Information about MPD!
 

Hi i'm new this forum! I'm serving in Iraq with the US Army currently! I work on Apache helicopters! I have about 50 hours as a student pilot in Cessna 150, 172 and the Piper Tomahawk! I plan to get my PPL as soon as we return to state side! My goal is to be an airline pilot! I plan on going to MPD (Mesa Pilot Development) AKA Mesa airlines school after Army! So far, every pilots I contacted, even the Apache pilots have good things about MPD! They have Veterans affairs program, so the Army can pay for most of my flight training! Can some of you share your information or experiences with me? Thank you!

MAPD is the fastest method I am aware of to get into the airlines with low or no time. The biggest drawback to the quick entry is the large expense. If you can have the govt. pay for a lot of it because you are in the service, then you are getting a great deal.

I do recommend Mesa Pilot Development, it is a good program.

Just be aware of what life at Mesa will be like, however, before you get started. Mesa pays low rates to their pilots (especially starting out) and treats them fairly poorly. Many of their pilots choose to quit or transfer to other regionals because they get fed up with the treatment. Not trying to scare you, but don't want you to be "surprised" after investing so much to get there.

There are BENEFITS to this however: poor treatment creates an environment where many choose not to stick around too long, this means much quicker upgrade times than at most regionals because of the high rate of attrition. If your goal is to eventually fly for a larger carrier (which I assume it is), and you are sure you can put up with the treatment for a few years, I'd say MAPD and Mesa are the best (quickest) way into the business.

Good luck

Thank you for your service to our country! The apache is one cool bird! Be prepared to get a lot of negative responses! I'd avoid MAPD at all costs! (sorry bud, coudln't resist the exclamation point thing!) You'll spend twice as much as you would through a traditional flight school, and you'll be stuck in the right seat of a low-paying airline for quite a while because you won't have the requirements to move to the left seat. Going the traditional route may take a little longer, but you'll be in less debt and from about 250 hours or so on up, you'll be getting paid and working with people that are doing the same thing you're doing (NETWORKING!!) Go to MAPD, and you're trying to pay back a huge amount in high-intrest loans on a salary that at the end of the day isn't even a living wage if you consider all the time you're not getting paid while in uniform. There are a bunch of people in the industry that don't have much respect for this type of "pay for training" where you essential buy a job. Also, be wary of any flight school that charges you more for using your GI Bill bennefits. I know of a few that do this. I wouldn't go there. You earned that right to use those funds, and shouldn't be taken advantage of as a result.

There have been a couple heated threads on this very topic. I'd look for those. Also, check out the flight traning fourm. There are probably 200,000 threads (highly exaggerated, but it seems like that) threads that ask the same questions you're asking.

There were a few ex-mil guys there when I was there. Total cost a year or two ago came right in around $60k-$65k for flight training, college, and living expenses for the 1.5 years or so you are there. The military covers, what, like 60% of that, right? It's a pretty good deal. Keep in mind though, when you will be getting out, MAG will be in contract negotiations. Not a very good time to be wanting a job at the company IMO.

Coming from the military, you'll be able to fit right in, you're used to getting sh!t on.

Oh, and for the love of god, stop using "!" at the end of each sentence.

Yup.

Two things wrong here...

1) MAPD graduate do not come anywhere near to meeting ICAO ATP mins due to their low PIC time...they might have the seniority to upgrade in 2 years, but they often won't have the flight experience for 4-5 years. I have known folks to buy a 152 to get the 1200 hours PIC...in fact that 152 got passed around a bit...

2) MAPD and other pay-for-training (PFT) programs are generally not held in high regard within the rest of the industry. Graduates are considered (rightly or wrongly) to have bought a job and to have a very shallow experience base. Many airline pilots hold each PFTer personally responsible for the current state of the industry ( I do not, so hold the flame).

This can create real problems if you ever decide to leave Mesa for a major airline...you will be competing for jobs with folks who have CFI and/or 135 experience in their background. And if you think you will want to stay at Mesa...let me just suggest that you keep all of your options open...


Please read some threads on flight training here and at flightinfo.com before you commit to a PFT program

Good Luck

1) MPD isn't a PFT program, not sure what gave you that idea
2) MAG pilots don't seem to have problems finding other employment if they want to (skywest gets a lot of the FO's, southwest and America West get/got a lot of the CA's)

1) Yes it is.

2) MAG pilots who worked as CFI's do fine. To clarify, other regionals will hire any MAG FO, if a lateral move is your aspiration. However, there are people at Major airlines out there who resent the whole PFT concept and will not hire a PFT/ non-CFI applicant. Maybe you won't run into one of those guys on your interview board... as always, there are exceptions to the rule...do you feel lucky? AWA/USAir will not be hiring for a long time, and SWA is far from a sure thing for any applicant.

The MAPD crowd will probably tell you it ain't so, but that's just wishful thinking on their part. If you have any doubts, go over to the APC major airline forum and ask those boyz what they think about an MAPD graduate flying airliners...

You can make your own choice, but please be informed when you do.

MPD has 2 programs. The one for 0 time pilots and the one with people who have the commercial and multi engine license. I would avoid the first one because, firstly, it doesn't apply to you but to people that actually have to pay it's ridiculously expensive for what you receive, 250 hours of flight time. Secondly you won't get a good reputation if you tell your fellow pilots that your a MPD graduate. Thirdly your going to be a FO for a while.

If I was you, I would get the commercial, multi-engine at a local flight school and become a CFI and instruct untill you have around 600 hours. THEN try the 2nd PACE option at the MPD. This way you still get a job at reduced minumums and you have that CFI experience.

I agree PACE is a much better option, but if you get a CFI and acquire a few 100 hours of dual-given...you may as well just continue to CFI for 1000 hours, Mesa will hire you at that point anyway with no cash outlay.

If hiring is slow, PACE will probably get you in sooner, but that is not the case right now.

The ab-initio is fast-paced training PP thru Comm-AMEL in high performance equipment to airline standards. It is a good value ($135 or so for a Bonanza, $250 or so for a Baron). Where can you find a Cessna 172 for less than $125 anymore?

It's a two year program...that is not fast paced. I did my IR, COM, ME , CFI, CFII at a local school in 6 months (already had the PVT). Did the MEI while employed as a CFI.

First off, I am neither an advocate of MAPD and MESA nor an opponent. I have tried to be objective with my comments, but let's stick to the facts:

This depends on several factors. First, what equipment you are on. The Beech 1900D upgrade does not require the ICAO mins as you do not fly international. The ICAO mins will also likely be waived for much of the Dash-8 domestic flying. Even so, if you fly regularly you will meet all ICAO mins after 3 years with Mesa (assuming you graduate from MAPD with bare minimum time). And the upgrade to CA on the ERJ is currently less than 2 years, and the CRJ about 3 years. So even if you have to wait to meet ICAO mins, you still are looking at going from private pilot to the left seat of a regional jet in 4.5 years total. If you go with the CFI route you are going to spend 3.5 years+ before you can apply to a regional. As pointed out, however, the CFI route does certainly give you some invaluable additional experience flying which is always a good thing.

I certainly can't comment here on what other airline pilots think. Perhaps this is true. However, I would think that this is a rather narrow view held by a select few. I will say that I personally know and/or know of MAPD grads that have gone to United, NW, SW, JetBlue, Fed Ex, UPS, US Airways, Continental and Alaska. As a matter of fact, I know of at least 7 MAPD students who were sent to the program by their father's who were Captains at United, Continental, SW and Alaska - all of whom thought MAPD was the best option for their child to enter the airline aviation business.

I would think once you build up the time to meet a major airline's hiring requirements, whether you were MAPD or not is going to be of little significance. Your personality, competence, and connections are going to be what gets you the job.

Actually I think this is a really good idea. I'll make the post. I'm very curious to see what those guys have to say.

I cannot tell you as much about Mesa Pilot Development as I can about other academies, but I just want to throw out two ideas to consider before you consider Mesa's program:

1. Have you ever been to Farmington, New Mexico? Well if you haven't, then I would recommend keeping it that way. Do you want to spend 2 years of your life there???

2. Do you have a college degree?
If yes, Mesa is a bad idea. It takes longer than most the other pay for training paths (2 years) because you receive a 2 year degree from San Juan College.

If no, then go get a real 4 year degree. First off, many major airlines require a 4 year degree. Second, you should have a backup career incase you get furloughed from an airline job (and it may happen). Having a 4 year degree is the highest recommendation I can give.

All the other things aside (high cost, flying for mesa, Farmington, NM), the fact that their program is linked to a 2 year AA degree is the worst part of this program. I would not recommend this.

I second that. At the end of the program you are given an interview after you've worked your ass off and got all Bs or better in classes. You are held to the same standards as the 1000hr street CFI guy/gal. If you are hired, this means that you have the same knowledge and preparation that the street folk do (perhaps a little more). The only thing you lack is 750 hours of single engine piston time-- which IMO is not excellent preparation for a jet - the B58 and CRJ FTD are better preparation. You're not paying for a job- you are simply granted a chance to interview and prove yourself. These bridge programs have been around for a while- Piedmont used to hire UND grads at 250 hours. Was that PFT?

I spent 2 years as a CFI, as did my contemporaries (with degrees) and things were slow then. Today you can get a call with 1000/100, so that's less than 2 years.




I am neither an opponent or proponent of MAPD, I am simply relaying information that some readers of this forum have no means of acquiring on their own...they don't spend much time in airbus or boeing jumpseats. I would not refuse to hire an MAPD grad, many are my friends...but all other factors being equal I would probably hire someone who has the added depth of the CFI background over someone who doesn't. And there are guys who harbor serious resentment over the state of the industry and their careers, and the PFT issue just makes a convenient outlet...they are out there.

Now obviously if dad's a senior captain, or you hold an affirmative action golden ticket... then all you need are the mins. I am addressing the circumstances of the average pilot.

What? That's crazy, MDP prices are outrageous. $250 for a twin? You can fly a light twin for half what it takes at MPD. I bet the owners of that school are bathing in money wondering how many suckers are willing to go there. Oh, and by the way $74 for a 1972 C172 around here.

Hahaha, I certainly can't disagree with this statement. It is quite a sacrifice.

This is a very good point. At MAPD you are trained specifically for airline flying and have to meet performance deadlines or you are removed from the program. The MESA interview process does not grant you preference or leniency because you were MAPD, it only gets you the interview. I attended a ground school of 40 jet FOs: 20 street hires and 20 MAPD grads. Those that washed out of the training were 3:1, street hires:MAPD respectively.

Definitely a legit point. You can get your ratings much cheaper than MAPD rates. MAPD gives you two things: 1) a low time interview with a regional airline; and 2) higher quality training than your average FBO. But they are making you pay...it is a cash cow, business operation. MAPD isn't there to be charitable to aspiring pilots, they are there to make money.

As an alternative...if you don't want to do the full program. Go get your PP, IR and COM as quickly as possible, then apply to the MAPD PACE program. This allows you to dodge a lot of the expense, but still pick up the low time interview.

Just thought I'd add this, my flight school rents well-equipped 172N with dual navcoms, and IFR approved GPS for $99 an hour. A 2004 172SP with Autopilot, a KLN-94, and MFD-550 will set you back only $130 (five more than your quote). $140 will get you a 2006 172 with a G-1000.

Second, those 750 or so hours in a single teaching somebody give you something that I, nor anybody else here will ever have at 250 hours regardless of background. Decision making skills. It's great that you know how to push buttons and do flows in a CRJ. I'd prefer to learn that in training. On their dime, not mine.

What like should I fly at night or day? :) Actually what they don't have at 250 is experience!! Hey atleast the 250 hour guys aren't flying the 747 like they do in asia right out of pilot cadet training.

Ok bud. Whatever you say. These guys pay for their flight training (around $45k or so for the private-multi commercial) and receive a job interview in doing so. Can it be done cheaper? Yes, but that's not the argument here...they're not paying MAG for groundschool, and if they don't pass and get kicked to the curb they at least have something to show for it - they still have their commerical multi.

A traditional "PFT" operation is you show up, qualified for the job, but you must fork over $XX,XXX for the training that the employer is required to give you in 135 or 121 ops. This is not the case here. They are paid from day one at mesa. Again, this is not the argument here however.

Would you believe that more of the CFI's wash out percentage wise than the graduates of the program?!?!?

These people also probably resent the fact that when they were hired at a major, they had instructed for 2+ years, flown freight for 2+ years, and were finally given an interview at a "commuter" flying B99's for $10/hr. IOW, you can't please everyone, but they are certainly few and far between. They don't give a rat's @ss how you got your time when you get to a major (whenever they will hire again...).

85% of the US Air EAST pilot group will retire in the next 5 years (assuming age 60 stays the same). There's a LOT of hiring coming up BTW.

Instead of jumping on the bandwagon and dissing these guys, open your eyes and you'll find that everywhere you go there are exceptions to the rule. I met a United (MAINLINE) CA a few months ago who knew the CA I was with; this guy was hired at United at the age of 21 with 1000 TT and a few hundred multi after doing an internship there thru his college (NO INSTRUCTING BTW!).

Pft
 

Who's to say where the line of acceptability is between paying for your ratings and paying for your job? Isn't a training contract paying for your job? What about the low wages of being a regional FO it too seems like paying for your job.


In the end we all pay dearly for the career. Some pay with wasted years of their lives others pay in cash. I would highly advise paying in cash. In the long run it is much cheaper.


SKyHigh

You 'da man!

Ask any of the ab-initio students who came in with a PP or better if it's fast paced or not. By the way, most students who survive the training are start to finish in 15 months, not 24. No summer vacation in Farmtown, bud. AND, these guys get the IR/COM-SE/COM-ME in 4-5 months.

Most of the people commenting on this subject have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. Avoid opinions based in heresay and generalities.

MAPD is a unique training opportunity for a lot of people. It is not PFT (although you could argue that the PACE program is), training takes place in high performance equipment. Could it be done with cheaper equipment? Sure, but at least you aren't paying $200/hr for a 172 w/CFI like some other national flight schools.

Yes, it is PFT. At the point where the COM AMEL training ends and CRJ training begins. You are paying JO to train you in an airplane so that he gives you preferential hiring...ie buying a job.

As I have said before, MAPD is a quality program that performs as advertised...that is very unusual in the flight-training con-game...umm, industry. I am however trying to educate entry level folks as to some of the downsides of PFT which are not obvious to them at this point in their careers. I am not here to bash folks who have already crossed that bridge...that's a waste of valuable keyboard wear & tear.

Bud? I doubt that you would call me "bud" if you met me in person.

Specifically, MAPD PFT starts when you start the CRJ training.

Absolutely I believe that. But the CFIs didn't have a year-long CRJ prep course and 40 hours of sim. A chimpanzee could pass an RJ sim ride with enough training.

The way to look at is like this:

The CFIs spend a couple years learning the material...most pass the final exam, but a few don't.

The PFT's spend a couple years memorizing the answers to the exam...and then some of them STILL flunk out :eek:



You said the magic word...EAST. If the eastern boyz prevail, there will be a different mindset compared to the old AWA. Only time will tell on that.



There are ALWAYS exceptions. I'm talking to the average white guy pilot who doesn't have a trust fund, an uncle on the 777, or an affirmative action ticket.

I'm not jumping on ANY bandwagons...right or wrong or somewhere in between, my conclusions are my own and have been formed on-line and in the jumpseats of various other carriers.

You do realize that the graduates go to other a/c other than the CRJ, right? By your reasoning they wouldn't be passing the 1900, D8, or ERJ ground schools and sim because they haven't had any schooling in that area. Joe Smoe can pass ground/sim training at pretty much any airline.

He was the average white guy, no trust fund, no relatives to walk his resume in, etc. He worked hard while interning and viola, he gets a job. I helped an AirTran guy brush up in a twin 2 years ago because he was getting placed in a ground school there. 1200TT, 200 multi, all piston from CFI'ing and renting. He worked as a ramp manager at AirTran and they gave him a shot at the 717. Again, no trust fund, a white dude, didn't know anyone in flight ops, etc. etc. You'd be surprised how many people are hired at low time (I unfortunately, wasn't one of them...).

My biggest issue with the low time stuff is that they seperate the pilot group. If you get a lot of low timers in at the airline, those guys want growth and upgrades, not QOL. They will severely handicap the unions' role in trying to get the QOL, pay scales, etc. raised. This is why, IMO, mesa is so hated.

That's a load of sh!t, and I'll stop short of calling you/him a liar. I have FIVE GOOD friends at AirTran (all captains with at least 5 years seniority) and ALL have walked a signed copy of my resume to the lady that is in charge of the hiring. She said she wanted to help out, but couldn't because of the 500 hr 121 PIC requirement (I lack that but have a large amount of total and jet time). They stand HARD and FAST to that MINIMUM requirement.

So I don't know how this "guy" you "helped" got that opportunity. Unless he was ex-military with 1000 hrs of jet jockey time or was just pulling your leg.

There have been low time people hired at airlines in the distant past, but it was a different time then, when the industry wasn't saturated with QUALIFIED pilots and the ones that usually got the call tended to be of the "protected" status of employment. I believe they call that "making the quota".

Settle down there. Re-read my post. AirTran has/had a very strong internal hiring policy in place. If you don't want to believe it, fine.

According to him, the lowest time guy they hired was around 700TT, but he had worked for the company for about 5 years. But you don't believe it, so you don't care I suppose.

Why is it so had to believe?

FedEx has a strong internal hiring policy, too, however you must at least meet the mins prior to interviewing.

I could believe this if it happened before 9/11. They were hiring anyone and everyone back then. If after say, 2001, I'd have a hard time believing it.

Yeah, "according to him". Do you have a name (if that's not prohibited on this site)? I'd like to ask my friends about him. If not, I'll ask them if they have heard of this internal hiring policy.

I would suggest that AirTran holds to this as well, especially when looking at the vast amount of QUALIFIED pilots looking for work.

Who knows, maybe it is the undeserving that always get the breaks.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Well, I just want to thank everyone for the replys. I'm still looking into going to MPD, I know it's a lot of money, but since I'm in the military, I should get financial help! Plus, I have money saved up! Thank you!

The Asian Carriers also have a higher acccident rate than any US carrier. They fly good equipment, and are up to ICAO standards, so what else could it be?

New guy with my 2 cents on MAPD. I have flown at gateway, spent time in the practice areas and heard the mapd folks around. I will tell you the only reason this program works is because of the tight leash that mesa now has on anyone coming out of this program. At the beginning of this thread it was said perfect about ICAO mins! The FTD sucks and in no way is a device that helps the learning process of the crj. The attitude of the students at mapd in my opinion is the worst. "I will get a job in a crj in 4 years" if you get recommended. A school that will allow someone to spend $30,000 on an instrument rating says something...maybe its not the student. one of my instrument students came from mapd with over 100 hours dual givin and could not fly an ndb. The best thing i heard from that student was "i've shot this approach 20 times and once in a while i can intercept the outbound course" and dont give me the nonsence that all the ndb's are going away, it is a basic navaid. and i love the one line above that they are trained to airline standards, put a mapd student in a 10kt x-wind and hang on. and lets not forget the faculity at mapd either. i have only met one person there that i have any respect for. the one "fish" (if you know what i mean) is by far the most unperfesional person that i have ever met. so here is what it boils down to, ICAO mins probably aren't going away. There are plenty of street captians that can take those positions. mapd is the compete success story of lies, incompetent training and extorsion! look back 10 years and see how the program has changed!