Mesa TA
 

I was just lurking in the HUB and see a pole showing only a 70% NO to 30% YES verdict. How on earth can 30% of the peeps be voting YES? :eek: Especially when most of the pilots on the Hub are very anti Mesa.

If this TA passes I'll be severly annoyed.

This is a quote from the hub that one of my fellow colleagues posted.

I wonder what new information he found out that made him change his mind? As I can't seem to get registered on the hub I've got no way of asking him. Has anybody been able to register at the hub recently? I'm resigned to lurking as I've never received any registration email and no response from the board webmaster. :(

Anyway in addition, I heard a few people in the crew room in ORD discussing how they would be voting yes and saying it isn't really that bad!!! I just hope they have read it and understood what it will mean. I'm convinced whatever quality of life I have now will be severly dimished by this new contract.

I'm worried this contract may pass, but I don't understand why? :confused:

Fear-mongering. The pilots and management read all these forums and they hear rumors too. All this talk of bankruptcy and what-not has the Mesa pilot group willing to accept whatever for fear of thier jobs.

Fear. How does voting yes on this contract save the company? Because JO says so.

Anybody who thinks that a couple of dollars on pilot pay plus a couple work rules makes a difference is kidding themselves.

KEEP IN MIND:
All the regionals (and majors, for that matter) are operating the same equipment out of mostly the same airports. That means that your cost should be fixed! You are just as capable of efficiency as all the other airlines out there, therefore the cost of the pilot is NOT the variable. The difference in costs is elsewhere: in management skill and efficiency. If bringing you up to par with other airlines "breaks the camels back", then management is taking too much for themselves.

The rational pilot should know that this TA has nothing to do with losing our jobs or not. I'll be very angry about the ignorance of our pilot group if this passes. You know I've not been in this industry as long as most of our pilots so you'd think I'd be the one with the rose tinted specs! Maybe it's because most of the people that work here are 10 years younger than I and just don't get the importance of this vote.

You know we just don't deserve to be paid more than minimum wage if this TA passes because we are just too dumb.

I think most understand. From what I've seen the last few months I'd be very surprised if it isn't a landslide NO. The junior guys might ultimately buy into the fear to keep the status quo, however most know that a NO will not mean the end of the company.

And JO is going to get his money whether the company goes bankrupt or not. Mesa Pilots, take this guy to the cleaners. I'd venture to say he's bought at least 3 motorcycles on your guy's dime.

Mesa pilots do deserve much better, HOWEVER, as someone stated earlier, a lot of them are young and buy into whatecer someone in management tells them, even if it is a blatant lie. They see the job market and after having been told for a year now that any better conditions would break Mesa (even though the older generation knows it all JO and his team of scum). This is why there would be a chance for the TA to pass. F-E-A-R. For pilots, when things are good, they are good, but when they are bad, we are our own worst enemies and we start our own fires. JUST SAY NO! Worst case scenario, you guys at mesa will move on to much better things. Good luck.

As those have said. This TA will not drive the company into bankruptcy if it is passed or isn't passed.

If it passes, then so be it. Life will continue. If it doesn't, it'll be back to the drawing board, and guess what - life will continue as well.

Read it for yourself, and vote yes or no based on what you want. I'd almost rather you didn't vote if you don't fully understand it. But if you read it, and don't like it, vote no. If you do like it, vote yes. Personally, I'm torn between the issue. I don't know how I'll vote yet, but I'm leaning toward the YES vote, with strong reservations. I just don't know yet. I'm still mulling it over, thinking of possible circumstances. Just the thought that I have to think so deeply about how bad my fellow pilots and I can get screwed over by the company tells me I should vote NO until I see something that is IRONCLAD.

I just don't know yet. Ugh. :(

What the???:confused: It's very simple reread your post you know the right answer. The whole bankruptcy threat has been cleverly orchestrated by mgt just wait, watch and you will see.

Vote NO!
 

Dublinflyer,

To help my understanding of the contract and the fact that I may have missed something can you convince me why I should vote yes instead of no?

Perhaps we could debate the issues in this thread to help eveyones understanding.

Oh I'm very well aware of that. The only time I think we will file for bankruptcy is if we lose the court case with DL - which by the way is NOT scheduled yet. It's in the process of being scheduled, and we'll probably know more in the early part of 2009.

Happy thanksgiving to all my colleagues by the way. I'm not up at 4am for my own benefit.... time to go enjoy my holiday.... Mesa style!!! :p :rolleyes:

Yeah sure. I don't have time now. I will get home tonight, so if I have time tonight, or tomorrow sometime I will.

Happy Turkey Day Airfix! :)

Delta's appeal to the injunction Mesa got in May is set for court the end of January. I believe the 27th or so....

That appeal and the money they owe will cause the bankruptcy, not the better work rules little extra pay the pilots are asking for. Stupid JO.

I'll be angry for those of you too ignorant to know when you are being insulted.
 

Professional MESA Pilots,

This so-called "TA" is actually a very poorly written, substandard pamphlet posing as a labor contract and management knows it. They know that over half of the pilot group is not familiar with the history of labor negotiations. They are hoping that your inexperience with the Railway Labor Act and contract negotiating in general will allow them to lock you into working for many years under another weak and unenforceable labor contract. Don't reward bad management by accepting this "handout" pretending to be a contract. I'll be angry for those of you too ignorant to know when you are being insulted. You will be laughed at by the industry and you don't even realize it.

What most of you who are afraid don't understand is that management is fully prepared for a negotiation. Don't worry; they will come back to the negotiating table if they want to survive. They threw this trash at us while simultaneously spreading fear hoping that we would quickly jump on it without thinking. The fear tactics being implemented are standard. Remember, it is perfectly normal and accepted practice for a labor group to turn down the first offer. That's why they are called negotiations. Don't be afraid to send this back. We need a professional contract written by professionals for professionals. We don't want a contract that will be cost prohibitive, we simply want the airline to be adequately staffed, employees equipped, properly trained and treated respectfully. Force management to invest in this company. Reverse the poor habits of this greed driven outfit. This could easily be accomplished if we stand firm and demand it.

Go review some examples of airline pilot contracts here:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,17/Itemid,112.html

This is your chance to send this insult back so that we will have the opportunity to renegotiate and vote on a professionally written contract.

VOTE NO!

Winglet

After thinking it through, I've decided to vote no. I'm used to getting the shaft this way. I'd rather not have to get used to another way. I know they can do better, and I can wait for it. They need to get with the program, and give us a decent contract. So I was undecided, but leaning towards yes..... but I think I'm definitely a NO now. They can take it and shove it where the sun doesn't shine!

Yeah what he said.

There you go now spread the word in the crewroom. Just remember "the walls have ears." Especially at corporate.

I will be voting a Big NO-but many other will be voting yes on this TA simply because of the "current finacial conditions" of Mesa=fear of going out of business. This means the Mesa kids will endure another sub-standard contract until 2012. Enjoy :eek:

I doubt this TA has a lot of effect on mesa filing BK or them shutting down. The non deferrable money due along with the lawsuits in Jan and Feb has the potential to close the company. This TA is about getting more days off and a few dollars more in pay, how is that going to put the company out of business? From what I've seen and heard, it's going to be a big NO vote.

Ok enough with the "non deferrable money" crap. I agree with you on the point that this TA will NOT have any effect on wether or not this company files BK, but the money due IS deferrable. In FACT it is not even due until 2023 and 2024. This is pulled right from the Mesa Air Group 10-Q filed 8/18/2008. I am not going after you but after hearing this same load all over this forum I am tired of it. I don't like JO or his tactics anymore than the next guy but at least have the facts straight. Once again anything and everything is negotiable!

10-Q
While the Company's cash flows from operations and its available capital have been sufficient to meet its current operating expenses, lease obligations and debt service requirements to date, the Company's future cash flow from operations and available capital will be negatively impacted by (i) our ability to secure more flexible credit terms from certain of the Company's other key vendors; (ii) reduced cash payments from our code share partners related to disputed items under our agreements; (iii) the $23.2 million in aggregate remaining principal amount of senior convertible notes due 2023, which the Company may be required to repurchase on January 31, 2009 in accordance with the forbearance agreements described above; (iv) the $77.8 million in aggregate principal amount of senior convertible notes due 2024, which the Company may be required to repurchase on February 10, 2009

Once again vote how you feel driven just like I will but get the facts straight. I don't think this TA is great or even good but I am not making my decision on wether or not Mesa might file for BK. If they do they will come back out the other side. They will be smaller and hopefully lacking a few upper managers with the initials JO and ML but they will come out.

Correct Dashrash. And just another point too. I think even if the bonds were not negotiable... I think they would become negotiable. I mean, Bombardier knows we are in a financial crisis, and they also know if we go into C11 or worse, Ch. 7 that they would have a hard time getting their money (if they ever got it). I think they would probably make some kind of a deal with JO about this.

The whole financial stuff kind of confuses me. I'd be lying if I said I didn't worry about it, but at the same time I'm just trying to go to work, do a good job, and go on with life. If the worst happens, it happens.

I will also check on the DL court case this coming week and update you all.

I Would Vote "Yes"...
 

...but I am not eligible to vote; I have not completed one year of service at Mesa and am still an apprentice member of ALPA.

I looked at the Comair contract. It seems that a big difference between the MAG TA and the Comair contract is that Comair has more specific language in many areas. Specifics about how to build a schedule, how to transition from line flying to training events, when the company may contact pilots on layovers, etc. I would like to see our MEC continue to work on making future CBA's as detail-specific as this one.

However, I feel that the MAG TA contains improvements significant enough that a "yes" vote is warranted. The TA would last about 2 years, quite short for an airline industry CBA. I think MAG pilots should take the significant improvements that are worth a "yes" vote and encourage the MEC to work on inserting more specific language in the next contract.

Pay will be increased by the change from segment time pay to "block or better" pay. Days off will increase from 104 to 132 per year for reservists. Minimum days off for line-holders will increase from 130 to 132 per year. The introduction of PBS will give pilots more control over their schedules.

Anyone looking for advice on how to vote should learn as much as possible about the person giving the advice. Again, I am relatively new to Mesa and am not eligible to vote. I am a reserve lineholder and stand to have my time off significantly increased under the TA. My Mesa experience has been positive. I fly the Dash and we have not been hammered quite like the jet pilots. So far, anytime I have asked the company for a favor (an extra day off after a training event; lodging in company housing for training in my domicile), they have given it to me. I have not lived through the junior assignment horrors of '05-'08 and the other bad times more veteran MAG pilots have dealt with. I fully understand that my perspective is different than many of my brothers and sisters.

Some describe the TA as still being below industry standards. I do not see this. Mesa pay rates are comparable to "good regionals". The TA brings days off in line with "good regionals". Currently airlines are furloughing and burning through cash reserves. The chances of winning big pay raises and other great things right now are zero.

Be aware that people on this forum advocating a certain vote on the Mesa TA may have their own agenda and may not even work at Mesa. Some current and former Mesa pilots may remain so angry at the company that they have adopted a "scorched earth" outlook and would urge a no vote on any TA.

I am not bitter I left on very good terms. So no scorched earth agenda here. But you are new and have not flown camping trips on the CRJ etc. The Dash side is a very small house so your perspective is unfortunately limited. The pilots finally have the upper hand I wish my fellow bro's the best & know you can do better.

The vast majority of experienced mesa pilots don't work at mesa...and there is a very good reason for that! JO depends on clueless newbies to advance his agenda at every turn.

Pay rates and days off are 100% MEANINGLESS without work rules and airtight language to enforce them. "Hourly Payrates" has been the battle cry of mesa apologists for years.

Sounds like you're OK with your little corner of MAG...so to heck with the jet guys, right? It's just as well that you can't vote.

If the TA isn't ratified with only 2 weeks of operating capital left what options do pilots have?

How could you possibly know exactly how much cash Mesa has. Did you buy a third of Mesa stock for 10 dollars?

I do not see how we have the "upper hand". The job market is full of very qualified pilots. MAG may lose DAL flying, may have to pay out large sums of money, and has at least one major partner in serious trouble (USA). I do not see MAG pilots being in a position to demand significant pay raises. I think that the improvements in the TA are pretty good considering the state of the industry.

The Dash Whisperer

They're saying you have the upper hand because the management needs this TA more than the pilots do. That means the pilots have better leverage, even though this TA is a small issue in face of other problems, if management can come into agreement with their pilots it's going to add stability and some reassurance to investors. We're all hoping that you mesa guys can get something better or at least stand up for your profession. I admit I don't know much about the TA but the're saying it's worse than the current one minus the extra days off for reserve and a little more pay for less bid periods. Nothing else.

rickair7777 said;

"JO depends on clueless newbies to advance his agenda at every turn."

JO leaves nothing to chance. He clones us on a ranch in Nevada. At least once a quarter a new batch of willing dupes is thawed.

I have no direct knowledge of JO or his agenda, good or bad. I have heard Mesa and sometimes its pilot referred to as "bottom-feeders" or in other bilious terms. I remain curious why it seems that Mesa is singled out for extra venom when it engages in practices common to the industry. RAH is taking over B717/DC9 routes (Midwest Airlines) and preparing to compete on B717/DC9 routes (HAL) with similiar sized aircraft flown at lower rates of pay. I have not seen a similiar level of scorn for this company.

"Pay rates and days off are 100% MEANINGLESS without work rules and airtight language to enforce them."

The TA would improve pay by conversion to "block or better". Minimum days off would increase. "Junior assignments" would be replaced with "junior availability"; it would be up to the employee to determine if he or she is available.

"Sounds like you're OK with your little corner of MAG...so to heck with the jet guys, right? It's just as well that you can't vote."

Oh, I might say "to heck" with your opinion if I knew more about you and your motivation. I would not say that to my fellow MAG pilots. I have been up front about why I hope the TA is approved and I have acknowledged that my Mesa experience is different from some others. I encourage everyone to think about their decision carefully. Voting "no" because one is still angry about last year's cancelled vacations and junior assignments will not get back that lost time or prevent it from happening in the future.

The Dash Whisperer
"Vote early and vote often"

Let's see why you guys are referred to as bottom feeders:

Average Block
Lowest time off in the industry
Lowest pay rates in the industry
Junior Manning
Infamous stand up overnights on the airplane (understand that doesn't happen now)
Freedom A list
Pay For Training (Mesa Pilot Development)

I can't defend what RAH's management is doing any better than you can defend the management at Mesa for the flying being done. However they should not be rewarded for their stupidity (China, GO!) etc. JO has been quoted as saying that as long as pilots show up to training he's paying too much. How much would his quality of life go down if they took a few million out of his payroll and spread it around to the other employees?

To say that a no vote wouldn't protect those items from happening in the future is pure ignorance. You have a chance to drastically improve the working conditions there by voting no for a contract that doesn't even compete with most other regionals out there with pilots working on years-old CBAs. Your negotiating committee has the opportunity to get specific language that prevents those items you brought up from happening again and your pilot group has a chance to let management know that they aren't going to put up with it any more.

Consider this: If mesa was such a great company to work for they would not have lost 700+ pilots last year and there's no way you would have gotten a direct entry captain position because there would be more than enough pilots there meeting the requirements to be a captain.

Always excuses.. the last time it was Freedom, this time it's bankruptcy, what will be the excuse next time?

Pilotpip said; "Let's see why you guys are referred to as bottom feeders:"

"Average Block" New TA will be block or better.

"Lowest time off in the industry" TA is 11/11. The airline profiles on APC that have info on this were all 12/11. Does not mean that some other airlines are not lower.

"Lowest pay rates in the industry" Not true based on APC profiles.

"Junior Manning" Changed in the TA. Occurs at other airlines.

"Infamous stand up overnights on the airplane (understand that doesn't happen now)" Yeah, no longer happens, remove from your list.

"Freedom A list" Before my time, the Mesa MEC fought pitched battles to eliminate this non-union alter ego. They had to swallow some bitter pills at the bargaining table to get this done. Strategically, I think it was the right decision. MAG pilots would be in a much worse position today if the MEC had not held firm then.

"Pay For Training (Mesa Pilot Development)" This is a straw man. MPD is not the only way into the MAG hiring pool. It is an ab initio program similiar to affiliations that other regionals have had with colleges and large flight training facilities. MPD provides the training and experience pilots need to meet MAG hiring qualifications. Mesa pilots do not pay for their Mesa training. They are paid at the jet FO rate and are provided single-occupancy rooms.

"...they should not be rewarded for their stupidity (China, GO!) etc."

I am not sure they have been rewarded. Stock price is down and the cash reserves have evaporated. The company is in trouble. Who hurts the most when bad business decisions are made, the execs, the shareholders, or the laid-off employees?

"JO has been quoted as saying that as long as pilots show up to training he's paying too much. How much would his quality of life go down if they took a few million out of his payroll and spread it around to the other employees?"

Another CEO making an outrageous, anti-employee statement. Despite facing this attitude at the bargaining table, our MEC has delivered a TA that insures pay parity with other carriers. I have no idea what JO makes as compared to other airline executives so I cannot answer your question.

"To say that a no vote wouldn't protect those items from happening in the future is pure ignorance. You have a chance to drastically improve the working conditions there by voting no for a contract that doesn't even compete with most other regionals out there with pilots working on years-old CBAs. Your negotiating committee has the opportunity to get specific language that prevents those items you brought up from happening again and your pilot group has a chance to let management know that they aren't going to put up with it any more."

I feel that the TA does address important issues and improves working conditions. It contains pay and time off improvements that are decent considering the state of the industry.

"Consider this: If mesa was such a great company to work for they would not have lost 700+ pilots last year and there's no way you would have gotten a direct entry captain position because there would be more than enough pilots there meeting the requirements to be a captain"

Mesa has had trouble keeping pilots. Many left last year because Mesa is not the best place to work and many left because the majors were doing a lot of hiring. I was not a direct entry captain. I chose Mesa over a "good regional" because I wanted my seniority to improve quickly, the Dash bases are reasonable commutes to my home, and for the possibility of a quick upgrade.

The Dash Whisperer

That's some good koolaid Dash, as it's been said, good thing you can't vote.

You are the lowest paid in the industry. Perhaps not the lowest hourly pay rate, but when you consider how many hours credit that average block costs you...

Oh, and how many days can they take away from you through J/M? What happens next time staffing is bad and they start taking away vacation? I haven't heard anything about minimum staffing levels to prevent that.

PBS is great when the pilots have control of it. The problem is you won't. PBS wouldn't give you guys anything with management in control.

The worst part about this TA is that even without seeing the pay rates themselves, the QOL improvements bring Mesa on par with some (not all) other carriers at best. Which means that the next round of contracts will put them back on the bottom as everybody else gets better.

I don't know why I'm arguing with you. Of the mesa pilots on here you seem to be saying yes. Thankfully, you can't vote.

Oh, and while you've moved up fast, you might as well get comfy. What airlines are hiring right now and will be any time in the next 5 years?

The DashRocks,

With respect I have to disagree with your opinion. You are saying that this contract will be better than the exisiting, but for who and how?

Line guarantee, is no doubt a good thing about this contract that will affect all pilots. However there is no guarantee that the company will create lines more than minimum guarantee. Therefore this does not constitute a pay increase.

Cancellation pay, along with line guarantee, is the second of only two definitive pluses for this contract. It will affect all pilots positively.

Block or better per ALPA's own comments will affect pilots in ORD and JFK more than other bases and may constitute up to 20% raise for those domiciles. What about the people in other domiciles. Don't those pilots also deserve a pay raise and don't they work equally as hard as those in ORD and JFK?

FO's get a 2% or so pay rise in 2010, don't captains deserve a pay raise too?

Then again look at inflation, is 2% really a pay raise? Arguably no.

We lose our current 150% premium pay for JA. You are correct the JA rules changed. They changed for the worse. Under the new contract I don't ever expect to have the company pay the 200% JA pay. Let's face it the only time we got JA'd as when there was insufficient reserve coverage. Oh look, when there is insufficient reserve coverage it now becomes a legal JA. No need to pay 200%. What about the Harris Award. Any monkeying with our schedules at any time required JA pay. Did we just give this away?

Pro rated days off table. Under old system if I had 7 days vacation I could still have at least 9 days off (28 day bid). Now I only get 9 days (31 day bid) or 8 days (30 day bid) off. Why should vacation cut into your days off? I heard ALPA say it is to do with PBS but surely you could just load each week of vacation as 21 hours (or 3 hours per day) into PBS and still keep the 11 day off and reduce our number of hours PBS tries to assign by the number of hours we were on vacation

QOL is a wash and is not improved under the new contract. For it to improve I need to be able to trade partial pairings to make my line commutable on the front and back of my trip. This new contract makes no binding regulations to permit me to do this. I need to have a guarantee that open time will remain available to line holders for a period of time after the SAP to permit me to make a trip commutable. How will QOL be improved for anybody under this contract especially considering the way pairigns are constructed is unchanged?

The bottom line. This contract only increases pay for a portion of the pilots and will not improve quality of life for most.

I too could have gone to a better regional but chose Mesa like you for the quick upgrade in order to get my PIC then move on. However as you know the days of the quick upgrade are gone. How will you feel about working under this TA for another 5 or more years?

Ignore all the Mesa bankruptcy stuff. It is irrelevant. What is relevant is what are we worth? What responsibility do we have? What should we be getting paid? How much rest and time off should we get given our responsibilities and our time away from home?

Lets fight for what we are worth now not what we may be worth in two years. Lets fight for everyone in the pilot group not just a select few. Lets fight for what we need if we were all to be here in 10 years time.

The language in this contract is just not good enough. It could have been written better by a 15 year old. I'd be embarassed to show anybody this TA and call it a contract.

It is just not good enough and we deserve better not only for us but for the people that come after us.

Stand up and vote no. Vote for what is right. Please don't be selfish. Your vote will affect every pilot at Mesa now and in the future.

What is the worst that can happen if we vote no? We stay with the current contract for a bit longer. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Vote no, please.

Dash man you have enough brain to put together this well thought out rebuttal. (that's a compliment seriously) Many items I would have stated myself. Many others have their secret "anger" agendas towards MAG & it's pilots. (it's easy to pick them out) For whatever reason it maybe jealousy over quick upgrades, career progression or lack thereof, lost jobs etc. You see it's easy to pick on the guy who doesn't strike back. And MAG guys don't very often on this forum. (for various reasons) Now is the chance for you guys to obtain a respectable contract, so that the next time some "blowhard" comes on here complaining about xxxxx You can tell e'm to pi$$ off and check their info. So my agenda, I just wanna see my buds improve their livelihood. Just do yourself a favor talk with the guys in the crewroom and gain their perspective. And don't limit it to 1 type A/C seniority or rank talk with e'm all and especially don't limit it to what alpo has to say. For whatever reason they seem to like selling us down the river.

Agreed.

Dash, I really want to see you guys get a much better contract. It would be a win for you, and really a win for all of us. There's no reason you guys should be putting up with the BS you put up with. This TA has way too many holes in it and doesn't come close to addressing the QOL issues you guys have compared to other companies.

Mesa going under would probably mean me getting my job back in short order. I don't want to see you guys on the street any more than I want to be on the street. To wish that on somebody is beyond stupid. However the undercutting has to stop somewhere. Quick upgrades don't do anything for anybody if there isn't anywhere better to go.