Company needs are based on block hours, not the level of stress the 19 year old crew schedulers are feeling because of flying they're trying to cover. My company hasn't furloughed, but I would pick up open time without thinking about it. When you think of the number of pairings being flown on any given day, 3 trips a week in open time are a drop in the bucket.

If the Union was telling me not to do something, then I'd respect it, but like you said, people signed up for this job and this industry and this is one of the known risks. This isn't the first time furloughs have gone out industry wide. Unless there is an official consensus of your group of pilots on the issue, I would come to my own conclusion.

I understand that you're frustrated and probably hurting a bit, many of us are, but taking your anger out on various forum goers has made you sound more arrogant than anything. Just because somebody passed ground school and has been on the line for a year doesn't entitle them to a soapbox.

The union can't say anything because it would be considered an illegal job action per the RLA.

With that said, I feel that open time shouldn't be picked up when there are people on the street. Yeah, you might have trouble paying your bills without crediting 90 hours a month, but consider how much harder it is when you're crediting 0 hours.

amen brother

ok than my comment wasnt directed at you

of course not, but right is right and wrong is wrong. picking up open time while pilots from your company are on the street is wrong!

than i hope you dont ever furlough at your company, and yes i am entitled to my soapbox

See thats the great thing...... we can all just agree to disagree on this subject. Both sides have been presented, and frankly I doubt any minds changed. The fact remains there are those who think its wrong to pick up open time while guys at their carrier are on the street and those who dont care so who will pick up open time.

Why not post names? If it's no big deal and you dont care what other people think then No worries, right?

You're right "buddy."

But thankfully some of us consider this a profession, meaning we consider ourselves professionals. As such, we respect the hard work accomplished by our peers. Further, when our peers are down in the gutter, there is no point in kicking them while they're rolling around in filth trying to find a gig because our respective companies failed to appropriately forecast staffing needs.

It's not about being black and white, it's about ethical professional behavior and treating your fellow professional aviator with some sort of dignity and respect.

Thanks for playing "buddy."

Me and 727 may have had our differences in the past... but I agree wholeheartedly with this statement ( the only problem for me is that I don't fit in a 152.. so 172 for me!)

I can't agree with you 100%, we are professionals, i fly as such. But no one has explained as to why it is unethical to pick up open time. Just stating that it is wrong doesn't have any merit.
Convince me that it isn't right. I believe if you want those pilots back here working then we need to increase our labor costs. PSA is one of the few airlines that pays 1.5X for SDO. This is how we can hit management hard. Increase labor costs and our bean counters will bring them back faster than if no one picked up open time. Remember there are still many reserves and most F/O's fly only 30 hrs a month. Captains maybe a little more. If noone picks up Open Time all that will happen is that the reserves will get abused more.

While there are exceptions to every rule, airline pilots tend to be conservative in their personality and actions, and many times, in their political beliefs.

It is this observation that causes me to shake my head at pilots who don't aren't financially conservative and plan their monthly budget based only on their guaranteed pay.

Management would love NOTHING more than for every reserve pilot to fly exactly 75:00 every month; this insures maximum efficiency for each labor dollar spent. Unfortunately for them, this goal is next to impossible to achieve because management has a responsibility to keep sufficient reserves to cover irregular operations and all open flying.

If pilots stop picking up open flying, then yes, reserve utilization goes up. This means that there are fewer available reserves to cover the aforementioned irregular operations and open flying. Fewer available reserves means it doesn't take much before flights start canceling due to lack of crew, and NOTHING (in my personal observations) ****es passengers off more than a flight canceling due to an airline not having enough pilots to fly. Of course the company has Junior Manning available to them to cover flights, but that's a very small band-aid on a large wound at that point and leads to increased sick calls and sharply lower morale. When crew cancellations reach an unsustainable point (one only management can decide), pilots are recalled to bolster reserve ranks and displaced captains return to their seat.

There's a reason UPS pilots have a clause in their pilot contract that if management announces a furlough, the union can legally call for an Open Time Ban - it does in fact work to keep pilots off the street.

Those of you who stand around and thump your chest about not picking up open time are sure quick to judge others. Others whose situations you know nothing about. I call that ignorance. What you gives you the right to stand in judgement of anyone? Some of you probably got hired here while you were still on a temporary commercial certificate. All of a sudden you are airline staffing experts? I cant wait to see how far your expertise will reach after two full years on the job. Was your opinion that all who pick up open time are evil based on your vast number of years and furloughs you have eperienced while operating in this industry? The reality is most of you were probably in 10th grade trying to get your dingy a ling played with and popping pimples when our last contract was negotioated and your opinions were formed by someone else. Everyone should mind their own business. Fly safe, happy holidays

Ya gotta love a guy whose whole argument consists of "Shaddup, you're all a bunch of kids!... Probably..."

bassslayer, I'm guessing by the tone of your post that you're one of those 2nd year PSA FOs picking up opentime while some of your colleagues are on furlough?

If so, I understand you're going to do what you believe is in your best interest.

SCABS, Freedom A-listers, and the early cadre of GoJet pilots felt the same way.

Pilots picking up open flying for their own gain while members of their pilot group are furloughed is representative of the true lack of "unity" that unionized airline pilots truly have in this country. Until this lack of unity is addressed at the Local level (as pilots *are* ALPA), ALPA National will continue to be marginalized and ineffective in achieving the sweeping compensation and work rule improvements that so many pilots at the regional, major and legacy airlines are demanding.

I can't speak for others who share my opinions, but I got my "airline staffing expert" knowledge from my work on AWAC's Scheduling Committee (which started about the time you were hired at PSA) as well as observations throughout the industry (UAL "Summer of Love", NWA bankruptcy negotiations, FedEx BLG reduction, UPS Open Time Ban). Unless contractually guaranteed, union leadership can't come out and say "Don't do this" as it would constitute an illegal job action...but get enough individual pilots onboard with a grass-roots effort and the effect is the same.

You say everyone should mind their own business...but this industry doesn't operate in a vacuum. By the nature of the job a pilot's actions are judged by management, the public, and their peers...this situation it is no different.

I understand the disappointment and anger of furloughed pilots who sit back and watch while their yet-employed coworkers gorge themselves at the opentime trough; I wish more pilots would open their minds to this perspective.

I personally wouldn't pick up flying out of the opentime pot were I still at AWAC; I know I wouldn't be able to look a furloughed pilot in the eye and have a clear conscience if had I done so. Obviously, other's mileage will vary.

BoilerUP,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post. Hopefully it opens a few more eyes.

Oh and thanks to Surreal as well!

BoilerUp

I appreciate your input although I'm not sure how many you all had on furlough at the time you worked on that comittee. Regardless here you go. Here are some numbers I put together on the fly. I did this kind of quick but they should be fairly accurate. Please use this data to determine how many of the 80ish pilots on furlough should be recalled by the company assuming NO ONE picks up open time this month. I would like to see these guys back just like everyone else. And for the record, I rarely ever pick up any open time. I'm just not a fan of people playing judge and jury. Obviously I didnt count FO's that are listed as ineligable for whatever reason.

CLT
75 Hard lines
6 Build Up
Total =81 lines
112 FO's (approx 31 reserves)

DAY
33 Hard Lines
3 Build Up
Total= 36 lines
50 FO's (approx 14 reserves)

TYS
33 Hard Lines
3 Build Up
Total= 36 Lines
45 FO's (approx 9 reserves)

Total Reserve FO's (approx 54)

Most lines are credited in the high 80's which is down from the mid 90's pre furlough

Total Open Time for FO's in January= 28 Parings for a block of 226:01hrs

Boilerup....as usual SPOT on. My experience includes 3 1/2 years of 121 scheduled flying....most of it on reserve. My union experience includes time on the Eagle Strike Prepardness Committee in 1994 and recently on the scheduling committee for one of RAH's airlines. So I know a little of what I speak.
Boiler is right to the point when he makes note that with out unity at all levels airline unions will continue to be victimized by mgt. The "look out for me mentality" is what has doomed this profession.

ASA seems to be doing it right... they have reduced line credit to at or below the min for most of their lines... thus creating more lines... keeping guys off the street.....so far....

Basslayer.... obviously I dont agree with your position..... but its yours. Other people are allowed theirs as well... even if you dont like it.

bassslayer, while I'd love nothing more than to give you a number of how many people would be recalled if nobody picked up opentime, one very important factor missing that only management (and perhaps Scheduling Committee) knows is the average monthly opentime picked up by the pilot group.

Let's say for round numbers, FOs pick up a historical average of 220 open time hours each month. With reserve pilots making a 75 hour guarantee, that's 5 hours shy of 3 pilots who could be recalled; odds are strong that at least 2 more pilots would be needed. Now management isn't going to recall only 2 (or even 3) pilots, but if captains historically picked up the same amount of opentime then 2-3 FOs would resume their CA seat and there would be a need for 4-6 FOs...which should make a recall cost-effective.

Yes, management could attempt to spread that 220 hours of historical opentime pickup in each seat to reserves in order to keep their current staffing...but that makes fewer reserves available for irregular ops and sick calls, getting closer to the magical "breaking point" in the staffing models.

If one pilot gets recalled (or keeps their job) due to individuals refusing open time, doesn't that make their individual sacrifices in the name of "unity" worthwhile?

I see yor point but that is not how it works here. There is NO unity with this pilot group. The reason the furloughs occured in the first place is PSA over hired, anticipating about 100 captains leaving who were hired through the preferential interview process. This did not happen. there is less open time out there now than there ever has been. that 226 hrs this month is before any trip trading which will start today. I would expect to see that number go down once that happens.The guy that goes out and picks up a 1.5hr two leg trip and gets paid 6 hrs for it has a more detrimental effect on the company than if they had to assign it to a reserve. Many of our reserves are flying no where near gaurantee. The attendance here has went WAY UP once the JforJ's left. this is proven every month when the bid comes out. Our schedules are built so you really have to torture yourself to pick up open time. The company absolutely loaths SDO pay. I look at things the opposite way. If the company has to pay time and half for 226 hrs of flying, maybe they will get off their arses and build a few more lines and recall

Oh, well now that you put it that way.

Good thing you are out there trying to make things better.


I would bet there is more unity than you think, and folks like you are the exception.

I would bet that you are wrong. I have yet to meet anyone here that shares your opinion. Wait I take that back, a buddy of mine did share your opinion but then he went and picked up two trips in open time last month so I don't know what his official position is these days. And yes, I called him a hypocrite.

FOs not picking up open time is exactly why I've received a recall letter that I was told wouldn't come until April at the earliest.

Bassslayer et al,

If you were on the street, would you feel the same????

This is the problem.

Most at the regional level feel the it's a box needing to be checked. You never know when that 3 year plan to get the 1000 PIC will turn into 6 or 7+ years. It's on the shoulders of the MEC to organize people and get them on the same sheet of music (I'm not talking an organized action). I feel it's like an election, if you don't vote, then you don't get to complain. In this case, if you are not involved with your MEC, then you do not get to complain about min days off, poor lines, etc.

I do like the bit about it costing the company 6.0 for 1.5, but can they extend you after the 1.5? I can't recall and don't have a copy of the contract handy.

Absolutley. I said that in one of my earlier posts. I only concern myself with what I do not with what others do. I know the reality. If I was on the street I would spend my time looking for another job. Not worrying about whether Joe Blow picked up an out and back last Friday. I can see in some situations not picking up open time might bring some back but not here, at least not right now anyway. there isn't much open time out there to begin with and this airline is more the adequatley staffed to cover the flying. In fact, there is less open time now than there was before the furloughs. So, in a way, we are all picking it up in every trip. My whole point was more about it being wrong to judge others based on what they do when you know nothing of their situations, and less about whether picking up open time is right or wrong. I rarely ever pick anything up and could care less whether people do or not. The MEC sent an email out a while back asking us to ask our fellow crew member how they were assigned the trip if it is someone other than you normally fly with. Most of us know why we were asked to do this. If the Captain says he picked it up in open time, feel free at that time to express your displeasure with his decision to do so. I know a few senior captains here that love being told what dirt bags they are for picking up open time from a 1st year FO who was flying a 152 6 months ago.

The problem I see with your logic, is that people who are making judgements have a pretty good grasp of the facts.

You are correct in that not everything is black and white.

However, many people see this as a strictly ethical issue, on on that basis, feel it is ok to judge another.

In regards to your last statement, it is what a person DOES that determines his value, not who he IS.

You are entitled to your opinion, and to act accordingly, but there are consequences.

Really? Who are these people who have a 'good grasp of the facts"? I posted the facts a few post ago with regards to the amount of open time this month and the number of FO's in every base. Anyone with a "good grasp of the facts" can look at the numbers and hopefully do a little math. Feel free to take a look. they will run this place as lean and as long as they can. It wouldn't surprise me if they furloughed a few more. Our reserves for the most part are way under utilized as it is. I feel lucky to be able to work with so many that not only have such a "good grasp of the facts" but who were also born perfect enough to be able to blindly place judgement upon others. BTW, I always act accordingly and will be the first one to step up and face any "consequenes" for my actions. this topic is getting old. I've more than givin my .02 cents. Have a safe new year and fly safe. ..out..

It doesn't matter whether min sked/no ot has any significant or practical effect on whether/when recalls occur.

It is principle.

So basically, these people should forget about their own life, their own needs and obligations, and not pick up open time so your principles remain intact? Loooooove the union mentality.

No. They should do it because its the right thing to do....kind of like pilots being principled enough to not cross a picket line, in spite of their "own life, own needs and obligations".

I have no sympathy for somebody who fails to create and live within a budget based upon their monthly guarantee. While I'm as much a capitalist as anybody (and those pilots picking up open time are capitalists getting financially rewarded for additional work), I understand its far easier to meet one's financial obligations when you're "only" making guarantee than when you get furloughed and have no paycheck at all.

A little shared sacrifice when times are bad, in order to have shared gain when times are good. THAT is the crux of "unity" and the idealized goal of a union...and what the selfish "me first" attitude pilots fail to comprehend.

ALPA and IBT may still exist, but unionism within airlines (especially regional airlines) is dead. And its not dead because of management...its dead because the pilots that make up the unions are apathetic, selfish, and unwilling to accept a little shared sacrifice to the benefit of the entire group.

I may just be a lowly 1st year FO on furlough but at least I figured out how to manage my budget without requiring open time. Open time is great, I picked up as much as I could before PSA furloughed. But as Boiler Up pointed out you should set your budget for your guarantee and anything more is just extra cash. If you still have a job then your most likely at least a second year FO, and if you can't survive on second year pay without open time then your living beyond your means. How much of a sacrifice would it be to not pick any up while people are on the streets you would think any gain that it would make is worth the cash your out. I was only at the company for a few months before the first 27 went out the back door and I found the money to not pick up open time.

Bass Slayer I call BS on your comment about the lines. The in august in DAY when the highest block hour build up was 84, for Jan it is 88 and credit was 89, 91. And when I held a solid line it was not a 90 hour line. The company has inched the block and credit up while people are on the street.

I am in now way an expert but I would think if the union could convince the company to lower the credit hours of the lines this would get people back right now. This is what I have heard ASA has done.

I disagree. It is largely dead because the teeth have been completely taken out of the unions. Strikes are essentially impossible. No credible threat of a strike = no leverage.

There is simply no power left on the labor side of the equation. We can be as united as we want, but the judges and congress and the president have consistently sided with the corporations, especially the airlines, for the past 15 years or so.

And there not much public support for pilot action either.

At least that's how I see it.

A reasonable person can't disagree with that; the current political and social aspect of unionism cannot be overlooked.

While airline labor strikes have been in exceedingly short supply during the Bush Administration, there can be PLENTY accomplished by the pilot group without a formal release by the NLRB; look no further than Northwest's "BoB" or ASA's "HAVOC" in the last 2 years as examples of what pilots can accomplish when they fly the contract, fly the FOM, call in sick when they are sick, and refuse to fly broken airplanes.

Unfortunately, doing those things requires personal sacrifice, and most people aren't willing to make those sacrifices (like missing a commute, talking to a flight manager, justifying their actions, refusing to be pressured) unless they can see an IMMEDIATE benefit in front of them. When enough people become willing to make a little personal sacrifice, and get on board with grass-roots movements (NOT wildcat job actions) then the company starts to take notice and eventually, things change.

My preference is that action to status quo...and the person or party in control of this country's political apparatus doesn't prevent pilots and pilot groups working together for common gain.

What you are suggesting is illegal. Until your released by the NLRB for self help (the term used for a strike), the union and the members can not advocate any action. This has become a huge weapon in the anti union fight. One of the lastest victims is United. APA lost a 25 million dollar judgement and almost went bust when it was suggested the folks call in sick. The unions are worried that they will be called on the carpet because even non union officers were using union communications boards to suggest the very action you are advocating.

Yes, as an individual pilot, you can make a choice to "fly the contract". The soon to be former administration made it illegal for anyone to suggest or ask you to do it.

FDR had pushed for airline pilots to be subject to the railway labor act in 1936.

Please don't turn this into a political thread. It isn't about striking, or work rules.

It's simply about picking up open time with pilots on the street. A few people here keep trying to rationalize it, but their arguments keep getting torn to shreds.

Lets keep it civil, please.

Just a couple of quick actual facts since yours are a bit thin.

#1 We at RAH can't get junior manned. I can pick up my phone and tell them NO!

#2 PBS tends to hose you anyway. I bid min sked every month and still got stuck with 89 hours. Not my fault.

#3 Our FO pay rate was a blended rate between a SAAB340 and a EMB140 we didn't even have a 170 on the property when the contract was negotiated. Now we do and we are in negotiations and working on it, stand by.

And finally some things were given up to avoid a inner office whipsaw attempt and we have a pretty solid scope clause thanks too it. It's yet to be seen how strong,we'll have to see how this business with Midwest pans out.

PS: If you aren't working here, which you aren't since your facts are all hacked up what they heck do you care?

I bid min because I choose too and can afford too and it may help someone else out. But I can't speak for someone else who may need the extra money, and frankly neither should you!

A nice clause to have.

Open time flying is always controversial. Due to court injunctions and past court cases lost, the union's hands are tied on telling pilots to not pick up open time flying. We need to find another way to solve the problem.

No, it isn't.

A few UAL pilots were advocating using up all sick time prior to furlough, whereas what I said was call in sick IF YOU ARE SICK.

If you've ever gotten a cold/flu/etc. from a colleague that showed up unfit for duty per the back of their medical, then you should understand what I'm talking about here.

That's my point...if enough individuals take the initiative to do something, the effect ends up being the same; the union shouldn't have to tell its members to not fly broken airplanes or fly when they are medically unfit for duty.

Not sure who this "you" is referring to since you didn't quote anyone, but the original thread was targeted @ PSA, not Reshuagua.

What makes you think this is about RAH?:confused: We've been talking about PSA.