Are you kidding me Pinnacle?
 

I've had some bad experiences in the past but this week absolutely takes the cake. Went to pick my grandma up in detroit and watched
her pinnacle flight sit at the top of the J line for fifty (5-0) mins waiting for rampers. I have never in my life seen that. Then in another incident I was trying to jumpseat out east. I showed up at the gate 1.5 hours before departure repeatedly asking the agent to list me. 15 mins before she says she won't have time. I persist saying I've been standing there all this time. She calls ops and says sorry they can't take a jump seater. I had a long talk with the captain earlier and he said no problems or weight restrictions. She wouldn't let me back down to talk to him and shut the door in my face. I go to the next flight. Honestly the same exact thing happens. This time I go to another gate where the agent isn't busy and her to list me. She does then I go back to the gate and tell her I'm listed so whenever she gets time ill be here. She calls ops and even though there is 20 plus open seats, she can't take a jump seater. Door in the face and wouldn't let me talk to the captain again , even though he told me before it would be no problem. Do you guys really not question where a jump seater is especially when he meets you at the gate? I've been jump seating for many years and have never been treated this badly not even by mesa or go jet. I'm truly embarrassed for you guys. Wow.

get ready for some intense verbal fightin in 3...2...1...

In regards to the jumpseat, are you actually jumpseating or non-reving? If you're a non-rev isn't YOUR responsibility to list? I'm not sure, but the story sounds a little fishy. Maybe we're only getting one side. Also, waiting for a gate is not their fault. It's been happening over on the mainline side too. I too would bang in sick if I had to work the ramp in the recent cold.

Do you think that the pilot's caused your problem? I used to work at Pinnacle and that was normal for DTW, lousy yes, but that's what happens when the competitor provides your ramp services. No offense to anyone at Mesaba, it's not your guys fault, who wouldn't take care of their own company first?

As far as jump seating was it a Pinnacle station agent or NWA? Try taking the problem to your jump seat committee instead of posting on a message board. Things don't get fixed unless you take them to the right people.

Sorry to hear about that, what can i say? I always try to get as many non-revs and JS on as possible, so ill come up to the counter after everyone is on, time permitting, and make sure everyone has a seat, but it seems as if things are more rushed in the winter, I guess preventing and covering up all other delays...Speaking of pinnacle, whats with the christmas lights? I can can't on two hands how many christmas lights i've seen lit up in the doorway, nice touch, wish I could do that here!

Title and every reference should be replacing Pinnacle with Mesaba. Mesaba does ALL Pinnacle ground handling (ramp and gate etc) in DTW and MSP. Only MEM hub has Pinnacle ground crews. NWA insists on letting Mesaba handle our ground services. Seems kinda like a Ford dealer being asked to sell a Chevy...

I don't think it an issue as much about what company does the ground ops than it is the quality of applicants who apply. I think every regional has a DTW. The service in MSP is a lot better. For the guys who fly the Airways routes i hear PHL is the same.

I don't understand why Mesaba ground has to be different from NWA ground? maybe it has to do with the ungodly hike to the A gates in MSP?:p

I am sorry you have had those problems.

The ramp wait isn't a Pinnacle problem, it's ours.
Unfortunately, the DTW work ethic isn't what we would hope for. And even though we are Mesaba, we wait for the rampers too.

I find your gate problems disturbing because they are Mesaba too, I think. I have never had those problems, but I certainly believe you.

Now, there may be a problem when it comes to our gate people trying to communicate with the 9e dispatch or load control and our gate people just don't want to deal with it anymore. It shouldn't happen.
Contact your Union jumpseat Rep. He will call the 9e Rep and try to work it out. I have seen 9e pilots call the NWA Jumpseat Rep pretty late at night when there were uncooperative gate people.

If you would like you could pm me the details and I will contact the Mesaba Jumpseat Rep. It's an internal problem, we should be involved.

Again I am sorry. With all the industry in the crapper we need to do a better job looking out for each other.

Captains,
Please take the time to make sure there are no non-revs / js in the boarding area. I try to go out on every flight and find out if there are. Usually on my flights, if there is plenty of room, I like to board them ahead if I can. Professionial courtesy. I know how much I hate sitting in the boarding area wondering.

As well, if someone has approached you, it's only common sense to make sure they made it on. I know things get busy, but I've never had an instance where I couldn't take two minutes to walk up the jetway to make sure we weren't leaving anyone behind. I always check the windows tomake sure someone isn't trying to flag me down. Numerous times I've had the door closed and someone ran up. Jetway was pulled and I still brought them on. ACARS you wonder, at least with us, once we register a push time, it sticks. If we open the door, it asks wether we have returned to the gate. I hit no and go on with my life. I've never ONCE been questioned by my company.

It's the holiday time guys and gals, let's help our fellow crew members out. We should be doing this year around, although right now it is more important than ever. With the changes in schedules, work rules and concessions we take, don't overlook the one benefit that is for us and could be the most important benefit we have.

Take the time, it's everyone's responsibility.

Thanks to all.
Whiskey

I dont understand why you call out mesa, are u an A lister?
I always do all I can to get a JS'er on including bumpin bags.

Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

Captains like you make this job a lot less stressful for commuters. I've had to wave down a couple crews before because the last flight on my trip finished close to the departure time of the last flight home. Some of those commuting flights were within 10 minutes of my block in time and every time the crew was really great at getting me on. One time the gate agent closed the door 10 minutes early, but only when the CA saw me waiving at the window, was I let down. The other time, they pulled the jetway back from the airplane, but the CA told them it was fine to let me on, even though I had just rushed over there. I don't expect much in those situations but it gave me an extra night at home.

Thanks.

You can thank the Mesaba ramp for your problems... This issue has been ongoing for a long time and from what I have heard there has been no progress on "fixing" the ramper park/push issues and the gate agents feel they have "authority". Last week in DTW I had a gate agent who INSISTED she could board when we had a 2+ hour ground stop (we were trying to go the the east coast in a winter storm) and my FA went to get food, my CA was down in ops and I had to escort the folks BACK up to the top of the jetbridge, tell the gate agent AGAIN not to board, then argue with her when she started raising her voice in the middle of the gate area telling me "you don't know what you are doing". I about choked a b!tch. Ultimately I won.



Your issues with DTW is not new to anyone, and FAR from pinnacle's fault. We are the red tailed stepchild.

PRECISELY! Well Said, Whiskey!

Give me a break... as previously posted the root of the problem lies in the fact that we're talking about DTW here. THe work ethic is some of the worst I've ever seen. You see the same issue over at mainline, to a certain degree. On top of the the ramp/gate positions pay like you know what... who you gonna attract with those wages? Mesaba is constantly trying to fix the problems quite contrary to your belief Higney. Oh yea... we at XJ wait to park too. Stop trying to create this victim image. Nobody is immune here. IN the end, no matter who is running the ramp, there is no excuse for rude and lazy behavior.

The majority of the agents and rampers try their best given the tools they have. I've never had a problem with an agent and their authority... because I let them know if they're overstepping their bounds and politely push them in the right direction.

My favorite question to the PCL folks is this... do you think the ramp/gate issues would be better if Pinnacle ran the ramp in MSP and DTW?

As stated previously in the thread the problem is not with Pinnicle orthe Mesaba ops. The problem extends much further than that. The workforce of DTW area is a classic study of socialism. The entitlement mentality runs deep in the area. I do understand that the pay these individuals recieve is sub par, but they have chosen a job in public service. There has been more that one instance when they have had to be reminded of this.

Rumor has it (I love it when posts start this way): Detroit has such a high number of unskilled labor(thank you auto industry)....that they started a program to help these people get a job. They offer employers a plan to help train these people. The city (your taxdollars) pays the company to train these people. The city (your taxdollars) also pays the employees first three months wages. After the three months, the company puts them on probabtion. Most of these workers don't make it far when the company is responsible for paying.So in theory.....these city subsidised workers are working free to the company, but your tax dollars are paying for them. So don't be ripped at the company, take credit where credit is do, We are paying these guys to be a pain in our buts and make our jobs a lot more frustrating than it has to be.

At the A terminal I don't know what the deal is.....Most of the ramp over there gets payed more than a first year NWA FO.....

They'd be the same folks :D

Thanks Whiskey. It is Captains like yourself that keep the all of us commuters able to commute. Everyone should adapt that type customer service. happy holidays.

Exactly my point... and Pinnacle pays less than XJ does for hub ramp/gate operations. And judging by the PCL run outstations... well... 'nuff said.

While I dont disagree that the personnel may be a PART of the problem let me share this story from yesterday while doing out and backs from DTW. First turn back, parking on the outside, we got to the gate 10 minutes before scheduled block in. We're stopped with the brake set going on 10 minutes, when a Saab pulls up next to us, gets parked almost immediately. We were parked about 5 minutes later.
Next turn, again outside of the alley, we're parked with the brake set for about 5 minutes. A Saab pulls up a few gates away, gets parked within a minute or two. A few minutes go by and another Saab asks on ground if we can pull up so they can get by. CA says no go....zipper road obscured by snow, doesn't feel comfortable pulling up more. I call ops tell them we're blocking a Saab in the road and need to get parked...Within 2 minutes rampers come from the gate next door that was getting ready to push and park us. It may have been coincidental timing yes, but I had to ask myself; how much longer would we have sat there if we were blocking a 9E RJ and not a Saab.....food for thought

We are all in this together!!!!!! Were they the same rampers thatparked the Saab?? The ground staff cannot think outside the box enoughto work outside their 'zone'. I have seen it work both sides ofthat senerio........

Amen to that... don't shoot the Pinnacle boys/girls in the foot if it's Northwest/Delta's problem. I've jumpseated with them many times and they are very gracious.

Pinnalcle run outstations are far better then XJ... and i think 9E sucks at everything as far as operations go. the flight crews are the only thing that even keeps that airline running.
but XJ stations are the worst... and DTW and MSP are a joke.. DTW taking the cake. The gate agents are terrible at best.

You are good man Whiskey.

Merry Christmas,

AAflyer

No wing walkers required for a saab, unless the markings cannot be seen on the pavement. So... its quicker and easier to park a saab than it is to park a CRJ. It's not a 9E vs. XJ thing.

9E vs. XJ outstations... ever been to MLI? LNK? Everytime we go, there's a new bass ackwards procedure. There are also horrible XJ out stations. The worst ones however are the outsourced outsourced ones like WFS. This isn't a ****ing match between the two companies. Mine isn't better than yours. There are some horrible mainline stations too.

I really think that you need to think before you start comparing 9E outstations and XJ stations.........Its a real pot calling the kettle black thing!!!!!!! We all have our short comings. Like bored said..... This isn't a Mine is bigger than yours competition.... Its a how do we fix the problem....thing!! We can fix the blame or fix the problem....but the majority of us on here really like to point!!!

First of all, why do you even care? Why are you defending those rampers? Do you really have do much pride in Mesaba that you feel the need to convince everyone they are better than Pinnacle people too? Plus if you want to compare a 9E station to an XJ station why don't you compare two hubs, say MSP and MEM, or DTW and MEM. Either way the work ethic is bad in MEM as well, but the operation is much much smoother because of the volume of staff. Who controls the volume of staff, Pinnacle; and Mesaba in DTW and MSP. So don't even start to tell me that XJ is better at running a ramp.

If you really want to bring MEM into the comparison, then you're comparing apples to oranges. What do you think the MEM ramp staff is doing after the push? Answer: they're waiting for the next push, in about 4 hours. The MSP and DTW ramp/gate have arrivals and departures so close together if one flight is late arriving, things get crazy. MSP/DTW are totally different animals then MEM.

im sitting here reading this thread and thinking to myself you guys are describing phl. I sat there last night with the whole alley between the c and d gates blocked for 45 minutes waiting for marshallers. While we were waiting had a fun conversation with several mainline guys and a south west guy about where the rampers were and what drugs they were enjoying at the time. wouldnt have been so bad if we werent already 3.5 hours late on the go home day.

Take action:
Angry Agent

I used to throw bags on the ramp for Mesaba in Dtw back in the day. There aren't enough people working there for one. 5 people 4 gates for example. After the first winter, my seniority went to the top 20. No one like working outside in the winter elements. Everone quit over the winter. On the ramp and gate, no one cared which company, 9e or xj, needed service - Poor service for everyone. I remember seeing airplanes out there for 40 minutes, but there were not enough rampers to go around. They hire at 8-something an hour now. The people I worked with were most interested in avoiding work at all cost... Pretty sure not much has changes

I dont know what they are telling you guys over there at XJ... but they sure have you drinking the juice and you guys/gals are drinking it down.
DTW is worst run station I have ever been to, makes the old days at IAD and ORD look good.
But there is one thing you are right about... the WFS outstations are far worse then XJ or 9E could ever be.
And by no means here am I really sticking up for 9E, they are horrible stations too, like a previous poster said, when you pay someone 8$ an hour it makes them work just hard enough to keep there job.

Part of the problem is that DTW ramp is staffed by zone. If you are one gate over from the zone the Saab is parking in then they will stand there watching you sit then park the Saab in "their" zone. When done they go back inside because as far as they're concerned (and the supervisors) your gate might as well be a different airport. And for $8/hr in this kind of weather you'd be probably taking the same attitude no matter what company was on your ID. If you think you have it bad here, go see the C.F. going on at A19 and A33 in MEM. It's a miracle the Saabs there ever move.

All you guys need to quit b#tchin. For 8 bucks an hour outside on a ramp in detroit you should be lucky to get parked at all.

All they need is a big mirror angled down so we can see where to stop, then we can get off and let all the angry pax wait around for someone to come out of the break room and take thier gate checked bags out of cargo before they run to catch a 20 minute connection in the A concourse. Those guys chose thier job, does it suck working outside in the winter, or course, but they are no better in the summer. Its still no excuse. $8 an hour isn't bad for that type of work, just chill in a nice warm break room till ops calls for the third time to tell you a plane is there, go thrash a couple bags and head back for the break room to catch some more MTV.

I've seen 9E captains bend over backwards trying to get jumpseaters on...and gate agents in Memphis--both XJ and 9E--are usually amazingly supportive of jumpseaters/nonrevs...I think it's a DTW thing...crappy city, crappy weather, high turnover= bad gate agents...MSP is full of helpful and educated peeps doing it for flight benefits and MEM is fully of people who have actually been around for a while...so DTW is always going to be a cluster for j/s unless they start staffing it with mainline/better-paid employees

I agree. I have never had a bad experience with trying to jumpseat with 9e although I've been bumped off due to weight restrictions on those CRJ200s. Every 9e pilots I've met have been friendly and I make sure they are treated the same way when they try to jumpseat on XJ. There are sour gate agents at DTW and MSP but most of them are NWA employees. Most XJ gate agents are helpful.

As far as rampies are concerned, enough said by others here. It's not unusual to wait 20 minutes for a park job at DTW whether you are XJ or 9e. I've seen tug drivers wait until the last minute to show up while passengers are waiting complaining why NWA does not take off on time. In fairness though, I've seen this at ALB, MSP, BDL, and MEM as well.

I have nothing but good things to say about Pinnacle flight crews. I've met some great people working for Pinnacle and I wish them the best in 2009.

Great post Whiskey!!

I have only had to deny a jumpseater ONCE.

The only reason I did is because the friggin rampers had told me the exact number of PAX and bags we were going to have on board, and I had already told them to write down 2 less carry ons than what were actually on board so we could take the jumpseater right at our cutoff wieght limit. It was 2 days before Christmas and I did not want to leave him behind because of 2 lousy carry on bags... Well with IAD and all of its glory, the rampers come back up to me 1 min before pushback and make a change on the manifest telling me they had to add 8 more connecting bags to the count... We were already at the min fuel required to go, and if the ramper hadn't actually written the correction on the manifest we wouldn't have had a problem. I figured they were going to say they had a few less than they had said... figures I was wrong

I felt REALLY bad having to tell the guy we couldn't take him and to thank the friggin rampers for screwing it up once again in lovely IAD.

I always try everything I can to take as many jumpseaters as possible all the time, not just during the holiday season.

Actually, $8.00 hour really IS that bad for the kind of work they are doing. Back breaking physical labor should pay somewhere in the teens or twenties, at least. The proof that $8/hr isn't enough is right there in front of our eyes, every day we go to work. Furthermore, in this day and age, the suggestion that those who don't like it should quit and find other work is laughably ridiculous.

People know how much they should be getting paid for a given job, and if their actual pay is a little, or a lot less, many people calibrate down their job performance to match their pay.

Management knows this, and the reason they don't do anything about it is that they have run their spreadsheets and determined that the present performance (and turnover) is good enough. Otherwise, they would pay more.