doing so there will be fewer jobs flying big jets for you on down the road.You have got to look farther down the road. IOW that little RJ IS your "career". So if you want to fly little jets around for nothing and make nothing forever take the MESA job. :mad:

Do not do MAPD. Do CFI instead...it's a complicated decision, but read my other ranting posts for the details.

After you get 1000/100, Mesa is OK for quick upgrade (currently about 16 months for east coast ERJ CA). QOL is poor but hopefully that will be improved in the 2007 contract.

Despite what War Eagle said, Mesa is not the cause of mainline losing flying to RJ's. Economics were going to force that anyway, the only variable was WHO was going to fly the RJ's. The people at fault are the mainline pilots for being weak and shortsighted enough to allow their scope to erode to the point it's at now. THEY need to take their scope by the b@lls and secure all flying > 50 seats.

Much as I disaprove of low-time PFT pilots in airliners, blaming them for the RJ situation is moronic...they are young, inexperienced, clueless, and have no organization or leverage...all they know comes right out of a pilot academy glossy brochure. It's the mainline ALPA guys who should have seen this **** coming...you think I enjoy flying what is essentially a mainline jet for turboprop pay????

Thank you for all of the info on the MPD. I had my doubts about the program, but now i know that I definitly won't be attending the upcoming semester there and pulling out another loan. I appreciate all the information.

I wouldn't exactly say that...

Say what? Frankly, I don't beleive that you worked for ASU. You sound like a disgruntled Farmingtonite. If you had any first-hand knowledge of MAPD you'd know that Rich Castle, the Chief Flight Instructor, runs an efficient operation.

As a former MAPD instructor I can say that Mesa Airlines will hire almost anyone. The only ones they never hired were those that have skeletons in the closet (hell, they even hired people that shouldn't have been). PFT? It's BS to say that it will hurt your career. Recruiters don't care, they only look at your resume, not how you paid for it. The ONLY people I've ever heard anything negative about was scabs.

Alright, I guess I could take another approach on this MAPD thing. Here are some more HARD facts. Well start with the 1900 because it has the lowest mins for upgrade. By mins i mean the TT and multi you need to even hold the position, forget about your global senority. If you do get in (and you like to believe that everyone likes you) and are able to graduate the program, pass the interview, pass training, and not blunder your pc (pretty hard to do) you will be sitting in that 1900 FO seat for a long time trying to build the time to upgrade due to your hours. Note all those previous items are a big gamble for a 45k investment that WILL NOT yield another airline job. This means that the same guys your in training with will be upgrading and likely flying as your captain at least months but likely more than a year before you will.
Now that said if you are one of the dreaming 300 hour jet guys, the last time I checked you have to hit ICAO mins to hold a captain position on one of the RJ's. Remember to this is the absolute minimum time you can upgrade with regardless of your senority.
Think about this guys... Why do you think Mesa actually hires street captains on occasions. Its thanks to all those PFT's out there that have been working there long enough to upgrade but just don't qualify due to their hours. Leaving a shortage of Qualified captains.
I know its a long shot, but you guys just don't listen that well. :D

XtremeF150

Where lies the difference?????
 

Well thanks everybody for posting your replies. It's just that... nobody seems to have the answer to my question.

I'm not even interested in their training program. I'm just about ready to apply for a job with them and I was wondering what people mean by saying that the work rules and quality of life is bad. Where does that come from? Pilots working for Mesa can only fly 90 hours a month - same as pilots flying for a regional like Skywest. So in short, again, what exactly is everybody referring to when they say that Mesa is a bad place to work at and Skywest rules. Where lies the difference in working rules and quality of life at Mesa and others i.e. Skywest????????

Thx!

I repeat, ASK A MESA PILOT ABOUT THE STANDING OVERNIGHT!

Also, look at the payscale and time off for Mesa vs Skywest. That might at least start to answer your question. You're probably not getting many responses on here from Mesa pilots either because they don't want to admit they work at Mesa or because they can't afford a computer. Maybe hangout at your local welfare office and you might bump into a couple.:D

PS To all you Mesa pilots out there, Im just poking fun. I feel for you guys and hope you can fix your contract in 2007.:)

I was at MAPD as CFI (FMN) from August 04 to August 05. Would I know you?

And flyhigh - another option would be to WORK at MAPD, since you have you CFI, etc. They will hire people with your time, hands down. It's a 12 month contract. I left after just shy of 12 months and logged around 950 hours and 280 multi in that time, and grossed $27k, full benefits, etc. It's a good gig, check it out...

Pardon my ignorance on ICAO issues but why would you have to satisfy the ICAO ATP minimums for an RJ upgrade if you don't fly internationally? Also, I though ICAO ATPL minimums are very similar to the FAA ATP minimums anyway, no?

Mesa does extensive international operations, and they do not want to have to schedule those ops around Captains who are not ICAO ATP's, hence every Mesa CA must meet ICAO mins.

ICAO mins are similar, BUT the big difference is that the US requires only 250 PIC, while ICAO requires 1200 PIC. You can get 50% credit towards most of this PIC from 121 SIC, but that can take a while...four+ years seems common :eek:

I believe I can answer your questions...

1) Pay scale looks crappy for FOs, however if you come in with 1000+ then you can upgrade in less than 2 years...so you have to look at the CA payscale after 2 years.

2) Work rules are non-existant.

3) You are guaranteed 75 hours/month

4) You can fly 20-95+ hours per month depending on seniority and personal desires. It is not impossible to fly high 90's all year and then have December off (with pay).

5) Mesa only pays you when you are actually flying (and even then it's average, not actual block time). Many other airlines pay actual block times and have a duty rig where you get paid 1 hour for every 2 or 3 hours on duty, regardless of how much you fly.

6) If you want a fast upgrade, Mesa might be the answer.

7) If you want to spend your career at a regional Skywest, Horizon, and Air Whisket are probably better choices.

8) Mesa's contract is up in 2007, and the pilots are P*SSED OFF :mad: There is a good chance that there will be significant work rule enhancements in a couple years. If you're a gambling man (or girl), go to Mesa, upgrade, and then hopefully enjoy a better contract...

Freezinflyboy and Rickair,

thanks alot. That's what I was looking for...or maybe not actually! At least I know better now what they're talking about.

THX!

Thank you.

I have 1000hrs 150 multi I am a cfi and I was thinking of applying. Though I have a few questions.

1) What are junior bases?

2) What type of A/C would I most likley get on?

3) Is it commutable?

4) What is "standing overnight" mean?

5) Do you think I would have a decent shot on getting on with them? I have no violations or anything.

1) CRJ: IAD & ORD
ERJ: MCO
D8: GJT (this could change when D8 service begins on the east Coast this summer)
1900: Anywhere

2) CRJ most likely, ERJ second, D8 third, 1900 least likely. The D8 could be much more likely in the near to future due to expansion.

3) Standup Overnight is any overnight shift that provides less than legal (8 hour rest).
Some of these are not bad:
Depart PHX: 2200
Arrive Dest: 0030
Hotel: 0100-0730
Depart Dest: 0830
Arrive PHX: 1000
You got some decent sleep, you're done at 1000 with the rest of the day off (this does not count against your minimum days off)

Some standups are really ugly: Start at 1900, fly multiple legs ALL night long, sleep in the back of the airplane for between 0330-0530 at some outstation, then return to base at 1000. Go home and try to sleep.

4) I would estimate you have a very good chance, they need FO's right now. Study the gouge you can find on the internet and the ATP Gliem book.

Thanks rick, One more what east coast bases for the Dash are opening? I heard maybe JFK from the other thread anywhere else?

ORF
PHL
SYR
ALB
PVD
BDL
RIC
BWI

Thanks, Rick....

Does Mesa put you where you request to be based...or where they want you - So basically, do they even take into concideration where you live or don't they care? Is MCO an easy base to obtain?

Thanks

First off, like any other airline, they can only put you somewhere where an opening exists...the union would not allow them to move another morer senior pilot to accomodate you. In that regard airlines are absolutely fair, unlike most any other organization. There's no favoritism, @ss-kissing, or preferential treatment.

When a new hire class starts, the company will determine what aircraft and bases are available. They will assign aircraft type by the needs of the company. They will take into account your desires and experience level. If you have ATP+ times you are somewhat more likely to be assigned a turboprop, because they can upgrade you to Captain when needed.

Then seniority is assigned to the class, almost always by date of birth, although I think a very few airlines do a random lottery. BTW, do NOT show up one day late for class...they will usually let you start, but you will be last in seniority behind everyone who started the day before :eek:

Once seniority is assigned, everyone can bid for their desired bases. Usually two junior bases will have openings, so the most senior person will likely get his/her choice. The lowest/youngest (or the late dude) gets whatever is left over.

At Mesa, MCO is very easy to obtain if you are assigned the ERJ, since 90% of them are based there. If you assigned a different aircraft you have zero chance of getting MCO. If you are offered a job, you could at that time politely express an interest in the ERJ, and they might arrange to put you in a class which has ERJ's available. But don't push it...

Postions (The Flight Kind :)
 

LAX since they just ran a very large erj class, I don't know if they will run another right away. I have heard rumors of a dash 8 class 2nd week of april. I have also heard they are running another captains class on the 1900 on April 25th. This may or may not include street captains. If it does include the street capt's you must have 2500 TT and 350 multi as well as all ATP mins for the position. If you haven't flown 121 before though it can be VERY difficult to be up to speed to fly PIC in 121 in 6 weeks while also readying yourself for the Type ride.

rickair7777,

Thank you very much. I am not sure what I REALLY want to do. I am moving to FL so I would like to be based there or in the state somewhere for an easy commute. I understand that Mesa is more of a "stepping stone" for people, which is ok for right now. I have some corporate opportunities where I am going to be living, but you know those fancy companies require oogles and googles of flight time (preferably turbine) before they will look at you...

There is a high probability that CLT will open as a CRJ 900 base later this year. That would probably be commutable from FL.

Intheair10,
What are you talking about? I'm not going to bother insulting you, because it's a waste of time.
I did instruct at Mesa's ASU program in 2004. Pete Hayes was my boss and he is a good man. It was a really good program. The Farmington Pilot Development program was good too, but their PACE program in Farminton is a waste of money in my opinion.
A common misconception is that most people associate the university program with the PACE program. They're two completely different programs within the same company. The univeristy program is simply a flight school that takes ASU bachelor's students or San Juan college associate's students from private thru commercial multi and when they graduate, they get an interview with Mesa Airlines with about 300TT. Its similar to Embry Riddle and Perdue's university programs, but cheaper.
Not a bad deal! If you're going into a university aviation program, why not go to one where you can fly a regional jet with only 300 hours?
If you don't think the PACE program will hurt your career, then go ahead and do it. Just wait till you get to the majors where everybody is trying to get in. Why would they take a PFT guy when there are many other's to choose from? Those pilot interviewers are smart guys; they know that PFT programs are one reason their pay is being cut. And even if you do get a job, your fellow pilot's are going to resent you if you pay for training.

Well Rick,we did see it comming and had a great scope clause to keep MANAGEMENT from replacing us with YOU, but with a weak union in ALPO and threats of liquidation our ***** union leadership caved.As far as mainline being replaced by RJ's and I quote"It's the mainline ALPA guys who should have seen this **** coming...you think I enjoy flying what is essentially a mainline jet for turboprop pay????" You said it, YOU fly what is a mainline jet for nothing. I hope you really like it cause it's all you'll be flying for a really long time,and since at U our fleet has gone from over 400 planes and 6600 pilots down to 225 planes and 2700 pilots....wait haven't the RJ's been comming online at an exceedingly fast rate, oh but you said it,RJ's aren't replacing mainline. Enjoy your career..uh I mean job!;)

I'm one of the guys who is willing to hold out for better pay and benefits at the 50 seat level, I'm willing to walk and risk killing my company for it. I also declined the opportunity to fly 737s for lower-than-mainline rates. I will not however simply refuse to fly and quit aviation; I'd only be replaced by a 200 hour PFT wonderboy...

You need to watch your attitude, cuz there are plenty of RJ drivers who are willing to accept Buses and 737s on property for these reasons:
1) Immediate pay and prestige boost.
2) Their only other opportunity to fly narrow bodies is to quit and start over somewhere else with zero seniority for $30K a year...why do that when they can stay at their company, keep their seniority and longevity on the payscale, and not have to do probabation?

The ONLY reason for us to hold out is for the good of the industry...and the possibility of moving up some day. But when we get an attitude from a guy like you, well our brotherly love starts to stretch pretty thin...and it gets hard to make immediate sacrifices that will benefit everybody but us in the near-term.

You sir sound like a f*cking poster-child for management's grand plan: Divide & Conquer! You're leading the charge brother! Are you secretly working for JO, Neeleman, Steenland, etc? Come out to the forum to stir up some hate & discontent?:eek:

no no no
 

Im a mesa fo ive been here for 15 bid periods and have only held a line for 4 bids. I'm on the emb145 and have been screwed by managments moves 3 times and it sucks here 8 days off a bid and 20 working days at 16hrs a day love to enjoy that sh!t. If you do get hired here in the next coming months your going to the dash in the jfk area @ 18 bucks an hour good luck.