|
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Thats the question that has haunted me for some time. Is loving “it” enough? It has, over time, become more and more clear that this industry isn't in a recession bound to bounce back with time like the rest of the economy. Its not cyclical, its in a down ward spiral, It has changed forever. It used to be that you could make a good living by most standards and have a reasonable to good quality of life with the airlines as a pilot or even a flight attendant. You would never be “rich” but would live a decent life. But as we see it and have seen it for the past 10 years, those days are long gone. Now its shady seedy motels and first year pay at a regional for the 3rd time for most of us. For someone who is been beating this horse for 5 to 7 years, its becoming harder and harder to persuade myself to continue down this path for the later and better years to come. Seems to me they wont be better if there will be there at all in the absence of a furlough or what might go along the lines of ATA, Aloha, or even Midwest. Ya its true that we love the job. But I think the issue of “loving” what you do has and should always take backseat to security and quality of life outside of work first. What good is it that I “love” what I do but I cant be home for my kids and wife? or cant be there for their graduation or birthdays? And worst of all can’t justify my absence, if at all possible, with at least some financial security. I might as well be home and broke... There used to be a pension, no more. There used to be QAL at least past the “paying your dues” years. The “paying your dues” are now every year even for the double digit seniority numbered guys. The quality of life they have is better then mine but I sure would expect more after so many years of service. The pay... even if one stayed long enough to retire from the industry today, chances are the average mean income of their career ( total of income throughout the years of service divided by years of service) will come to a number that most likely is shocking and at best not very impressive. This is to leave you with nothing more then a few stories in the autumn of your years. I find it hard to convince myself to go on doing it... and I dont buy the argument of “what else can I do?!” First you have to decide you want out and then worry about what you will do next. If you need out, if you want out, there will be an out and most likely one that will surprise you. What keeps you guys going, and I mean truly hopeful, not looking at false hope or through rose colored glasses? Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there? Keep in mind when you answer that, in this business: Your experience means NOTHING Your dedication means NOTHING Even if your “Sully” the Hudson Savior you are NOTHING but a number that restarts every time the company can convince a bankruptcy judge they dont have enough money to repaint the planes. Share you thoughts Dont start a fight in the thread, at least not in the first few pages. :) Thanks. |
This job isnt for everyone. I personally like having 15 days off each month, flight benefits to fly around the world and the ability to meet new people every day.
Pro's and Con's to it all but that is just it, it's not for everyone. |
What you wrote, while true, could apply to any number of professions right now.
I'm curious - what job you would pursue that would offer all the things you want? |
He would be the guy who works minimum wage, and wins the lottery when he is 47.
That would be the best job. |
Do you love the job, the entire package, or just the flying part?
For me, I love the flying...but I dislike everything before push back and after arrival. I can do without all the politics, problems, low pay, seedy hotels, starting over every time you change jobs, etc. I don't think loving it is enough, but I'm not truly convinced you love it. You see it for what it is. It has changed over the years, but there are some fundamentals. I read Ernest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" - he started flying for American in the 1930's...and the way he described it from ground school to IOE to flying the line all sound like he did it yesterday! The one thing that frightens me about the job outlook for this industry is the difficulty of getting on with the majors. When is the last time they hired in any big number? The regionals are looking like a dead end job. |
Despite the "down turn" the FAA is still forecasting by 2025 that air traffic will double. NextGen Implementation Plan
I suppose it would be safe to say that by 2025 that the FAA is forecasting a need to double the pilots?? I'll take all that with a grain of salt. However, there has been a very steady increase in air traffic and it hasn't stalled. What this means for the state of this profession is still hard to determine. In my opinion, the only thing that will turn the state of this profession toward our favor is simply less people doing it. Supply and demand. The demand for air travel will increase. A lack of supply would help to turn pay and QoL higher. Even with that said, something very fundamental will have to change with flight training to meet the demand that the FAA implies will be needed by 2025. The current system relies less on military pilots and more on civilian trained pilots. These students are investing way too much money into a profession that currently promises much less in return. The price is increasing while the expected return is decreasing. Maybe the entire industry will create a system of more streamlined training where the companies that need pilots train them from zero to minimum needed? I don't know. But it certainly seems like there is going to be a supply problem to meet the demand. The best you can do to help turn this industry around is to get out. |
also lets not forget, that as soon as age 65 people starting leaving there are mass numbers of retirements in the next 10 years. I saw a site that had the numbers for some of the majors and it was mind blowing how many people will be leaving.
|
Crummy Situation
It is terrible when a dream fails to meet it expectations. Either you can stay with flying in hopes that you will beat the odds or you can find the strength to turn your back on it to seek a better way of life.
Skyhigh |
Pilot Shortage?
Originally Posted by flyboyzz1
(Post 545454)
also lets not forget, that as soon as age 65 people starting leaving there are mass numbers of retirements in the next 10 years. I saw a site that had the numbers for some of the majors and it was mind blowing how many people will be leaving.
There might be a surge of retirements however the new jobs are being created in the regional and LCC's and not in the better paying legacy airlines. Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by CosmoKramer
(Post 545295)
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Thats the question that has haunted me for some time. Is loving “it” enough? It has, over time, become more and more clear that this industry isn't in a recession bound to bounce back with time like the rest of the economy. Its not cyclical, its in a down ward spiral, It has changed forever. It used to be that you could make a good living by most standards and have a reasonable to good quality of life with the airlines as a pilot or even a flight attendant. You would never be “rich” but would live a decent life. But as we see it and have seen it for the past 10 years, those days are long gone. Now its shady seedy motels and first year pay at a regional for the 3rd time for most of us. For someone who is been beating this horse for 5 to 7 years, its becoming harder and harder to persuade myself to continue down this path for the later and better years to come. Seems to me they wont be better if there will be there at all in the absence of a furlough or what might go along the lines of ATA, Aloha, or even Midwest. Ya its true that we love the job. But I think the issue of “loving” what you do has and should always take backseat to security and quality of life outside of work first. What good is it that I “love” what I do but I cant be home for my kids and wife? or cant be there for their graduation or birthdays? And worst of all can’t justify my absence, if at all possible, with at least some financial security. I might as well be home and broke... There used to be a pension, no more. There used to be QAL at least past the “paying your dues” years. The “paying your dues” are now every year even for the double digit seniority numbered guys. The quality of life they have is better then mine but I sure would expect more after so many years of service. The pay... even if one stayed long enough to retire from the industry today, chances are the average mean income of their career ( total of income throughout the years of service divided by years of service) will come to a number that most likely is shocking and at best not very impressive. This is to leave you with nothing more then a few stories in the autumn of your years. I find it hard to convince myself to go on doing it... and I dont buy the argument of “what else can I do?!” First you have to decide you want out and then worry about what you will do next. If you need out, if you want out, there will be an out and most likely one that will surprise you. What keeps you guys going, and I mean truly hopeful, not looking at false hope or through rose colored glasses? Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there? Keep in mind when you answer that, in this business: Your experience means NOTHING Your dedication means NOTHING Even if your “Sully” the Hudson Savior you are NOTHING but a number that restarts every time the company can convince a bankruptcy judge they dont have enough money to repaint the planes. Share you thoughts Dont start a fight in the thread, at least not in the first few pages. :) Thanks. Man, you're getting too deep. Somebody take away that Kierkergard book he's reading. :D I'd tell you my philosophy about most things in life. Jim Croce once said "if you dig it, do it. If you really dig it, do it twice". Just plain as that. Don't let the bean counters and the crappy mgmt team take away from something you enjoy. |
I'm living what you're saying Cosmo.
I flew for Aloha. Had a nice, cush job, was about to upgrade when it all came down crashing. Time to start over... Got hired by Mesaba only to have the class cancelled because of Delta shuffling aircraft. This is not to mention that the first year pay would be literally equivalent TO A DOLLAR to my unemployment check. Fortunately, I just got hired by an international corporate operator to crew a brand new large cabin jet, and the pay will be significantly more appropriate for my hours and experience. Look... seniority concept is wrong and evil, especially when it comes to pay. I spoke with many of Aloha senior pilots well before Aloha collapse, and while some said... yeah NATIONAL SENIORITY LIST (which is a pipe dream), they were perfectly fine with first year pay being dismal. When I'd ask them if they thought their skill was worth $25/hour should Aloha go out of business? I got blank stares, shrugs and "well, that's the way it is." I guess I don't jive with that mentality... and that's why I think business aviation is the way to go - if the worst happens and your department shuts down and you were a Global Express or G-550 captain making a nice 6 figure salary, you don't have to go back to right seat in a King Air 200 flying for 22k a year if you want to remain in aviation simply because seniority system mandates it. You can pursue jobs flying Globals and Gulfstreams, or others... and your pay will be what you negotiate, but I can guarantee you it'll be way more appropriate than a regional airline pilot pay. There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore. |
The love for flying and being an airline pilot are two totally different things and most of the time, they don't go together.
|
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
(Post 545482)
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
|
I must love "it". Last year I was furloughed twice in 6 months, and am now working as a ramper part time. I still am dying to get back to the grind of flying the line again. I'd compare the feeling to that of a battered housewife that keeps going back to the man that beats her. It may be a very dysfunctional relationship, but I'll still go back.
|
Originally Posted by CosmoKramer
(Post 545295)
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Thats the question that has haunted me for some time. Is loving “it” enough? It has, over time, become more and more clear that this industry isn't in a recession bound to bounce back with time like the rest of the economy. Its not cyclical, its in a down ward spiral, It has changed forever. It used to be that you could make a good living by most standards and have a reasonable to good quality of life with the airlines as a pilot or even a flight attendant. You would never be “rich” but would live a decent life. But as we see it and have seen it for the past 10 years, those days are long gone. Now its shady seedy motels and first year pay at a regional for the 3rd time for most of us. For someone who is been beating this horse for 5 to 7 years, its becoming harder and harder to persuade myself to continue down this path for the later and better years to come. Seems to me they wont be better if there will be there at all in the absence of a furlough or what might go along the lines of ATA, Aloha, or even Midwest. Ya its true that we love the job. But I think the issue of “loving” what you do has and should always take backseat to security and quality of life outside of work first. What good is it that I “love” what I do but I cant be home for my kids and wife? or cant be there for their graduation or birthdays? And worst of all can’t justify my absence, if at all possible, with at least some financial security. I might as well be home and broke... There used to be a pension, no more. There used to be QAL at least past the “paying your dues” years. The “paying your dues” are now every year even for the double digit seniority numbered guys. The quality of life they have is better then mine but I sure would expect more after so many years of service. The pay... even if one stayed long enough to retire from the industry today, chances are the average mean income of their career ( total of income throughout the years of service divided by years of service) will come to a number that most likely is shocking and at best not very impressive. This is to leave you with nothing more then a few stories in the autumn of your years. I find it hard to convince myself to go on doing it... and I dont buy the argument of “what else can I do?!” First you have to decide you want out and then worry about what you will do next. If you need out, if you want out, there will be an out and most likely one that will surprise you. What keeps you guys going, and I mean truly hopeful, not looking at false hope or through rose colored glasses? Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there? Keep in mind when you answer that, in this business: Your experience means NOTHING Your dedication means NOTHING Even if your “Sully” the Hudson Savior you are NOTHING but a number that restarts every time the company can convince a bankruptcy judge they dont have enough money to repaint the planes. Share you thoughts Dont start a fight in the thread, at least not in the first few pages. :) Thanks. |
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
(Post 545482)
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
Just a nostalgic moment, but I miss taking off with full tanks in a 172 and enjoying a nice flight up the California coast. No MELs, no PMSing FAs, no lines of convective activity, no mentally retarded TSA agents... ahh, the good 'ole days! :D At least the flight bennies are nice though. |
Originally Posted by rickB
(Post 545488)
This job is the bomb diggity!
|
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilot
(Post 545427)
Do you love the job, the entire package, or just the flying part?
For me, I love the flying...but I dislike everything before push back and after arrival. I can do without all the politics, problems, low pay, seedy hotels, starting over every time you change jobs, etc. I don't think loving it is enough, but I'm not truly convinced you love it. You see it for what it is. It has changed over the years, but there are some fundamentals. I read Ernest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" - he started flying for American in the 1930's...and the way he described it from ground school to IOE to flying the line all sound like he did it yesterday! The one thing that frightens me about the job outlook for this industry is the difficulty of getting on with the majors. When is the last time they hired in any big number? The regionals are looking like a dead end job. The notion that someone is not true to their profession because they seek financial rewards is not true. You can't pay the bills by looking outside your window as you break out of a cloud deck. It's still very cool.... but that's not going to get anything done. Even though you're flying a jet, you're still making less than some low level government workers and janitors. And once you make it to CA, you can have a little more just to call you're self a middle class "white" collar worker, who hasn't been home for most of the month. I tell people to seriously reconsider flying pro because it is not what it used to be and most likely never will be. |
Its important for one to enjoy their job...but simply enjoying one's job doesn't pay the mortgage.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment. Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3 When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when. |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 545587)
Its important for one to enjoy their job...but simply enjoying one's job doesn't pay the mortgage.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment. Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3 When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when. |
This is probably one of the most depressing threads ever, they should put that first post on a brochure and hand them out to potential flight school students. Unfortunately most of the points that have been made are completly true. This career in my opinion is complete luck, I guess were all a bunch of gamblers.
|
Originally Posted by rickB
(Post 545488)
You don't like it and complain so much then quit. This is the coolest job in the world I went to Shanghai China for $14 round trip. I don't think I have met a single 21 year old who can say he has done the same besides another pilot. This job is the bomb diggity! I am sick of hearing people come on this forum and cry and moan about every little thing some people need to suck it up and grow a pair.
Chalk it up to the unbridled optimism of youth. I would've been right there with you 11 years ago. Family, life, economic concerns all wear on a person, and soon, very soon, reality sets in and overtakes optimism and replaces it with realism. |
Originally Posted by Purpleanga
(Post 545554)
The notion that someone is not true to their profession because they seek financial rewards is not true. You can't pay the bills by looking outside your window as you break out of a cloud deck. It's still very cool.... but that's not going to get anything done. Even though you're flying a jet, you're still making less than some low level government workers and janitors. And once you make it to CA, you can have a little more just to call you're self a middle class "white" collar worker, who hasn't been home for most of the month. I tell people to seriously reconsider flying pro because it is not what it used to be and most likely never will be.
A very good post though - a middle class white collar worker who hasn't been home for most the month just about sums it up completely! |
Originally Posted by arizonastpilot
(Post 545591)
This is probably one of the most depressing threads ever, they should put that first post on a brochure and hand them out to potential flight school students. Unfortunately most of the points that have been made are completly true. This career in my opinion is complete luck, I guess were all a bunch of gamblers.
|
Originally Posted by arizonastpilot
(Post 545591)
This is probably one of the most depressing threads ever, they should put that first post on a brochure and hand them out to potential flight school students. Unfortunately most of the points that have been made are completly true. This career in my opinion is complete luck, I guess were all a bunch of gamblers.
|
duplicate post
|
What does "loving it" mean, exactly?
It seems to me that there are a LOT of pilots who have spent a full career working for the major airlines (that cosmoKramer describes as his dream job in the initial post)...who are bitter and cynical...and who make a lot of money. What gives you satisfaction as a pilot? For a while, it is the allure of the bigger shinier airplane. Trade up from the 152 that you trained in, and the 182 seems like a ton of fun...for a while. Trade that up to a seminole and it once again seems awesome for a while until you start yearning for something bigger and better. The baron or king air that you get to fly while "time building" seems to be awesome until you again get the itch for something bigger and faster. Thus the baron becomes an RJ, which will eventually turn into a narrowbody, and finally a widebody. What happens then? Payscales follow a similar scale. It is human nature so yearn for the next big raise, and then upon getting it, to want the next bigger one. Read the major forums on this site and you will of read pilots wanting more. Talk to just about anyone in eany industry and they will tell you that they are underpaid, and that <fill in the bank> other profession has things so much better. While i'm not denying that the QOL of a regional FO or flight instructor has a lot to be desired I'm just saying that every pilot (or any career for that matter) must define for themselves what "loving it" means FOR THEM? If salary and QOL is more important to you than flying, and you have a better chance of getting what you want (salary and QOL) outside aviation...then the choise seems clear to me. |
Originally Posted by wwings
(Post 545633)
If salary and QOL is more important to you than flying, and you have a better chance of getting what you want (salary and QOL) outside aviation...then the choise seems clear to me. |
Originally Posted by Purpleanga
(Post 545635)
Yep, yep. The problem is that this job should not become on par with driving a city bus. Have some dignity.
Or get out of aviation and make money in some other "dignified" ocupation. |
Originally Posted by wwings
(Post 545641)
make some other flight job...Frax...coporate...international...your goal.
|
My best friend is a full time fireman (he has an aas in fire science). His wife is a teacher with a masters degree. I make what they make combined and I am a 5th year Captain. I work 83 per month 15 average per month.
Do we deserve more...absolutly. But keep it in perspective. I love my job. I like my lifestyle. I miss my family when I am gone, but when I get home I understand what I missed. Most people cannot say that. I will help fight for this industry to imporove, cuz thats what we deserve. |
being on reserve really sucks the life out of me...i can't stand commuting to NY just so i can sit ready-reserve at the airport for a week without flying once...you begin to wonder what the point of you're job is anymore...i pick up open time on my days off at least once a month to make ends meet. you do this once or twice and you find you're never home...the Mrs. is at home alone while i'm what? hours away doing what? sitting by a phone?
that's how i see it from a reserve stand point... |
Originally Posted by withthatsaid182
(Post 545837)
being on reserve really sucks the life out of me...i can't stand commuting to NY just so i can sit ready-reserve at the airport for a week without flying once...you begin to wonder what the point of you're job is anymore...i pick up open time on my days off at least once a month to make ends meet. you do this once or twice and you find you're never home...the Mrs. is at home alone while i'm what? hours away doing what? sitting by a phone?
that's how i see it from a reserve stand point... I'm sorry you didn't research your career choice better. You should be happy you are busting your ass doing manual labor, or pushing papers behind a desk. Everyone has to start somewhere, Rockstar. |
I thoroughly understand this thread and ones nature to question his or her commitment. I too have been wrestling with this concept for months now. I loving flying, I’m good at it, and it’s never felt like work, not once. But at what price? I’m in the second half of my twenties and I watch my childhood friends (the ones that chose more conventional paths) start to break the six figure mark, get married, perhaps even have kids. For me it seems like a never ending series of middle seats, ipods, airport food, and unfamiliar beds. Years away from a true living, lost relationships mounting, and the gap between today and my dream job widening… is it really worth it? The question that scares me the most is the one I never saw coming.
|
Originally Posted by CAPTAIN INSANO
(Post 545857)
I'm sorry you didn't research your career choice better. You should be happy you are busting your ass doing manual labor, or pushing papers behind a desk. Everyone has to start somewhere, Rockstar.
|
"I watch my childhood friends (the ones that chose more conventional paths) start to break the six "figure mark"..."
Not sure how easy it would be to "join your friends", but, more power to you if you go that route and walk away from the career. I'd only ask that you tell the story of how you got to that six figure job in the "leaving the career" forum. Personally, I'm guessing, in today's climate, it's not so easy to just walk into a six figure job outside of flying. |
Originally Posted by CAPTAIN INSANO
(Post 545857)
I'm sorry you didn't research your career choice better. You should be happy you are busting your ass doing manual labor, or pushing papers behind a desk. Everyone has to start somewhere, Rockstar.
Im glad to see you dont find this career and climate as uncooperative as some others and I would really like to know how it may be different for you or how you deal with a bad situation better then the rest of us, but please dont attack or judge someone you dont know. Share you experience, advice, and thoughts, leave the rest to Management. |
Originally Posted by de727ups
(Post 545913)
"I watch my childhood friends (the ones that chose more conventional paths) start to break the six "figure mark"..."
Not sure how easy it would be to "join your friends", but, more power to you if you go that route and walk away from the career. I'd only ask that you tell the story of how you got to that six figure job in the "leaving the career" forum. Personally, I'm guessing, in today's climate, it's not so easy to just walk into a six figure job outside of flying. |
"Can't wait for all the vietnam era retirements then things will turnaround." :rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:
|
Originally Posted by rickB
(Post 545488)
You don't like it and complain so much then quit. This is the coolest job in the world I went to Shanghai China for $14 round trip. I don't think I have met a single 21 year old who can say he has done the same besides another pilot. This job is the bomb diggity! I am sick of hearing people come on this forum and cry and moan about every little thing some people need to suck it up and grow a pair.
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:03 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands