Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
01-26-2009, 06:38 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by withthatsaid182
being on reserve really sucks the life out of me...i can't stand commuting to NY just so i can sit ready-reserve at the airport for a week without flying once...you begin to wonder what the point of you're job is anymore...i pick up open time on my days off at least once a month to make ends meet. you do this once or twice and you find you're never home...the Mrs. is at home alone while i'm what? hours away doing what? sitting by a phone?
that's how i see it from a reserve stand point...
that's how i see it from a reserve stand point...
Originally Posted by CAPTAIN INSANO
I'm sorry you didn't research your career choice better. You should be happy you are busting your ass doing manual labor, or pushing papers behind a desk. Everyone has to start somewhere, Rockstar.
Originally Posted by tzadik
Watch yourself chief… recent scheduling cutbacks and base reductions have seen me go from 39 in base to 83. After a year of holding a line I find myself sitting reserve hundreds of miles away from where I live. Every other phone call is some guy that’s just this side of retarded trying to assign me yet another airport appreciation shift until 3am when the last flight leaves at ten. I spend hundreds of dollars on hotels, deadhead more than I fly, and pick up trips off the trade board on my days off to finance this glorious lifestyle. I’m well aware of the paying your dues concept, it’s become my existence. Don’t you dare go criticizing me or anyone else for voicing their feelings.
The point Capt Insano choses to overlook is that things change. Nobody expects to be on reserve for a year or more, such a thing wasn't foreseeable. So we could research all we want and not get a true picture. Research up until a year ago would have shown sunshine, roses and fluffly little kittens...but that isn't what many of us have now. We're stuck with a turd sandwich and trying to eat it as best we can.
I just want to add:
'Paying dues' is such a stupid phrase and signifies nothing. You can't quantify it. It's worthless. How does one define 'paying one's dues'? Spending 2 years on reserve? Having 3,000 hrs? Flying cargo planes full of rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong? I think we've all 'paid our dues' by getting our certificates and becoming airline pilots. Some people get an easy road and some get a hard road, but in some form, we have all paid our dues.
01-26-2009, 06:47 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: CRJ-200 Furlough
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilot
I feel your pain. Ready reserve in Puerto Rico was the pits. I have more time in the jumpseat of a 757 then I do flying the ATR. When I computed my take-home pay after cost of travel, crash pad, car, food, etc I ended up with the figure of about $6.50 an hour for each hour I sat and flew the recliner. Always away from my wife, friends and family. I began to feel very disconnected from everyone.
Shame of you. Bad form.
When I was hired at AE, we were told we would sit reserve for a month at the most...then hiring stopped. The result, a lot of people around my seniority number sitting reserve (the only line holders we've had have been TDY)...without a choice.
The point Capt Insano choses to overlook is that things change. Nobody expects to be on reserve for a year or more, such a thing wasn't foreseeable. So we could research all we want and not get a true picture. Research up until a year ago would have shown sunshine, roses and fluffly little kittens...but that isn't what many of us have now. We're stuck with a turd sandwich and trying to eat it as best we can.
I just want to add:
'Paying dues' is such a stupid phrase and signifies nothing. You can't quantify it. It's worthless. How does one define 'paying one's dues'? Spending 2 years on reserve? Having 3,000 hrs? Flying cargo planes full of rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong? I think we've all 'paid our dues' by getting our certificates and becoming airline pilots. Some people get an easy road and some get a hard road, but in some form, we have all paid our dues.
Shame of you. Bad form.
When I was hired at AE, we were told we would sit reserve for a month at the most...then hiring stopped. The result, a lot of people around my seniority number sitting reserve (the only line holders we've had have been TDY)...without a choice.
The point Capt Insano choses to overlook is that things change. Nobody expects to be on reserve for a year or more, such a thing wasn't foreseeable. So we could research all we want and not get a true picture. Research up until a year ago would have shown sunshine, roses and fluffly little kittens...but that isn't what many of us have now. We're stuck with a turd sandwich and trying to eat it as best we can.
I just want to add:
'Paying dues' is such a stupid phrase and signifies nothing. You can't quantify it. It's worthless. How does one define 'paying one's dues'? Spending 2 years on reserve? Having 3,000 hrs? Flying cargo planes full of rubber dog crap out of Hong Kong? I think we've all 'paid our dues' by getting our certificates and becoming airline pilots. Some people get an easy road and some get a hard road, but in some form, we have all paid our dues.
01-26-2009, 06:59 PM
#43
18 Day Gear Monkey
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Phenom Gear Jockey
Posts: 171
Pontius said it very well, we have all paid our dues in one form or another. Some guys in my class had 200 hours, other and my self had closer to 2000. We all had to do different things and fly different airplanes to get where we are, a few just had to sign a large loan. Bottom line is that we are all in this slump right now and it sucks, plain and simple.
I have 2 years in at Uncle Huli's flying circus and I am back on reserve out in Dulles until my inevitable furlough as our fleet will literally be half of what it was May of last year. 2 leg commute to IAD with 10 days off, having to commute on those days off, a wife at home with a baby on the way. I'm sorry, I don't see the beauty in this line of work right now. Am I going to quit flying, no. Am I going to quit TSA, you betcha. Being an "airline pilot" is not worth the damn headache. To thowse of you who stick it out in the airlines, my hat's off to you. For those of you that bail for a better career, good for you and best of luck.
This thread was started so we could pretty much gripe about our plight as airline pilots. No need to flame anyone for expressing their opinions. We cna't all be fortunate enough to be at a better airline in the left seat holding a line, some of us are on reserve at TSA.
I have 2 years in at Uncle Huli's flying circus and I am back on reserve out in Dulles until my inevitable furlough as our fleet will literally be half of what it was May of last year. 2 leg commute to IAD with 10 days off, having to commute on those days off, a wife at home with a baby on the way. I'm sorry, I don't see the beauty in this line of work right now. Am I going to quit flying, no. Am I going to quit TSA, you betcha. Being an "airline pilot" is not worth the damn headache. To thowse of you who stick it out in the airlines, my hat's off to you. For those of you that bail for a better career, good for you and best of luck.
This thread was started so we could pretty much gripe about our plight as airline pilots. No need to flame anyone for expressing their opinions. We cna't all be fortunate enough to be at a better airline in the left seat holding a line, some of us are on reserve at TSA.
01-26-2009, 07:08 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by andy171773
I can't even get a job at mcdonalds
(im asking because im hoping to get a second job in the dining sector.)
Last edited by kalyx522; 01-26-2009 at 08:34 PM.
01-26-2009, 07:12 PM
#46
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 49
Grow a pair... Really... This kinda talk is embarassing.
I think the biggest difference between the times of old and new is the attitude of the people. Lately all I hear from new hires is what they deserve, and what they don't have (A airline pilot job with only 250 hours. What more could you want?). 25-30 year ago if something needed to be changed the employees came together, volunteered time with their unions, ensured everyone was on the same side, and fought for it. Picket line crossers were beat up behind buildings, and some pilots even sacrificed their jobs for months and even years standing up for what the believed the pilot group deserved (Most of the rules in the contracts you are flying under today). The point being, get out of this forum and put your energy into making change. The airlines have used these difficult times to make us believe we need them, when in fact, if they want to stay in business, they need us. (*rant* The next problem is 200-300 hour pilots who can't wait to sit in the right seat of a turbo-prop for the same wage as a manager at McD's.) Anyway whining on here makes us look weak, and is contributing to the lowering morale.
Sorry for the rant but hopefully you can understand my point...
Sorry for the rant but hopefully you can understand my point...
01-26-2009, 08:45 PM
#47
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
I have to say that not to my surprise whilst the topic is grim, this thread has turned out to be a very informative and in some odd way positive one.
First and foremost, I am happy to see that even though we all love this industry there is still a sense of integrity amongst us that allows for a critical point of view. Things can always be worse and can always be better. The question is where do we sit in comparison to where we want to or need to be industrywide.
As someone earlier mentioned, it is great to be 21 years old and have the ability to jett-set around the world. However, this will not sustain the goals of most in the long run if you plan on developing past that particular stage of life into a more developed, conventional, and responsible form that the majority of people evolve into.
Not to say that if you dont make that transition there is something wrong with you, but its to say that most will make that transition and since we entered this profession for reasons other then a seasonal gig we need this to sustain our lifestyle and goals through all stage of life and not just puberty. Otherwise its nothing more than the equivalent of working at the ice cream shop during your summers while off from junior high for all the free ice cream you can eat.
After reading all of the posts in this thread, and they are many considering how long it has been (24 hours), I think the general idea is that the industry is broken. Its not what most of us expect out of this career and its not what we would want for our future or for any more time frankly speaking.
We are, unlike the common misconception of our customers, overworked and underpaid by a great deal. I cannot think of any time that I have explained my daily schedule and routine to a person unfamiliar with this industry and ended my rant by telling them how much or how little money I make without them in complete shock. I do believe that most of you out there have shared the same experience in one form or another.
I have been thinking about this issue for a long time and have been asking many of their opinion. The young, the old, the new, and the veteran have all pitched in their thoughts and its been interesting.
The question is why and how did it get so bad?
Im not so much interested as to who is to blame, so please, dont take this opportunity to say what is the easiest or what is been beaten into our heads by self interested parties. Lets think thoughtfully and critically and figure this out collectively regardless of our biases.
This forum affords us an opportunity that is rare in the outside world. It affords us the anonymity of internet which allows us to break away from old hard set political views and biases and brings us the ability to critically and collectively identify the problem, formulate a solution, and create a path between the two.
Share you thoughts and ideas.
I only ask of two thing:
1. Do not fight, patronize, ridicule, or any of above. Its not productive and it ruins the spirit of the discussion.
2. Provide details of your thoughts and solutions. Tell us not only what you think but also why.
I am looking forward to your thoughts.
Cosmo
First and foremost, I am happy to see that even though we all love this industry there is still a sense of integrity amongst us that allows for a critical point of view. Things can always be worse and can always be better. The question is where do we sit in comparison to where we want to or need to be industrywide.
As someone earlier mentioned, it is great to be 21 years old and have the ability to jett-set around the world. However, this will not sustain the goals of most in the long run if you plan on developing past that particular stage of life into a more developed, conventional, and responsible form that the majority of people evolve into.
Not to say that if you dont make that transition there is something wrong with you, but its to say that most will make that transition and since we entered this profession for reasons other then a seasonal gig we need this to sustain our lifestyle and goals through all stage of life and not just puberty. Otherwise its nothing more than the equivalent of working at the ice cream shop during your summers while off from junior high for all the free ice cream you can eat.
After reading all of the posts in this thread, and they are many considering how long it has been (24 hours), I think the general idea is that the industry is broken. Its not what most of us expect out of this career and its not what we would want for our future or for any more time frankly speaking.
We are, unlike the common misconception of our customers, overworked and underpaid by a great deal. I cannot think of any time that I have explained my daily schedule and routine to a person unfamiliar with this industry and ended my rant by telling them how much or how little money I make without them in complete shock. I do believe that most of you out there have shared the same experience in one form or another.
I have been thinking about this issue for a long time and have been asking many of their opinion. The young, the old, the new, and the veteran have all pitched in their thoughts and its been interesting.
The question is why and how did it get so bad?
Im not so much interested as to who is to blame, so please, dont take this opportunity to say what is the easiest or what is been beaten into our heads by self interested parties. Lets think thoughtfully and critically and figure this out collectively regardless of our biases.
This forum affords us an opportunity that is rare in the outside world. It affords us the anonymity of internet which allows us to break away from old hard set political views and biases and brings us the ability to critically and collectively identify the problem, formulate a solution, and create a path between the two.
Share you thoughts and ideas.
I only ask of two thing:
1. Do not fight, patronize, ridicule, or any of above. Its not productive and it ruins the spirit of the discussion.
2. Provide details of your thoughts and solutions. Tell us not only what you think but also why.
I am looking forward to your thoughts.
Cosmo
01-26-2009, 09:18 PM
#48
Stethoscope
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 308
3 words, National Seniority List! As long as this stays out of reach and is considered a “pipe dream,” pilots will always get screwed period!
Furloughs or layoffs would be just a little bearable if you could expect a starting salary that equates your experience in professional flying. I think a National Seniority List would be hard as hell to do but nothing is impossible! And until a list or a system like that comes about, we will continue to see threads like this for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!!
Furloughs or layoffs would be just a little bearable if you could expect a starting salary that equates your experience in professional flying. I think a National Seniority List would be hard as hell to do but nothing is impossible! And until a list or a system like that comes about, we will continue to see threads like this for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!!
01-26-2009, 09:25 PM
#49
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by cargo hopeful
3 words, National Seniority List! As long as this stays out of reach and is considered a “pipe dream,” pilots will always get screwed period!
Furloughs or layoffs would be just a little bearable if you could expect a starting salary that equates your experience in professional flying. I think a National Seniority List would be hard as hell to do but nothing is impossible! And until a list or a system like that comes about, we will continue to see threads like this for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!!
Furloughs or layoffs would be just a little bearable if you could expect a starting salary that equates your experience in professional flying. I think a National Seniority List would be hard as hell to do but nothing is impossible! And until a list or a system like that comes about, we will continue to see threads like this for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!!
Could you go in a bid more detail as to why you like the idea of a National Seniority List and what you think might be its benefits and shortfalls?
01-26-2009, 09:54 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 903
No, loving it is not enough.
This is a job, like any other. I'm not going to allow my emotional enjoyment of this job to erode any ability to improve my quality of life or pay. Sorry, as much as management loves to use our enjoyment of our line of work against us. . .I'm not down with playing that game.
I have some very strict professional goals that must be met at various benchmark points. If the goals are not met, I re-evaluate my decision to continue in this profession.
This is a job, like any other. I'm not going to allow my emotional enjoyment of this job to erode any ability to improve my quality of life or pay. Sorry, as much as management loves to use our enjoyment of our line of work against us. . .I'm not down with playing that game.
I have some very strict professional goals that must be met at various benchmark points. If the goals are not met, I re-evaluate my decision to continue in this profession.
