Pinnacle and ATP Schools, new lower standard!
 

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli...sition_program

Pinnacle will hire you if you have 350 hours and complete the airline transition program. ATP should be ashamed, I'm surprised that ATP has become this low! I thought they are a respectable company, now their showing that they're after the money! You know that Pinnacle doesn't benefit from hiring 350 hour pilots, there's some serious money handeling that is going on behind the scenes between ATP and Pinnacle.

Can you read? It says nothing about hiring people at 350 hours. That's the minimum just to enter the program. Looks like the flying includes 150 hours flight time. 350+150=500 minimum.

CAN YOU READ? It says "conditional offers of employement" All you have to do is complete the $25K course.

Regardless, I don't see how the airlines benefit from these programs? This is ignorance on my part for sure, but it only seems like the training facility would benefit. I mean, I got my jet jobs with low time, but I still worked hard and took advantage of programs like the SimuFlite right seat program to gain the training necessary to be a competitive applicant. This seems like a bunch of pilots who want to live the dream without investing the effort. Again, this is my ignorance, so maybe some of the following posts can enlighten me.

CJ

I'm sure they probably split the payment with the airline in some way or another. I'm at ATP now, and there's no way I'm doing the airline transition program. I'm looking forward to instructing for a few years and then taking some odd jobs flying around to build my hours

"This seems like a bunch of pilots who want to live the dream without investing the effort. Again, this is my ignorance, so maybe some of the following posts can enlighten me"

No man, you got it right. You can buy your way into anything now, even an airline job. No need to waste time instructing or building any real experience, just sign on this here dotted line.......

I've always liked ATP, not many people complain about them as opposed to a DCA. I don't like what this program has become, though. It's partly just a marketing ploy, which is bad enough, but putting such low time guys in airline jets, as their first job in aviation, is a disgrace to the profession.

Let's see.......spend upwards of $30,000 (fees, living expense, etc) for a salary that will gross maybe $20,000 BEFORE TAXES. Oh boy, be still my heart! Flying regionals with 500tt. That's the reason I won't let my family non- rev on any of them.

Not bashing the majoity of RJ pilots, but 500tt is not enough time to let some wet behind the ears kid fly my family around in a twin turbine.

This doesn't surprise me. In this day in age it seems like the training side of aviation makes more profit then the transport side.

In this day in age its all about exploiting and capitalizing on someone's weekness. For example, you take a 350 hour pilot who can't find a job and is willing to pay money they don't have to get an unstable- low paying job- with no promise for a secure future. Now you take a commuter that's a sinking ship and a greedy-money hungry flight school and come up with some crackerjack Airline Training Program. This is just capitalism, but it leaves room for thought.

One thought is a pilot with 350 hours doesn't even have the mins for a VFR 135 Charter in a C-172. So what makes them qualifies as an "Airline Pilot" carrying 50-70 pax? You got me- but then again, I didn't write the rule book.

Now you can't blame the flight schools- them being scumbags in an industry standard. You have to bring into question the airline operations involved in these schemes.

Well stated.

I'm looking at the positions and a/c that some of you guys are currently flying that are responding to this particular issue. I believe that there will be a thorough screening process to make sure that out of the pool of applicants, that only the best qualified (whatever that may be) is chosen. These guys at ATP have to start somewhere. Technology has allowed this industry and others as well to shorten the training process. JMO.

I believe that since everybody is different, there are some low time guys that could probably easily transition right into the CRJ, and airline training programs are, pretty good, but the problem I see with these programs is it opens the floodgates too wide, and lets in the low time guys who can, but also lets in the low time guys who can't. They are out there. When I was an instructor I had a very young kid from Mexico come here to train, and by the time he had his Commercial, he could fly circles around me. (He did have a better instructor than I had :)!) He could have flown anything he wanted, but he is an exception, not a norm. I just remember the first time I flew the Citation, which is a very simple jet, that things just happened so fast! I am already apprehensive about my upcoming CRJ class. I just feel like being patient and building experience is the way to go! For me, Instructing was the best thing that happened to me. At 350 hours, I would have never survived an airline training regimen. Just my 2% of a dollar.

CJ

ATPWannabe, that is very well put, and an excellent point!

I agree. they should not be lowering the hring minimums just because the airplanes are getting moer advanced. if the autopilot goes down or something crazy happens, an RJ is still a BIG airplane to try to properly fly if you don't have the experience. and you HAVE to plan for something like that happening while in the hiring process. I would like to say that the airlines aren't that stupid, but I have actually seen a couple guys get hired on with about 500TT to ASA and another airline.

Jase:

Thanks for the kind words.

My plans are to take the CFI route after finishing my initial training at ATP, hopefully later this fall. I plan on enrolling in the fast track program for the Airline Career Pilot Program. In the meantime, I'm planning on getting my PPL at a local FBO here in Naples, FL.

The CFI's at ATP get the RJ course at a reduced rate (90% off) only after fulfilling their CFI obligation if I'm not mistaken.

God knows, I can't see myself in the right seat of an RJ at 350 hours TT.

There is no time obligation to instruct at ATP. The RJ program costs $2000. If you came off of the street and took it, it costs $6000. Personally, I am trying to avoid that program. And talking about hiring low time guys. Okay, so what is the difference between 500hrs and 1000hrs. Not much, you get to certain learning plateau as an instructor, then after that, it is just laps around the pattern, maneuvers, or straight and level cross country. Flying is not hard, and if someone can grasp flying a jet at 500 or 1000 hours, who cares. I think alot of people are upset because they didn't go somewhere like ATP and get a bunch of multi time and instruct and get even more. I don't totally agree with everything they do. It is not hard to fly a jet, just because it moves faster, doesn't mean squat. I was an NFO, and I challenge those guys out there with there 1000s of hours of autopilot jet time and see if they could handle a low level flight at 500' AGL going 300 kts. I guarantee you that you couldn't do that, unless of course they are prior military. What I don't agree with is hiring 18 year olds to fly jets. They are not mature enough and I don't think they could handle the stress if something did happen, they are just kids.

OK!!! A 66% discount. ;)

Do they even qualify to pay taxes at that salary? I understand why some think that there is not much difference between a 500 and a 1000 hour guy as far as operation, but there is a huge difference when it comes to experience.

What about 18 year old F/As? I hear there are quite a few at the regionals.

cdt57,

thanks for your posts about ATPs. Please keep us updated on your progress / progression from ATP - CFI@ ATP - 1st regional / 135 job. I'm interested because as a current AD AF support officer looking to transition into aviation (flying for an airline) I want to know how ATP is...

Thanks,
LAFF

Were you hired at AWAC?

in all fairness i didnt feel like any better of a pilot at 650 compared to 350.

but i still am doing it the hard way, nonetheless

Family friend of ours was hired in the late 60's at 19 years old and 250 hours at NWA on the DC9. Looks like now days it's an RJ, not a DC9. Flight time and age are just numbers.

LAfrequentflyer,

I just got out of AD AF and switched to the Reserve IMA program (two weeks ago), I'm headed to ATP in a few weeks and I'll let you know what I find. Either way, it looks like a lot of people will hate me for "paying for training". I wish I knew where everyone found it for free.

One good connection you might have (unless you're at LAFB) is training IFT students at the local aero club. I'm looking at this option when I'm done up at ATP.

Also, you might want to consider the reserve programs, specifically IMA, you stay in service (assuming they'll still want us in ten years) and it provides a good parachute if you're laid off in the future...Best part is, you pick when you work, you don't have to work the traditional wknd/month and two weeks per year.

[ I was an NFO, and I challenge those guys out there with there 1000s of hours of autopilot jet time and see if they could handle a low level flight at 500' AGL going 300 kts. I guarantee you that you couldn't do that, unless of course they are prior military.


Try 200' through Red Flag excercises (north of Nellis AFB) going 400 kts (speed limit of a B-52) :cool:

samc,

Thanks...Looking forward to your insights...Which location for your training?


-LAFF

What is an F/A?

.crewdog52, I never got that low, but I am sure that it was awesome

F/A = Flight Attendants.


Was very awesome! Huge pucker factor on the ole sphincter the first time though .

LAfrequentflyer,

I'll be at the Phoenix location in July. Right now I'm just studying my butt off with the initial package of books I was sent.

all of us young kids wouldnt be able to do that, but thats not what airline flying is, so i dont see how it applies

What goes around...comes back around.;)

It is real flying though. Tell anyone who has been there that it is not. It is the hardest type out there in my opinion. It applies in the way that you hear guys on here saying that unless you have thousands of hours, you have no real experience. Just because they have all of that time, doesn't mean that they are gods gift to aviation. I was just implying that they couldn't handle that type of flying, unless they had been there. You have to make decisions quicker than the airplane, and at 500'AGL, you don't have a lot of time. At FL240, you have a lot more time to think about it. I guess what I meant to say that flying up there is easy. I was just agruing that in the civilian world of flying, there really isn't much different between someone with 500 hours and 1000 hours as a flight instructor. It was just more laps in the pattern and more maneuvers. You reach a plateau as a flight instructor after so many hours of doing it. The new experiences will come once they move on to say 121 or 135 ops.

I think these programs are ok, think about it. They are getting good training and would you rather have some person next to you who came from a well structured program with good training who maybe has a little less hours, or some guy who has 2000 hours flying out of an uncontrolled field and has probably never been in class b airspace. I will take the low time guy anytime.

I guess that is what I was trying to get at. You can earn great experience just by flying out of a certain class of airport. It doesn't matter how many hours, but what type of flying was accomplished in those hours.

From personal experience there's a big difference between the 500 hour and 1000 hour CFI. Typically CFI's start with ASEL stuff, then work up to CFII, and finally MEI. You probably plateau around 1000 hours dual given, assuming you have done signifiacnt CFII and MEI. I do agree that a CFI who works only in uncontrolled airspace isn't learning as much.

Brand-new CFIs are usually nervous enough to stay alert and not push their own envelope too much. Statistics have shown that 600 hour CFIs have a tendency to get complacent, and are thus more prone to accidents. The ones who scare themselves (and survive) are less accident prone by the time they reach 1000 hours. I have personally seen this function like clockwork in my subordinate CFI's, and we actually would do a safety seminar at the 500-600 hour point to try to reinforce this lesson before our people learned it the hard way...some of them still learned it the hard way.

You won't see someone with thousands of hours and years of flying experience breaking company rules by taking an empty plane to FL410 just because the it's certified to!

What your saying the captain was asleep during that flight?

I thought the captain "dude" had 6,900 hours.

rickair7777
 

I personally started off with my MEII. I have been instructing at a Class C airport, and have about 600 hours with 470 multi. I have been scared good a couple of times, once during a stall, the other during a Vmc demo. Everytime I go up, it feels like groundhogs day. The same stuff over and over, I am not complacent though, I still keep my guard up, but on a personal level, I feel that I am no longer learning anymore. Now it is just about continuing to give quality instruction, and build flight time. I need a new challenge to further advance myself in my aviation career. I guess for alot of CFIs, they don't start of in a multi, and not all in controlled airspace. I think the experience is more important than total time, that is all I am saying

MEI is definately where the best "learning opportunities" occur...VMC demo in the pattern, single-engine stalls, etc. I agree that if you've been scared a few times as an MEI, you have probably popped your invulnerability bubble and are about ready to move on...but you still might learn a few things. Most folks don't get to do MEI until later in their game.

rickair7777
 

What is your background, I noticed on your profile you said that you have both military and civilian flight experience, but you also talk about being a CFI.