Removing Circling Limitations using Company Sims
 

This is mostly directed at those familiar with the XJ training deparment, but I think it's applicable to a lot of other operations issuing SIC type ratings with circling limitations.

Does does anyone know if the Mesaba training department has authorization to conduct the training to remove the circling limitations after a type rating? I know they certainly won't pay for it (why should they pay for something that probably isn't allowed by ops-specs)...but I was wondering if I could theoretically pay for some work in the company training dept. to remove the limitation or if I'd have to go to factory training, Flight Safety, yada yada. Just curious; I'm kind of finicky about my certs, and if I have a type rating I don't want the limitations...even if the limitation has no effect on current operations. Thanks in advance; I searched other threads that touched on the limitation itself, but I think my question is a little too specific.

Just wait until you upgrade, they'll pay for it then. I wouldn't blow $1,000/hr for sim/instructor to take a PIC type jeopardy ride. If you're going to pay for a ride, do it in a 73.

Yeah, I just posted on a similar question. All I can say is "Good idea." I'm told that if you ever work in China they won't validate your license with that restriction - you'll have to get it taken off.

I doubt if any training is required by FAR (although you may want some), but I don't know for sure. If not I think it would be a matter of just doing the circling approach while a DPE is observing. It'd be nice to hear from someone who has actually had the restriction removed to find out exactly what is involved.


If you're CERTAIN that's true, then fine - there's your answer. Actually, most places won't, for various reasons - at least not for free.

I still don't know that XJ will pay for it on a PIC ride...maybe if they're generous and the training dept is authorized to do it...

I just found this on on the certificate of a Saab captain I know...

SF-340 CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY.

Still there! Drat.

So, I can't imagine they do it by default for upgrade checks. Dunno.

Agreed on removing the limitation for foreign validation...Beyond that, I just like having a clean cert without restrictions.

In the Part 142 environment, you can't just walk into a sim with an examiner and do this. You are required to go through an approved course and then undergo the sim check. It can, however, be very short. At CAE we have a class that is in and out in 1 day. Part 121? Hell, you can do whatever you can get approved I guess. This IS big though...if you're going overseas to fly, you gotta get the restriction removed.

If you are interested in more precise information, hit me up via PM and we can discuss.

Z

3 out of 6 types of mine are CIRC APCH - VMC ONLY

Why worry about the restriction? I personally like it rather than to try flying a circle approach in crummy weather, I can only do it when the weather is good. Fine by me, I haven't done a circle approach since my on-demand freight days many moons ago. Wish the restriction was there on some of those dark and stormy nights.

if you take a PIC check ride, you will still have the VMC circling restriction. Unless your company is willing to do it on your next PC you will have to pay a sim session out of pocket to get it done.

I know a company in MIA does it for the A320. It's a 1Hr thing and costs around $500. It might be worth it if you can get a well paid job oversea. From what I understand the Asian countries are pretty big about removing the restriction. I know China and Vietnam don't want it!!!!

Anyway, how stupid is that to have a VMC circle as a RESTRICTION.....would anybody do a circling maneuver in IMC???

The fact that your even contemplating shelling out cash to remove a restriction that most 121 pilots have on their certificate is appalling. Why put yourself into an unnecessary jeopardy situation?

weird...

Well, James Bond -

'When you get furloughed from your 25K a year job here in the states and a place in China is offering 75K for the same job, it may make sense to some to drop $500-1500 down and get the limitation off the certificate.

Weird isn't it? :p

Sure you can. Many sim centers have a circling removal course. It take less than a couple of hours to do the traing and the ride. I did it just a few months back on the 742. I don't know why everybody is getting up in arms about it being a jeopardy ride but your only training and testing the circling maneuver.

If you don't have significant PIC in the type you are having the restriction removed from, its a waste of money. The competetion is tough out there right now.

I know for ExpressJet they aren't willing to remove the restriction because it's not approved for their ops specs, but they were letting us rent the sims to have it removed. If that makes sense. It's something like that anyway.. maybe another XJT guy can speak up.

I didn't look too far into it, but I know there are guys who have been getting it removed on our sims.

At PDT the Circle is still in the Ops Specs and I've had to do a couple with Binghampton's ILS to 34 being out of service all summer and so far all fall.

I'm sorry to appall you, Bond...I guess being offended is a natural course of leaving your own desktop. That being said, thanks for contributing to the thread; I'm learning a lot.

Contrails-

The weird part to me is how the original poster stated:

"I'm kind of finicky about my certs, and if I have a type rating I don't want the limitations...even if the limitation has no effect on current operations."

I can see where you are coming from, but our original poster doesn't start with his regional for another month and a half. I guess its never to early to plan for a furlough.

Apology accepted.
I apologize for judging you on wanting to purchase a non-limiting SIC type.

The answer for XJ is unfortunately, No. I have asked as well and the answer I have gotten from more than one source is since circling approaches are no longer in our op specs the instructors/apd's are no longer authorized to train or test for this and as such ALL type ratings issued by them must have the limitation. Now can the manuver be tested in the sims, yes. But you have to go through Pan Am on your own and at your own cost. Best bet is get hired by a part 135 Saab operator, they will train and test for the circling approach and no more limitation... If you are talking about the CRJ then guess you'll just have to call Pan Am and see what they offer.

Now that's the answer I'm looking for. Thanks, Avro. From a practical standpoint, there's no way I would pay to remove the limitation until I upgrade...I can't even justify it to myself if it isn't a full blown PIC privilege. Thanks again; Maybe I'll check in with Pan Am and hit them up in several years if I have the upgrade and an income...maybe find a way to write it off.

As I work for CAE, I am aware that there are training programs. I've got one right here for the A320. Pretty sure the FAA wouldn't authorize you to walk in the door with a designated examiner and go right into a checkride. In Part 142 we are REQUIRED to give training before hand...that's what I'm saying.

Z