US Airways Express 2nd Year First Officers
 

At a particular US Express carrier, all the FOs on the line, many of which are picking up copious amounts of open time with nearly 100 of their fellow FOs, even some that were in the same class as the open time offenders, on furlough.

I'm just curious, when will you decide that your 2nd year FO pay, a $7/hour PAY INCREASE, to a measly $30ish/hr, which is a crime in itself... when is your 2nd year FO pay rate going to be enough? Enough to make you feel ashamed for picking up open-time while your fellow pilots are on the street, and you fly extra work that could be flown by a furloughed pilot.

Don't fool yourself, even 3-5 furloughed pilots coming back to cover open-time flying is better than none.

Selfish individuals always try to rationalize their negative decisions. The worst part is I guarantee you nobody that has ever been furloughed, who is a decent human being, would ever fly an hour of open time with fellow pilots on the street.

I don't want to hear any stories about starving children, or not being able to make a rent payment. You signed up for this job knowing what it pays, you have to accept the consequences. Stop living beyond your means, and you wouldn't be in a tight spot concerning cash.

So, from a pilot who would never pick up open time with my fellow pilots on street, on this beautiful Christmas day, when will you stop?

• When will you stop picking up open time?
• When will you stop answering your phone on your days off to get junior manned?
• When will you stop being an uneducated fool, and let scheduling abuse you?
• When will you stop bending the contract to help the company out beyond any reasonable exceptions?
• When will you stop trying to rationalize your destructive, negative behaviour, and help the pilot group as a whole?
• When will you stop lieing to yourself, and others when the subject of picking up open time comes up?

Merry Christmas to Everybody, and hopefully this small public service announcement reaches out to the hearts, and minds of all pilots.

In my humble opinion, anyone who picks up open time, with pilots on furlough, is a piece of crap.

Insano, why don't you name the company, and name individuals (if not here then on your in house website.)

A little shame can work wonders.

Captain - just curious if you caught the interesting contradiction in your own post - the "it is a crime what they pay us/I signed up for this knowing what it paid and should be happy with that..."?:D

Naming names is wrong, especially on a public internet forum. It makes pilots targets of the company, and of angry pilot group members.

It also hurts the pilot group. It is up to the pilot group to police their members, discreetly.

Surprise Line Check!

First year, second year, third year pay, as negotiated by the pilot group, is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.

The point is, someone knew the pay they would receive when they signed up at any company. While there is nothing that makes picking up open time less than legal, it shows the company the pilot group is not totally organized, or together in solidarity.


Oh, and by the way, Cessna 152 pilots need not apply to this conversation, as I doubt you have any real idea of what goes on at this level of aviation. You might read about it, and try to understand it, but your misplaced ideals do not belong here.

Oh, and by the way, Cessna 152 pilots need not apply to this conversation, as I doubt you have any real idea of what goes on at this level of aviation. You might read about it, and try to understand it, but your misplaced ideals do not belong here.[/quote]


Ouch. I know this was not directed at me, but unless you know the person, you have no idea who they are, or what their background is, solely based on what they put on their signature block.

For example. I work at Taco Bell, and fly a 747 (MS Flight Sim,) but I pretend to know lots more than I do.

Mod note:

"Insano, why don't you..name individuals.."

I would suggest you don't. Thanks.

There's very little that is less honorable than picking up open time when there are pilots on the street. It's selfish, wrong, and short sighted. You may be "helping" yourself by getting an extra $50 or $100 a month, but really what you're doing is saying to the company "we have more than enough pilots to cover the flying right now, you can afford to lay off a couple more", which may end up sending you to the street. Also, it hurts any type of negotiations dealing with junior manning, open time pay, and reserve coverage.

Excessive picking up of over time: it's like shooting yourself and your brothers and sisters in the foot.

At a certain US Airways Express carrier, I brought this topic up with a union rep. Unfortunately they cannot take a formal stance because of possible legal ramifications, although the line pilots can try to educate others on the subject. It burns me up when I take a voluntary LOA to help prevent furloughs but others pick up open time.

I am pretty sure that was directed at me... But your name is CAPTAIN INSANO, right? So you must be a Captain and I only fly 152's?:rolleyes: The real question is, if I change my signature block am I entitled to an opinion then?:D

Alright, this thread is going down a bad path here really quickly, but I guess as long as it's still open for discussion I'll throw my .02 in. Look I agree that picking up open time when there are pilots out on furlough is a bad gig. But honestly, it's not our fault that our managements choose to furlough guys and then still have open time left to pick up. Frankly if they have open time they furloughed too many people, definitely. But calling the pilots that pick up their phones on their days off bad people is a little uncalled for. If the pilots that don't pick up on their days off don't fly the open time, scheduling is simply going to extend someone that is already flying, and they're going to get the extra flight time and cash. We can't all refuse to fly open time, we'd start getting missed trips and end up getting fired. Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the fact that we have overqualified pilots on the streets right now, but I also don't want to join them voluntarily by getting fired for refusing a trip.

On a second note, why on earth did you bring the general aviation guys into this? You do realize that not everyone that flies a 152 is a private pilot with 50 hours right? You realize that there are people who own planes like that with 10000+ hours of flight time and 4000+PIC in a 747 right? That was a bit harsh and uncalled for. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hence why it's a PUBLIC forum). It may not be as educated as others' opinions may be, but it's still perfectly alright for it to be acknowledged.

I do agree with you though... naming out pilots on a public forum is grounds for disaster.

At another carrier, pilots were flat-out told by both company and union leaders (via in-person conversation) that not picking up open would lead to any recalls. This carrier's CBA includes language that MANDATES a certain percentage of open time. In fact, it is the union's contention that the company is paying more in labor costs when a 4th year FO picks up a 4-day than doling it out to a 1st year RSV (to include insurance and benefits). I don't know what other CBAs look like, but it certainly wouldn't hurt taking a look to see how open time is negotiated.

It it's just unassigned flying as a result of furloughs, then I see why there's frustration. However, if you negotiated a contract that forces coordinators to leave flying off lines, then you're just punishing yourself more.

many regional airlines staff according to the number of block hours flown. Not x # of pilots for x # of planes but 10,000 block hours = 800 pilots.... The metrics are already set.

I disagree with picking up open time with furloughed pilots out there but if you really look at the big picture there is little to no effect on the furloughed guys. Being emotional about an issue doesnt make it the case.

I personally dont pick up open time right now but i dont hold anything against those that do. That is their own personal decision and one that they have to defend.

CAPTAIN INSANO, I was all ears about your views until you had to disrespect the 152 drivers stating that they have no idea what goes on at that "level" of aviation.
The ego, ego, ego. So now because you are where you are you think that everyone else on their way to an airline career is beneath you? If I may ask, did you go straight where you are from the get go or did you spend time working to where you are right now. Your statements insulted those that are in general aviation, but what is so funny is that you insulted yourself the most. Your own words have killed your post and concerns. Take it easy my friend for we are all aviators regardless of what we fly. If you have the nerve to make such a remark, I wonder what a 30year heavy metal captain would say, and I am sure you definitely are not a 30year heavy metal captain. So you would not have any idea. I'm out!

I'd rather drive a 152 than a 767, any day....

lol ill trade you...

I'd rather drive a 152 than a 767, any day....

im curious as to the reason y my dads on the 75 76 and he says its turned into a job after doing it for 20 years. and imnot sure what he meant by that

I think this just fortifies my post earlier ... Thanks ugflyer :)

captain insano

Those are some pretty strong words bro. I have to say that I do agree with you on some points but on others..... I'm at USair express carrier and haven't picked up open time since we layed off pilots, that has to do with the furloughs but also not giving up days off. Although I would love to think that if no one picks up open time those guys would get recalled but thats hard to imagine when rsv pilots, including myself are only flying 25 hrs/month. My situation is pretty simple, my 72 guarantee covers the rent and some other bills so i'm cool with that for now. BUT not everyone is in that position. People have kids, college loans they are still paying on and other misc
expenses. You say that "you knew the pay when you got hired here". When i was interviewing they told me that I'd be a captain by now lol, not a rsv FO so you can't blame people for that. And as stated previously there will always be open time, not picking it up won't get people recalled, the flying will just get assigned to someone on rsv like me who will end up doing for per diem. Also you pick on the FO's? how about the captains. I fly with a ton of guys that are getting time and a 1/2 and we have down grades. If youre gonna be on here bashing your fellow pilots maybe you should try to be a little fair. My buddy has to get his car inspected in a few weeks and his pay does not allow 400 dollars for new tires without which his car won't pass. What should he do? pick up 1 trip or park his car?

With all that said. I hope thing turn around here soon and everywhere else so that we can get these guys back to work as soon as possible

Picking up open time during while a furlough is in effect is like slapping your fellow pilot in the face. Let the company live with the bed they made. They can assign reserves, extend pilots already flying or attempt to junior man. Anything with your CBA. If anything the union of they had a pair, would be trying to negotiate a reduction in hours per line to try and get some guys or gals back off the street. If you want to talk the talk about sticking together as a union group, then WALK the freaking WALK and take shared sacrifice to better the whole group.

rant over.

Merry Christmas

Couldn't agree more with that. The lines that are built now are rediculous. 92 hrs credit and so on. Shave 5 or 10 hrs off each one and you could easily bring at least some pilots back. Most of the line holders here don't even want that much flying, from what I gather anyways. Not to mention whats happened to the days off since the lines are now built by peidmont. 8-9 year senority gets you 12 days and thats if you don't bid according to commutibilaty. Schedules here is something thats been at the top of everyones complaint list for some time now. haven't seen a differance yet tho. But thats off the subject

There is a huge difference between picking up open time and being junior manned. What you've described in bold, is Junior Manning. What the gripe is, is pilots that go out of their way to pick up extra UNSTAFFED flying while there are people on furlough.

You make a point about "the company furloughed too many". Well the company will NEVER recall pilots, if they can get the remaining folks to pick up extra trips.

It disgusts me enough to see a lack of solidarity between pilots of "competing carriers", but the fact that there's a disconnect within the same pilot group is bleeping mind boggling.

COMPLETLY AGREE

No one should pick up open time ever! what you think because you have bills and family that the pilot on the street dosent?:mad:There is no way to justify picking up open time! I have bills to pay, i have a family, i have a new baby due in less than a month with no insurance because i am already on furlough. what makes your situation any tougher than mine. So do you still want to pick up open time?DONT DO IT!!!! (with that said it is wrong to name drop in a public forum)

ALSO AGREE!

on a personal note i also feel that if you are strictly a GA pilot then no your opinion is not wanted on the matter

90+ hour lines Min days off most people fly a 4day+1 and 74 pilots on furlough.

Wow, so just say it. You are talking about Republic Airlines. If you work there, then you already know we have our own internal company forums (two, in fact), and that this topic has been exhaustingly debated therein. If the pilots you are trying to reach do not read the aforementioned forums, then they likely don't read this forum either. I hope that talking like a big boy has made you feel better...we all need to vent on occasion...but you really come across as unprofessional by blasting your co-workers in front of the whole audience here. If you have a beef with some particular people, then meet them in the crew room, or invite them to discuss the topic with you via their v-file.

People will always pick up overtime. I disagree with it, and so do the majority of posters here. You are preaching to the converted. Do you realize that not only 2nd year FO's are picking up overtime? Do you realize that 5th year captains are picking up overtime in the FO seat? The problem is not limited to 2nd year pilots. There are a lot of people who feel they need the extra money. Maybe they have a sick family member with high medical bills. Or perhaps they were downgraded and now have a kid. Or maybe they are just greedy and could care less. Your attempt at public humiliation will not change their minds. But it will cause dissent and division among our ranks.

DONT CARE!!!!! Im in that boat and i still wouldnt pick up open time(that is of course if i had not already got furloughed)

actually I was talking about PSA. But wow you have capts picking up time in the right seat? And I thought we had problems. As far as getting the union involved in this, Its actually possible. We are entering contract negotiations. Most pilots i've spoken with are all in favor of trading SDO pay(time and a half) for duty rigs(open time not jr man) we can't refuse jr man here once they get ya, and they have more ways then just calling your phone. If i'm being extended an extra day I expect overtime pay on top of guarantee. But giving up SDO will solve the temptation of pilots to pick up trips. even after all recalls are made, and more efficient schedules will be created, with an extra few days off at that if we get rigs. Say goodbye to DH to TRI for a 23 hr layover.

I really think that newarkblows hit the nail on the head: Although picking up open time with people on furlough may be emotionally upsetting, the concern is rationally unfounded.

(emphasis added)


As fullflank says,

"Although I would love to think that if no one picks up open time those guys would get recalled but thats hard to imagine when rsv pilots, including myself are only flying 25 hrs/month. " (emphasis added)

The reality of the situation is that even if everyone stopped picking up open time entirely, no furloughees would be recalled. When reserve pilots are only flying 25 hours a month, the company is not anywhere close to being short on pilots. So what if everyone stopped picking up open time? Reserves would then fly 50-60 hours a month...still well below reserve guarantee. One can not make a rational argument that picking up open time is contributing to pilots being on furlough when all evidence points to a properly staffed airline. Granted, if reserve pilots were flying 75, 80, or more hours per month, one could argue that picking up open time is allowing the company to get by with less pilots, but the argument does not hold water when reserves are flying 25 hours per month.

A previous poster mentioned the company building numerous high credit lines. In regard to high credit lines, I do not fault the company or the union. We were hired to fly airplanes and the company is building lines according to our contract. An airline is not in business to employ as many pilots as possible, so I do not fault anyone (the company or the union) for allowing numerous high value lines from being constructed. The company is simply using us efficiently within the bounds of our contract.

If someone choses to pick up open time on his day off, I could care less. Why? Because it makes no difference to people on furlough whether he does or not. I only reserve the right to change my opinion if the facts change (i.e. if reserves are flying over minimum guarantee...more than 72 hrs a month...the company is approaching an understaffed condition and should recall pilots). Until such time, the company is properly staffed and the picking up of open time is of no consequence to anyone. I realize some my disagree with me, but PLEASE respond with LOGIC and FACTS....not emotional arguments (eg: open timers are stabbing fellow pilots in the back).

Finally, for the record, I personally have not picked up open time since we began furloughing, but simply because I do not want to work on my days off.

I'm 100% with you INSANO. And although you shouldn't publicly drop names you can PM them.;)
What's up with pilots not caring for their own? I'm out on the street right now bringing in a whopping $700 a month from unemployment and that doesn't even come close to paying my bills. Do they care? Hell no. They even voted down to have our medical insurance payed for while all of us are on furlough. So they can't part with $10 a month, or however much that would have cost them, then that shows you that they couldn't care less about us.:mad:
And what's up with the union?!?!? Are they doing ANYTHING for us??? I'm totally out of the loop as far as the furlough goes. You know it'd be nice to receive a monthly email saying SOMETHING! Are they going to get on these 90hr lines? That's ridiculous! And they also said they were going to work on getting our travel benefits extended. But nooooo.... Haven't heard anything on that either. So guess what i'm sitting here at home alone on christmas, well my gf is with me, but i couldn't go home to see my family. And although my friend offered me a buddy pass it would have ended up costing me $153 of which i DO NOT have. So thanks a lot!:rolleyes:


BTW if their on 2nd year pay at $30. Then their getting a $15 extra in pay, not $7. But that's besides the point...

First off, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all...

To all those on furlough, I hope you are getting by and finding a way to relax this holiday season. I've never been where you are, and thus, I cannot relate to it. That being said, I understand that times are very challenging right now, and I'm grateful to be where I am.

Moving forward: I want to introduce a slightly different question here.

If we can all concede that picking up open time with other company pilots on the street is, at the very least, bad form, then what is the most appropriate deterrent?

What is the best means to stop this without being destructive and really going overboard? Others have pointed out that it's not a simple black and white issue, as people doing it could also be in financial straits...

So what is appropriate? Pulling people aside? Listing the pilots that do it?

I haven't even made it to training yet, so this is all pretty much academic to me.

Again, Merry Christmas...and I hope things start looking up for everyone.

Not picking up open time may not bring people back any sooner but look at it this way. If people stop picking up open time and picking up their phones (volitiering for JM) then it would give the pilot group a more realistic view of how the company is staffed, and with that they can have a better hand when dealing with MGT. If the reserves are only flying 25 hours a month so be it. So make the company put them to work. Why is people so inclined to help the company out so much when there are people on the streets. When a bully punches your friend in the face do you turn around and help him with his math homework?
Please excuse the spelling and grammer had a few drinks tonight......

I think its funny to see people get on these boards who have been on the job for a whole year, maybe, talking about "brothers and sisters" and "solidarity" telling others who are much more experienced in this business what they should and should not do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but lets get real. I couldnt care less if people pick up open time. I can honestly say, I wouldnt care if I was furloughed either. Don't automatically assume people pick open time because they are greedy and just want more. Maybe for some, but that's not always the case. I know people at a certain US Express carrier who pick up open time. These people range from 1st year FO's to check airman. There is no solidarity here. That is obvious in our contract. The FO's were sold down the river with the excuse "you'll be Captains in a year anyway". The more senior guys here could care less about about some 8 month FO. Harsh, but it's reality. TK and KH will bring those furloughed back when they are good and ready and not a minute sooner. Pick up open time, don't pick it up, who cares. Spend more time focusing on getting people where they need to go safely, and less on what others, who you don't even know, are doing.

right on the money. take the emotion and frustration out of it and you'll see the big picture. PS trackpilot. I was all about getting you guys the medical when the first 27 were anounced, it was the senior guys who opposed it. One capt in particular that I remember saying, "those guys never payed any dues, 250 hr pilots, I'm not paying for that sh!t". and it would be more like a $150 out of every check since more were later forloughed. So don't take it out on the junior FO who might have an unexpected payment come up. Do the math. Ofcoarse, I do hope to see you back to work soon and good luck

I will never cross a picket line nore will I ever work for a unionless airline, but being furloughed is something you signed up for when you took on this profession. it is a part of life...it has been happening for years. If you didn't plan and prepare for it then you are stupid and uneducated...when it comes to open time...I pick it up at premium rate so I can pay my student loans off faster. I do this because I have to take care of me. Thats all there is to it.

If you are thinking I am or was strictly a GA pilot, think again. I was a card carrying union pilot for the first time 16 years ago.....

And there you have it.... most against and a few who will for their own personal gain. Such is the nature of the world. Good luck to all of those awaiting recall.

From a furloughed guy, as much as it pains me, you are right. Even when we were "properly" staffed, there was a certain amount of open time. There'll always be some. Because of conditions now, we pay more attention to it and discuss it to more detail. As far as a second year F/O picking up open time, that doesn't bother me as much as the Senior Capt with the cushy skd doing it just because he wants more money. To me, he's the greedy one. And for the record, don't become one them by spitefully lowering your principles to print names. Believe me, there's a special kind of hell for people like that.:(

Not sure what you are implying here since most Line Checks are last minute and usually a surprise. I fail to make the correlation of how pilot members discreetly policing each other relates to a standard company line check???

Perhaps you are suggesting that a Line Check Airman should deliberately fail or give an unsatisfactory report to a pilot during a line check as a form of punishment.

Let see if you feel the same way about that after a Check Airman, who may not like you personally, decides to abuse his/her power and fail YOU on a Line Check.

If this is what you are implying, and I think it is, it speaks volumes about you as a person with regards to integrity, professionalism, and maturity.

I can see both sides of the issue. In a way it would be nice to know that if we didn't pick up open time that T.K. would bring back the furloughes. But we are kidding ourselves if we think that we have any influence on what they do in Dayton. When they are good and ready they will bring the pilots back. But i think it is great when management has to pay 1.5 times for open time, and we get a minimum day pay. So for a quick out and back captains can make an extra $400, F/O's $200. And the company still has to pay the reserves. If people didn't pick up open time a pilot can't get the 1.5times pay and a reserve will be called out.
If you are a reserve pilot first or second year at PSA you won't break the $20k barrier. Per Diem will be almost nothing, and if you commute and have a crash pad/car or hotel to pay for you are really hurting. What's wrong with someone trying to make some cash? Not like they handed out the furlough notices. How about people trying to get their 1000hrs PIC so when the real airlines start hiring they are ready for it? Flying 30-40hrs a month on reserve it will take 3 years to get that. Picking up 20hrs a month will drop it fast. Will you be doing the junior pilots a favor by picking up open time so you can move on and leave an empty slot?
Lastly the lines at PSA are 80-90hrs. Why is that OK? If people really wanted the F/O's back on property then they will call in sick to reduce the monthly hours to a reasonable 75hrs. One sick call per two months. The end of the month to the beginning of the next. But that would never happen cause we have a "Do as i say not as i do" attitude.

No open time pick up with people out on the street.

It's just that simple.

This world isn't black and white buddy.