Pinnacle Post Merger
 

What is going to happen to PNCL after the Delta NW merger? If they are still around what will happen to all the 200's?

nothing....the fact that PNCL has 200's means nothing because of the scope clause that the majors have restricting regionals to a limited number of 76 seaters flying around. I believe that Delta is pretty much maxed out on the number of 76 seaters they can have due to their scope (I mean Delta post merger). As for PNCL...well some will say we are positioned very well...some will say that we are going out of business tonight...the fact is that we have a capacity agreement with Delta until 2017 and NW until 2016...anything beyond that is speculation...hope this helps

Comair and pinnacle will merge to become comical airlines

I think that same question is being asked but all the regionals for both Northwest and Delta. I do think however the wholly owned carriers will be at an advantage as they can save costs on redundant positions and departments i.e. what Northwest is already doing with Compass and Mesaba through the holding company. In addition.....why would Delta destroy an asset. The wholly owned regionals are worth money and can potentially be spun off so why destroy them before making money off of them. Anyone flying 200s is probably on the chopping block for the reason that there will be some many of them after the merger is complete. Also, everyone thinks that they are safe by their ironclad agreements. I'm sure Delta knows what it wants to do and already has lawyers hard at work ready to try and cut some of them off the Delta payroll.

This is just my thoughts but like everyone the answer to your question is pretty simple..........Who knows

its funny because i think the exact opposite. now is not a good time to be wholly owned. being owned by an airline that is about to merge is not a good thing right now. delta has already agreed that our contract will stand. it will still be good till 2017, and that is straight from andersons mouth in the recent press release. so if you want to cut back, but your contract carriers have contracts that must be honored, where do you start? you start with the people you have no contract with. you start with the people you don't have any obligations to. right now comair, mesaba, and compass have no contract to even call "ironclad". there is nothing there. it is all at the whim of what big daddy delta says.

and as far as our 200's go they will be around till we can get a 1 for 1 replacement with 900's. we operate the newest 200's in the country. i wouldn't doubt with oil going back down that they will continue to use the planes till the frames time out. we do over 33% of the lift for nwa. and it is all on 200's. i don't think daddy delta is ready to take that kind of a pay cut immediatly after the merger.

hang on... let me consult my "high level source" and I'll get right back with you...
http://www.chrisrue.com/funcave/graphics/mysticman.jpg

that guy is ok i guess,, i prefer to go straight to the source!

http://routingbyrumor.files.wordpres...agnificent.jpg

Now thats funny.

Why do we even waste our time thinking about stuff like this....NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING!!!!!!

What happens in the next year is soooo far out of my control, that it is a waste of my limited mental capacity to think about it.

The only control I have on 9E's future is my vote for the contract. Other than that, its waaaay above of my payscale.

Personal opinion using known facts.

1. PNCL will still operate the same number of airframes.
2. PNCL will exercise all -900 options for a 1:1 swap of -200s. No "growth" but more -900s.

Ah, no. Delta has a cap on how many 76-seaters can fly for them. That number has already been reached, so if there is a swap of 200's for 900's, then they will be flying elsewhere...

there is still 7 900's to be delivered in 09 that as of now don't have a home.
that would be a easy way to get rid of 7 more 200's

The market for the 50 pax jet aircraft is coming to a close if fuel cost stay high. Boyd group recently stated "don't get between a 50 pax regional jet and the desert as you will be run down". It is just not practical or feasible to operate this type of equipment in todays enviroment.....

So where does that leave things. I think you will see growth in the larger RJ type equipment as well as the 100-120 seat aircraft. These types of equipment have much lower CPSM. The limiting factor in numbers will be the scope langauge for each carrier and who will actually fly them.

One thing though.... Nobody has released the new scope agreement between the dl/nw pilots. Currently just about each side is maxed yet there are a bunch of option orders in the wings. Lots of speculation on both sides. I really wish mainline scope would be firm so that we can have a future above the regionals.

Exactly. Send the 900's to mainline. Let them fly em for mainline pay. The Majors need to start taking it back.

Airplanes.. YAAAAY!

http://www.achievement.org/achievers...e/mac0-011.jpg

Well, the JPWA could have taken it back, but the DL and NW pilots once again, decided to not expend their negotiating capital on the matter. Instead they'll cap it as status quo and continue to complain about RJs and how we as regional pilots are ruining their careers. This was the perfect time to solve many problems. Obviously you never get everything you want in bargaining, but if it were such a huge issue to mainliners they would have aggressively pursued the matter. Now we're left once again in the age of whipsaw, the race to the bottom and the cultivation of infighting.


Re: 50 seaters. No, there is no future for them flying routes like ATL-JFK, BOS-TPA or whatever crazy route certain airlines allocate them to. If they're deployed on shorter, thinner and less serviced routes where the pricing power remains, they can still be a tremendous asset to the airline. That's what they were designed for and not the post 9/11 panic deployment of the RJ.

The total number of 76 seaters in the JCBA was reduced. You will see less 76 seaters at the new DAL. In addition, there was a restriction to the max weight of the RJs. Only the Compass 175s are grandfathered in, and that lets them exceed that weight limit. You won't see more 76 seaters coming on at the new DAL.

I would imagine they basically just took the current scope from both airlines and joined them together? In other words the current fleet plan for both airlines and the 76 seat frames will go unchanged. It's the amount of frames beyond what is currently operated or will be operated will not change. In other words... NO OPTIONS will/can be taken up. Is that correct? If so... GOOD. Now, 70+ seat turboprops... those are the future IMO to replace 50 seat jets in certain markets.

this is the second person that told me this and i am now starting to believe it. Good for you guys. 900's at mainline or switch options from 900's to crj 1000's or ???

The number of 76 seaters can be increased by three for every new aircraft at mainline.

also pinnacle has a clause in their contract which gives nwa the option of removing 25 crj if it merges with another airline.

Yes and No... there is a clause for the removal of "up to 25" but there is a minimum number also. We currently are at the minimum number from my understanding. We had 17 more but they were given/awarded to XJ after the March 31st/no pilot contract deadline. I don't have the ASA and exact numbers in front of me but the numbers have been run (in the past) and we are at the current minimum for the NWA contract and in the merger language. That being said there is a 1:1 provision for larger RJ's so I don't now what the DL ASA contains in this arena because the ASA was recently renegotiated (with much hoopla).


If there is some known news on the new scope agreement with NW/DL that would be good to know. From what some folks are saying on here there appears to be a weight/number/ratio in play.

Max of 255 total 70+ seat "RJ's", OF WHICH 120 can be 76 seaters. Thats the new JCBA scope language. Also Johnso28 is right the compass 175s were grandfathered in as the only "RJ's" that can exceed the max takeoff weights in the scope language.

From what I read, and it was quite sometime ago the 25 are an add on to the other 17 that where already removed for a total of 42.

Doesn't by any means mean they will just that they can. Also the scope on the new delta contract has been posted if you do come research. The number of 76 seaters can be increased with additional aircraft at mainline.

Jcba Scope
 

Section 1
SCOPE
Amend Section 1 B. 28. to:
Delete all references to Alaska and AS hub to hub baseline ratios.
Amend Section 1 B. 40. to read:
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
a. a propeller-driven aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 70,000 or fewer pounds, and
b. a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 50 or fewer passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds, and
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat jets”), and
3
d. one of up to 120 jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The number of 76-seat jets may be increased above 120 by three 76-seat jets for each aircraft above the number of aircraft in the baseline fleet operated by the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) as of CBAID. The baseline fleet number will be 440+N, in which N is the number of aircraft (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares but not including permitted aircraft types) added to the Company’s baseline fleet from NWA. The number and type of all aircraft in the Company’s fleet on CBAID will be provided to the Association. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated and/or ordered by Northwest prior to CBAID may continue to be operated with up to a maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced. Exception one: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets for operation as 70-seat jets.
Exception two: In the event the flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 and LOA 2006-14 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats specified in Section 1 B. 40. d. will revert to 85.
f. a carrier that operates any of the 70- or 76-seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004, may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring process for pilots furloughed by the Company (i.e., a pilot furloughed by the Company will be given preferential hiring at a Delta Connection Carrier if he completes all new hire paper work, meets all new hire airman and medical qualifications, satisfies background checks and successfully completes an interview). The Company will offer preferential interviews for employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots under Section 1 B. 40. e., subject to the Company’s objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots, and subject to the Company’s hiring obligations under the NWA CBA LOAs as they appear in Attachment C (i.e. NWA LOA 2006-10, 2006-14, and 2008-01). A pilot hired by a Delta Connection Carrier operating any of the 70- or 76-seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 will not be required to resign his Delta seniority number in order to be hired by such carrier. Preferential hiring rights at Delta Connection Carriers for pilots furloughed by the Company provided herein will be in addition to any flow down rights such furloughed pilots may have pursuant to the NWA CBA LOAs as they appear in Attachment C (i.e. NWA LOA 2006-10, 2006-14, and 2008-01).

OOOhh!! This is the super senior line captain everyone is getting their info from right?? :)

thanks I knew someone could find it

yes, they can take up to 25 aircraft.. but that was contingent on us getting more. we are at the minimum amount of planes right now. if they wanted to take 25 planes they would have to give them to us, and then take them back. otherwise we are at the lowest amount of aircraft possible under the current asa with nwa.

Thanks superpilot, I was unaware that the scope language was out in the public yet... Guess I should have lurked in the majors forum.


Back to the thread.

I have no idea what will happen. I just show up, do my job, come home, complain to the wife (a pilot's duty), and look at my paycheck (welfare check) a couple times a month. After reading the scope language I have no idea on even speculation because I don't have all the numbers of the numerous regionals and fleet makeups to lay it all out. I may put it all up here later but I have a date with the gym.



One thing I do see.... How can compass exercise options when they are only allowed 36 of the 175's? I guess we can hope the next round of the jungle jets will be the bigger ones at mainline! With flowup Compass may have a mixed blessing.

I honestly feel "safer" at 9E than I would at Compass or Mesaba...if our NWA language holds up, the merged company would basically end up with a couple of wholly owned carriers (Comair & Mesaba) who have 900s, and a few well-performing regionals with lots of 50s and actual legal contracts stating minimum numbers of a/c allowed (Skywest, ASA, 9E). If one were in management wondering what to do, it would be the least costly and least hassle option to simply swap XJ and Comair 900s onto 9E, ASA/Skywest, and park the 200s in the desert....since there are no protections I know of at XJ or Comair protecting from such an action.

I'm not saying that's a good thing, or I wish that to happen, just making an observation...there is going to be a surplus of 200s at carriers with contractual minimums, and there are going to be a good chunk of 900s at a place that has zero contractual minimums or protections.

9E only had 15 planes transferred to XJ, not 17. We already had 2 CRJs that were delivered new to us in 2005. As for who's safer - a wholly owned or a cost + contractor? It's a matter of conjecture. The folks at the wholly owned think they're safer for efficiency, infastructure, performance, fuel cost and pride reasons. The folks at the cost plus contractors feel safer because of efficiency, infastructure, performance, fuel cost, contract and pride reasons. In the end, it's all up to the mother ship and until their cards are shown, nobody knows.

Well stated.

Ditto. Only time will tell.

Doesn't Shuttle America fly some 175's for DL? (I thought they were swapping out the DL 170's for 175's)...What will happen to those are those grandfathered also?

Well I am no expert on E175's but someone mentioned before that there are different versions of E175's with different MATOW. The compass 175's were over the weight allowed which is why they were grandfathered. If there is a version of the 175 that has a weight below that than it can be swapped out. Now the question would be is if the 120 76 seaters has been reached then the 175's that would be swapped will have to be 70 seaters. Maybe someone else with more knowledge on the E175's will chime in on the different versions.

Comair is leasing our 900's not Delta, so no they can not be given to 9E, ASA or SkyWest. I'm not sure about XJ's -900's as to if Northwest or Mesaba are paying those leases. Now the Freedom -900's will always be up for grabs unless Delta passes the leases on to Comair. No aircraft leased or owned by a wholly owned can be sold or transfered by the parent company. All the aircraft Comair has lost were all leased by Delta or were at the end of their leases initited by Comair.

alrighty.... here is what I am coming up with... I am wanting other folks to correct any figures I have wrong- not bash!



Pinnacle 16 CR9's @ 76 seats, 126 CR2 @ 50 seats
Mesaba 49 Saab, 36 CR9@ 76 seats
Compass 36 EMB175 @76 (grandfathered)
ASA 110 CR2, 11 ATR, 110 CR2, 39 CR7 @ 70
SkyWest ? CR2, 17 CR9 @ 70 seats (according to skywest.com?)
Republic (shuttle) 44 Emb170 @ 70 seats, EMB 175 in 70/76?
Mesa losing 14 CRJ @ 76- (We know comair gets em- just getting a tally here)
Comair 128 CR2, 15 CR7 @ 70, 13 CR9 @76



totals= Trprop 60
CR2= lots and lots (380 not counting mesa and any others I may have listed in the above list- these are 50 seats and not in the scope issue at hand)
70 seat class= 115
76 seat= 79 ( not counting compass and including mesa's 14 up for speculation)



255- 115-79= 61 51+ market available.
120- 79= 41 in the 76 seat class
only 60 tprops currently- limited to 70K# or 70 pax. Not sure if the Q400 can fit in there.




If 76 seaters are "maxed" at 120 per scope there is an option for 20 more at the 70 seat market. Please add/correct anything wrong here. This is 2 pilots running math with help of Jack Daniels.....

JD at 3 in the afternoon, must of been on helluva day:D

You have no idea.... Law and order marathon in HD only helps pass the time. Just don't tell the wife- I told her I was "busy".

Nope, it's just called a day off.:D

I thikn we at Comair have only like 116 or less 50 seaters