SIC type rating
 

Does a first officer in a brasilia get an SIC type on his certificate and if so, what does it say on it?

Yes. It says, "This type rating is completely worthless and is just a way for the government to get a few bucks from you."

It doesn't get you much.

yep thats about it. its only there because of a stupid ICAO rule a few years back, just like the fluent in english on your licensce.

But it looks cool. And that's what counts, right? :D

BTW, it's a Brasilia ;)

yep the way things are going with the industry, you could have 20 SIC types and not one PIC. Hey it still fills up the back, you can show it to all your riddle buddies

For the Metro mine stated " SA-227 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY"...so insert Brasilia and walla!

to actually answer your question it would say something like "EMB-120 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY" and then maybe circle to land VMC only. The last part is determined by the FAA, if they determine you plane can safely circle to land. also don't forget not all airlines have to give you and SIC type....even though its worth nothing. The only time they have to is if the airline has flights outside the country

It's worth it's weight in gold, should you go fly overseas where it actually matters, no matter what the type.

True, it's only use is overseas. Kind of silly, since the standards for an SIC type are simply completion of 121 sim training...there is nothing special or extra required. Those of us who were already FO's in 2004 got the type by virtue of signing an 8710.

We didnt get SIC Type for the EMB 120 at Skywest when I went thru training in April.

I don't think that it depends on whether your plane can safely circle to land. I think it depends if you actually conduct a circle to land maneuver on your check ride.

This is probably becuase we do not fly the Bro outside the US.

SIC type rating has the same value as a library card, it's not going to get you anywhere with the ladies :)

Correct. Many turboprop airline pilots do train for circle to land, since they operate into smaller airports which may not have the greatest selection of IAPs.

Right and who do you think approves your 121 training program and check ride

I'm not trying to argue exactly where it comes from but I have yet to see a jet be approved for anything other than VMC circle. I'm guessing it has something to do with money....like CAT II and CAT III

I've seen Citation, LearJet, Gulfstream, etc type ratings that do not have that limitation.

121 is the key word here...

Eagle did the circle in the sim on the CRJ to avoid having the limitation on the certificate. It is up the training department.

That doesn't make a difference. It has nothing to do with whether the plane can safely circle to land as the original poster said. It depends on whether the maneuver is conducted during the checkride.

This is very true...what I meant was that 121 is so very regulated, there are very few operators out there willing to spend the time and money...121!

As opposed to circling to land IMC? How does that work? Not cutting on you, just wondering about the verbage written on the back of my certificate.

Some circling minimums are BELOW VFR criteria. If the airline trained as well as is authorized to circle that type of aircraft at minimums that are below VFR, there would be no restriction on the type rating.

At my previous company, we trained to circle at the circling mins, later this was changed to "VMC only". You didn't get a new certificate changing your type, but per the FOM is was no longer allowed to perform a circle below VFR WX criteria.

Depends are where you might consider going. If it involves many of the Asian (especially the JCAB), and some European operators, they SPECIFICALLY require a type rating with "command endorsement", "command privileges", or "command qualified".

Also, in some places the circling restriction can be a showstopper.

I think what he is saying is that all circle to land maneuvers are done in "VMC" and so therefore why have a limitation on your certificate stating to do the maneuver in VMC as opposed to IMC as if that was a possibility. Or in other words, how do you do a circle to land in IMC since presumably if there is a limitation to "VMC ONLY" then it infers that you can do it in IMC.

Sorry for the thread creep, but I still don't get it. I would think "below VFR criteria" means IMC. In any case, obviously I wouldn't want to circle if I can't maintain visual contact with the runway I'm circling to. Our minimums are 1000-3 or published minimums, whichever is higher.

I confess I circle about three times a year in VMC to some runway in Latin America...

No, you only get the SIC type if you're PDX based seeing that we used to fly to Canada from SEA and we might start doing it again with Horizontal dropping their Q2's.

Guess it depends on how you are reading it. Yes, a circle has to be done VMC since you ACTUALLY have to be able to see the runway to do it. But like I said, some circling approaches have mins below what is defined as "VFR". So if you are circling on an approach that has an 800' MDA, and the ceiling is 900', you are BELOW VFR mins. And like I said, not ALL airlines train to fly the maneuver at the ACTUAL circling minima, only at what's "VFR" weather conditions, therefore the "VMC ONLY" stipulation.

Well, when you did your circle training was it at the circling mins or the 1000/3 you mentioned? I'm guess the latter, hence the restriction. Maybe the FAA should change the wording they use on our certificates.

SIC type is just for legalities to enter Cananda.

Yeah, but there is a difference between VFR and VMC. That is my point. It should really say VFR ONLY so as to no insinuate that you can circle in IMC and hence the "VMC ONLY" limitation.

Like I said, take it up with the FAA, maybe we can all spend $2 waiting on a new certificate to arrive in the mail with wording that is to your liking.

Or, just ask an APD or any other knowledgeable checkairman/instructor as to why it says what it does.

If you get a better answer then what I've given, by all means, hit us with it.

-Class B=1 sm and clear of clouds..... VMC?.

Well, thanks for trying but you gave us a non answer.

The fact that some circling approaches have mins below what is defined as "VFR" is beside the point since regardless of the actual circling mins, you still conduct the maneuver in "VMC ONLY." In your example that "not ALL airlines train to fly the manuever at the ACTUAL circling minima," what if an airline trained to do the manuever only to 800 and 2? Would their limitation say "VMC ONLY?" You would be below basic VFR weather minimums yet you would be still be able to theoretically conduct the manuever if the weather was at least that good and be in "VMC." That's according to your theory of course.

I know its all symantics but in this case the symantics does actually make a difference.

Like the other guy said, most (not all, but most) airlines are only allowed to execute circling when it's 1000/3 or better. You know, VFR WX criteria. Even if it's "marginal" per exact definition.

You mean VFR is 1 SM and clear of clouds. And yes, it would be VMC as well.

Read my previous post. At my previous carrier we were trained AND checked to circle at the circling mins. And I know were not the ONLY operator at that time to do so. So like I said, the type rating issued carried NO restriction. Also, in my previous post. Later, we were no longer trained nor authorized to execute a circle unless the WX was 1000/3 on jet equipment. And like I said, NO, a new type rating was not issued stating such. Just a revision to the FOM/FSM (what we call the CFM at XJT) stating such.

If you want to argue, at least give me the courtesy of reading what I wrote previously. And like I said, next time you are in the school house, ask an instructor and see what answer you get.

You sir, owe me a keyboard!;)

Not really arguing but just saying it was a non answer (ie asking me to ask someone else). I did read your post. Its irrelevant since you didn't get the type with the limitation to begin with. So if the company decided not to allow the manuever than obviously they are not going to slap the limitation on the actual certificate when they just write it into their ops manual.

The point remains that you cannot do the maneuver in IMC. The definition of VMC and VFR are two distinct things. So the point that you made in your posts that some circling minima are below basic VFR weather minimums is irrelevant. That is what I was trying to point out in my example of an airline training their pilots to conduct the manuver but only to 800 and 2. That is below basic VFR weather minimums and according to your logic they would not have the restriction on their certificate since that is below basic VFR weather.

You have to have... otherwise you wouldnt be in the rightseat.

Edited. Meant to use RA instead of DA.

Click here, go down to Visual Meteorological Conditions. It states a specfic "minma"

V

If the 121 operator defines VMC as being 1000/3, you know, VFR, then VMC complies with the 'minima" as it's outlaid by the FAA's defintion. I don't have the CFM/FOM handy as I'm at home so I can't readily look up how XJT defines it. But some OTHER airlines, and I'm guessing for a reason, use VMC to indicate VFR. Hence, the FAA using that specific wording on the type since it was obtained under a SPECIFIC operator's training program.

How so? If the airline trains to published circling minimums, how is that irrelevant? We're trained to CAT II mins, and every time I've done it, it was to one that had a specified RA on the plate. But we can ALSO execute a CAT II that does not have a RA (PIT I believe?). The IM NOW becomes the MAP. I've never been trained nor demonstrated this type of CATII, but I can STILL do it. Our CFM/FOM/OPSPECS carry no restrictions.

See above.