I feel your pain. Ready reserve in Puerto Rico was the pits. I have more time in the jumpseat of a 757 then I do flying the ATR. When I computed my take-home pay after cost of travel, crash pad, car, food, etc I ended up with the figure of about $6.50 an hour for each hour I sat and flew the recliner. Always away from my wife, friends and family. I began to feel very disconnected from everyone.

Shame of you. Bad form.

When I was hired at AE, we were told we would sit reserve for a month at the most...then hiring stopped. The result, a lot of people around my seniority number sitting reserve (the only line holders we've had have been TDY)...without a choice.

The point Capt Insano choses to overlook is that things change. Nobody expects to be on reserve for a year or more, such a thing wasn't foreseeable. So we could research all we want and not get a true picture. Research up until a year ago would have shown sunshine, roses and fluffly little kittens...but that isn't what many of us have now. We're stuck with a turd sandwich and trying to eat it as best we can.


I just want to add:
'Paying dues' is such a stupid phrase and signifies nothing. You can't quantify it. It's worthless. How does one define 'paying one's dues'? Spending 2 years on reserve? Having 3,000 hrs? Flying cargo planes full of rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong? I think we've all 'paid our dues' by getting our certificates and becoming airline pilots. Some people get an easy road and some get a hard road, but in some form, we have all paid our dues.

well said pontius

Pontius said it very well, we have all paid our dues in one form or another. Some guys in my class had 200 hours, other and my self had closer to 2000. We all had to do different things and fly different airplanes to get where we are, a few just had to sign a large loan. Bottom line is that we are all in this slump right now and it sucks, plain and simple.

I have 2 years in at Uncle Huli's flying circus and I am back on reserve out in Dulles until my inevitable furlough as our fleet will literally be half of what it was May of last year. 2 leg commute to IAD with 10 days off, having to commute on those days off, a wife at home with a baby on the way. I'm sorry, I don't see the beauty in this line of work right now. Am I going to quit flying, no. Am I going to quit TSA, you betcha. Being an "airline pilot" is not worth the damn headache. To thowse of you who stick it out in the airlines, my hat's off to you. For those of you that bail for a better career, good for you and best of luck.

This thread was started so we could pretty much gripe about our plight as airline pilots. No need to flame anyone for expressing their opinions. We cna't all be fortunate enough to be at a better airline in the left seat holding a line, some of us are on reserve at TSA.

Ba da da da da

i'm lovin it

I can't even get a job at mcdonalds

wait, really? why not?
(im asking because im hoping to get a second job in the dining sector.)

Grow a pair... Really... This kinda talk is embarassing.
 

I think the biggest difference between the times of old and new is the attitude of the people. Lately all I hear from new hires is what they deserve, and what they don't have (A airline pilot job with only 250 hours. What more could you want?). 25-30 year ago if something needed to be changed the employees came together, volunteered time with their unions, ensured everyone was on the same side, and fought for it. Picket line crossers were beat up behind buildings, and some pilots even sacrificed their jobs for months and even years standing up for what the believed the pilot group deserved (Most of the rules in the contracts you are flying under today). The point being, get out of this forum and put your energy into making change. The airlines have used these difficult times to make us believe we need them, when in fact, if they want to stay in business, they need us. (*rant* The next problem is 200-300 hour pilots who can't wait to sit in the right seat of a turbo-prop for the same wage as a manager at McD's.) Anyway whining on here makes us look weak, and is contributing to the lowering morale.

Sorry for the rant but hopefully you can understand my point...

I have to say that not to my surprise whilst the topic is grim, this thread has turned out to be a very informative and in some odd way positive one.

First and foremost, I am happy to see that even though we all love this industry there is still a sense of integrity amongst us that allows for a critical point of view. Things can always be worse and can always be better. The question is where do we sit in comparison to where we want to or need to be industrywide.

As someone earlier mentioned, it is great to be 21 years old and have the ability to jett-set around the world. However, this will not sustain the goals of most in the long run if you plan on developing past that particular stage of life into a more developed, conventional, and responsible form that the majority of people evolve into.

Not to say that if you dont make that transition there is something wrong with you, but its to say that most will make that transition and since we entered this profession for reasons other then a seasonal gig we need this to sustain our lifestyle and goals through all stage of life and not just puberty. Otherwise its nothing more than the equivalent of working at the ice cream shop during your summers while off from junior high for all the free ice cream you can eat.

After reading all of the posts in this thread, and they are many considering how long it has been (24 hours), I think the general idea is that the industry is broken. Its not what most of us expect out of this career and its not what we would want for our future or for any more time frankly speaking.

We are, unlike the common misconception of our customers, overworked and underpaid by a great deal. I cannot think of any time that I have explained my daily schedule and routine to a person unfamiliar with this industry and ended my rant by telling them how much or how little money I make without them in complete shock. I do believe that most of you out there have shared the same experience in one form or another.

I have been thinking about this issue for a long time and have been asking many of their opinion. The young, the old, the new, and the veteran have all pitched in their thoughts and its been interesting.

The question is why and how did it get so bad?

Im not so much interested as to who is to blame, so please, dont take this opportunity to say what is the easiest or what is been beaten into our heads by self interested parties. Lets think thoughtfully and critically and figure this out collectively regardless of our biases.

This forum affords us an opportunity that is rare in the outside world. It affords us the anonymity of internet which allows us to break away from old hard set political views and biases and brings us the ability to critically and collectively identify the problem, formulate a solution, and create a path between the two.

Share you thoughts and ideas.

I only ask of two thing:

1. Do not fight, patronize, ridicule, or any of above. Its not productive and it ruins the spirit of the discussion.

2. Provide details of your thoughts and solutions. Tell us not only what you think but also why.


I am looking forward to your thoughts.

Cosmo

3 words, National Seniority List! As long as this stays out of reach and is considered a “pipe dream,” pilots will always get screwed period!

Furloughs or layoffs would be just a little bearable if you could expect a starting salary that equates your experience in professional flying. I think a National Seniority List would be hard as hell to do but nothing is impossible! And until a list or a system like that comes about, we will continue to see threads like this for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!!

I have heard the idea of National Seniority List. I also agree that nothing is impossible.

Could you go in a bid more detail as to why you like the idea of a National Seniority List and what you think might be its benefits and shortfalls?

No, loving it is not enough.

This is a job, like any other. I'm not going to allow my emotional enjoyment of this job to erode any ability to improve my quality of life or pay. Sorry, as much as management loves to use our enjoyment of our line of work against us. . .I'm not down with playing that game.

I have some very strict professional goals that must be met at various benchmark points. If the goals are not met, I re-evaluate my decision to continue in this profession.

Your buddy is clearly underpaid. The Memphis Fire Department hired my cousin and two of his buddies that each have an AAS in Fire Science with a paramedic certification(which most big cities won't hire without anymore) and they started each of them at $63,000.00/year. And at least their job is rewarding.

It's all relative.

I was with PSA for a year and had to leave because it was so hard on my family. The regionals are definitely for singles who don't mind crashpads and communting to reserve.

Consider this simple math for those of you thinking that you would like to have a family someday: If you get at least 15 days off per month (that's about half a month and is certainly no guarantee) and you work for 30 years, you will be spending 15 years away from home. That means you would have to wait until your child is 30 before you spend more time with him than away. How about your spouse; the one you chose to spend the rest of your life with...er, half of it at best.

This is a profession that forces a choice of priorities that few other professions do. This is not like being in Iraq or Afghanistan but, relative to other professions, it's close.

Very few other professions get away with requiring its employees to work 14 hours but only pay for five or six of those hours. Much of the work the flight crew, especially in regionals, does is in preparation for a flight and none of it is compensated by the company. Ask yourself if you like working for free, because you are. Sitting reserve and not flying but being "on call" is a poor substitute unless you fly a widebody and are living in base. Then reserve is good.

Guys like "Sully" help demonstrate to outsiders just how professional and well-trained we are, not just autopilot managers. He and his crew did a great job and its nice to have something to be proud of every now and then rather than having to explain why somebody tried to take off from the wrong runway or how two airplines got pushed into each other at Charlotte.

To answer the question, then: yes, you must love it more than anything else because you will have to sacrifice everything else to do it and much of the satisfaction you gain from it will be intrinsic. It won't come from anywhere else.

I already explained it but I’ll give it another go around. It’s really not that complicated. If you are a nurse and you’ve been practicing for let’s just say 7 years and you decide to move to another city or state to work for a different hospital, you can and should expect a salary that equals what you were previously making at your last place of employment before you left. The same should go for pilots. Once again, I agree that this idea is usually considered a fairy tale but this is one fairy tale that needs to come true! A national seniority list or a system like it is needed so a pilot who has been flying for 7 years can go to another company and expect to make what a 7 year FO at that company should be making; it’s the right thing to do!

Very eloquently stated.


In my case, 11 to 12 days off a month is the norm. If I'm lucky I get to fly home the same day I work and not on my day off. I get 1.5 to 2 days at home, but my wife works most of those days. If I'm lucky I get to see her 10 to 16 hours while I'm home. Then off again I go. Its not easy on a marriage, and not healthy. Healthy relationships require good lines of communication and intimacy - something you can't have over a cell phone.

It is definitely not like going to Iraq or Afghanistan. With those options you are gone a year to 18 months and then come back home. Most people won't spend years and years there. I'm not saying it isn't hell on those people, but its usually (and hopefully) a one time deal. Ours is a way of life, whether you live in base or not. If I could get daily's and live in base, it might be a good thing, but I can't and don't and probably won't.

The other downside is not being able to be involved in many things. Sure you know your schedule for the entire month, but you usually don't know month to month what your schedule will be. Say you want to take part in a play, or join a group, or do anything that requires a semi-regular schedule - good luck, because you really can't do it. It is great for those who are single, don't mind being away, don't have children, don't want to be involved in certain things, etc. For those of us with spouses, families, etc. it is a poor career choice. Loving it won't make up for missing out on this stuff. Loving it won't make up for missing your child's first steps, not being there if your parent gets ill, missing Christmas for the 12th time, waking up next to your spouse every morning and having coffee together.

I think the airlines should take a more proactive approach to providing us with better schedules. If you look at Flybe in the UK, they attempt to have all their pilots back to base every night (weather and other delays notwithstanding). This would make the job much easier and it could be done. Whether or not they would be interested in doing it is another story. It would definitely be a perk.

Of course this idea sounds great in theory, but its practical implementation is fraught with obstacles:

1. How do you get airline managements to buy into this idea, within the constraints of the RLA?

2. How do you ensure airline management doesn't discriminate during the review/hiring process against pilot applicants with more longevity, and therefore would be making higher pay?

3. Would seniority and longevity be transportable, or just longevity for pay purposes?

4. What would determine the date at which your longevity begins...DOH, date of ATP, etc?

5. Would a military pilot with a 10 year military flying career come in at the very bottom, or would they receive longevity credit for their non-airline experience? Same question for charter and corporate pilots.

NSL is sorta like communism - looks great on paper but a PITA in reality.

Life is short. Do what makes you happy and have no regrets. I like flying. I will never be rich, but I'm happy enough to continue flying for a living.

heres the Deal as my Monkey Brothern states above life is short, its is meant to be lived not to be resented. I LOVE the job, I hate the BS that comes with it and the 1st year pay and the furloughs but I LOVE the Job and the people who have become family. As chessey as it sounds the guys/gals we all fly with become best friends for life as this is such a small industry.

The best advice I can give is don't commute. I live in EWR and I was able to show $51,000.00 in 2008 with a pay rate of just $34.46 and hour...

Remember though, we should all work to live, not live to work..........(I know I know I should take my own advice)

Happy
 

It makes me happy to fly a 737 from the left seat up and down the west coast a couple time a month while making 250K, but so far I haven't got that job yet. Should I continue go through a lot that makes me unhappy in the hope that eventually I will got to do what makes me happy, or should I only do what makes me happy at the moment and forget about the future? :confused: I mean what if I never get the dream job?

What if I were happy as a young and single pilot however when I got older and I wanted a family, to buy a house or to build a retirement? How could I remain happy if I did not have the stability or income to support my future? Leaving the profession after so much of an investment couldn't be a very happy prospect.

Should we take steps today that might better insure the happiness of tomorrow or let the future take care of itself? What if we end up someplace that we are very much not happy about?

It seems difficult to be able to be happy all the time. This happy business is messy.

Skyhigh