Regional airline academy or delta connection
 

I'm planing on starting flight training when I get out of the army at the end of the year and trying to find out some info about RAA and DCA.... are they worth the money they are asking for, or should I go some were small and build time?

Atp
 

check out ATPs.

www.allatps.com

I think you'll find them to be a better deal. A few people on here have gone thru them and a few currently CFI for them.

I've researched the subject and for my money I'll go thru ATP when I'm ready to move into aviation.

Good luck.

-LA

Ditto. Check out ATP.

ATP offers more of an a la carte training menu, if you will. Also, once you complete your PPL requirements, the rest of your training is done in a multi-engine a/c.

Hey ctd57, rickair7777 & ryane946 how 'bout some help here.:)

I would NOT recommend Delta Connection or RAA.

Flight safety is the best of all the major academies.
Costs are competitive, and in may cases, better than DCA, RAA, and American Flyers.

BIG advantage, you get to do your instrument in a multi. Remember you need 100hrs of multi to get a good airline job offer. If you get your CFI, and sign a contract to instruct for 800hrs (About 1 year), which you will probably need to do anyway, Flight Safety will pay for your CFII and MEI. No cost to you. Another HUGE advantage, since the instrument, commercial, and multi training is ALL done in a multi engine aircraft, most your time instructing will be multi time. It is not uncommon to see F.S. guys with 1000TT and like 500 multi!

No other flight academy even comes close to flight safety.

With that said, I think going to a local FBO is the best option. I would recommend you do your licenses and ratings at an FBO. It will save you at least $20,000 for the same training. At academies, you will pay $55 an hour for instruction. At an FBO you will pay about $35 an hour for instruction. The flip side, when you want to instruct to timebuild, academies will only pay you $14 an hour. The FBO will pay you $25-35 an hour. BIG DIFFERENCE! At academies, you will pay like $105 for an old cessna, while at an FBO you will pay $80-90 for an old cessna. At academies you will pay over $200 an hour for a multi, while those cost about $150 at an FBO. As crazy as these prices are, the place where these academies make their money is ground school. If you take the hours of ground school divided by the total cost, it works out to like $20 an hour for a class of 10-20 people. That's too much! American Flyers charges $80 an hour for classroom instruction, and they are proud of it. That is more than classes cost at Stanford or Yale!!!

That is why I recommend an FBO over an airline academy. It is much cheaper, you will make more money, and the training can be accomplished in the SAME amount of time.

Do your Private at a small or affordable part 61 school and then move on to a part 141 school after that to utilize your military benefits.

I will second the notion of staying away from RAA or DCA and looking into FSI. Wow, acronymn city...

Schedule a tour with them and ask about the veteran stuff. From what I hear from my former roomate at FSI (he was in the Marines) they go out of their way to accomidate former military guys.

Good luck!

I would recommend going to Flight Safety Academy. It also depends on how fast you want to do your training. I will discourage going to an FBO. In my opinion, I have been at one for 5 years, and it sux, and that it why I am going to an academy. No planes, no instructors, poor maintence, etc. And I have been to 3 FBO's!! Isn't the student/CFI/Aircraft ratio much better at most academies? Cause at FBO's it really blows!! Hey that rhymes.....

Not sure if you're an army helo pilot...I'll assume not...

Flight Safety is good but still expensive. You can get everything you need at a small school or FBO.

As a military guy, you need to be aware that you will need a 4-year degree to achieve a reasonable income level as a pilot. The GI Bill will pay some of your flight training, but you are probably better off using your VA benies for college. Unfortuntaely, most flight schools that accept VA students will adjust their VA pricing above normal prices. This means you pay about as much out-of-pocket as you would have without GI Bill, and the school pockets your GI benefits! Go to college (a state school) and do flight training on the side.

I'll summarize the usual path for civilian flight training, but first I would suggest that you attempt to get a fixed-wing military flying slot. You'll need the college degree, but as a former military member, you will have an advanatge getting in. This is the best path to a major airline job, because airlines prefer ex-military, your training is paid for, and you make good money while in the military. If you don't want to do active-duty military, you could get your civilian training then join the Air National Guard...numerous benefits there.

Civilian Training: What airlines want is ratings and flight experience. They don't care where you got them (unless it was in the military). You will need Private (PVT), Instrument (IR), Commercial(COM), Multi-engine(ME), Flight Instructor (CFI), Instrument Instructor (CFII), and Multi-engine Instructor (MEI). This should cost roughly $35K at your local airport or at most small/medium size schools. WARNING: There are numerous small-time scam artists and large "glossy-brochure" flight schools who will try to sell you on the idea that their training is "better" or that you need ADDITIONAL jet or airline operations training. They will usually want to charge you $60K-100k+ for their unnecessary crappola. Since the FAA sets and closely monitors training standards, most schools and instructors meet the requirements. You need to find one that will get your basic ratings done in a reasonable time (6-8 months full-time) and won't charge double what they should. Try to find a LOCAL school, every town has them...if you move across country and find yourself in a scam, it's hard to go back. Also any school that wants ALL of your money up front is a big red flag...walk away immediately. You will want to pay in installments of 1K or 2K max. Remember some of the biggest schools with the smoothest fast-talking salesmen are the biggest scams...the bigger the brochure, the bigger the lies.

Flight Instructor: Now that you have your ratings and 250-300 hours, you can get a job as a CFI, probably teaching PVT, COM, and IR students in single-engine airplanes. You will do this for 1-2 years until you 1000+ total time (TT). You will also need 100+ multi-engine time (ME)...you can get a job as an MEI or maybe just rent 100 hours worth of airplane time ($$$). CFIs and MEI's make $10K-30K/year

Night Cargo: Next step is flying overnight packages from small towns. You will start in small single-engine, single pilot airplanes that are often poorly maintained, and fly in night, weather, mountain, and probably icing conditions...if this sounds dangerous, that's because it is! You will usually do this for 6-18 months. Pay is $20-25K. If you have a degree and hiring is good you may be able to skip this step and go from CFI to regional airline.

Regional Airline. You will start out in a turbo-prop or small jet (Regional Jet or RJ) as first officer (FO). This will pay $15-20K at first. You will fly as an FO until your seniority allows you to upgrade to captain (2-12 years). Once you upgrade to captain you will be acquiring turbine (jet) Pilot-in-Command time (PIC), making $30K-70K. Turbine PIC is what the major airlines require in their candidates. How you got it doesn't matter as much as the fact that you have it. A this point you probably have 5000+ TT. An F-16 pilot with 1500 TT will have 1000+ PIC because he is always the PIC in an F-16.

Major Airline: Once you meet the minumum experience requirements, competetion is severe. Military pilots go to the head of the line here. In addition to your flying background, they will look at other "whole-person" factors as well. If you get a job at a major airline, life might be pretty good in the long run.


Notes: The estimated times at each job assume no catastrophic 9/11 like events. This would delay hiring for a period of time.

You will need an FAA First Class medical to be an airline pilot. Get one before you start training to make sure you qualify.

Get a PVT license first BEFORE you commit yourself to professional pilot training. Make sure you actually enjoy flying.

Expect to get furloughed at some point in your career...there are a lot of ups and downs in this industry.

Remember: Be wary of big-name "glossy brochure" flight schools that want to rip you off...anyone who says the airlines "prefer" their graduates is lying. Airlines prefer pilots who have appropriate ratings and flight experience. Visit any school before signing up, and talk to some instructors and students, not just the salesmen.

There are a FEW shortcuts to an airline job, but they are expensive and have potential negatives...do your research if you think you want to do a shortcut program.

"Remember: Be wary of big-name "glossy brochure" flight schools that want to rip you off...anyone who says the airlines "prefer" their graduates is lying"

Amen, although rather than say they are lying I'd say they just don't know any better.

I am doing the Delta connection academy, however its through Bridgewater state college which is a cheap school and i live close by so its the more cost effective route. Ive heard mixed reviews about the program and so far its not to bad, but im getting my degree and flight training at the same time.

Best of luck, and thanks for serving!

Seek out professional counseling:
 

Couple of things to consider:
1. Do you have the GI Bill? You can use that for either schooling or flight training beyond the PPL.
2. Are you going to be considered 20% disabled? If so, you have the capability to get additional training through the VA. The program is called the Vocational Rehabilitation Program. The VA will pay for several years of training for a vocation or for a college degree. If you have this you could possibly use VOCREHAB for the degree and the GI Bill for flight training. I dont know if it is possible to double dip so find your VA counselor.
Because you served you have more options than Joe Bagodonuts.
Believe PANAM also has training aimed at the converting mil helo guys. Dont know the details on it but you might want to give them a call. I do know that some of their training is free to exmil types. Good luck

Thanks for all of the info rickair7777.

"Also any school that wants ALL of your money up front is a big red flag...walk away immediately. You will want to pay in installments of 1K or 2K max"

That's definitely good advice. I have a friend that is completing his MEI at a local part 141 school that recently declared bankruptcy. He also had a substantial loan on the books with them, and has had to rush his final training to burn off the remaining balance of the loan prior to the "school" going out of business. Otherwise, that loan money would have disappeared.

You might consider asking around at your local airports to see what the best training options are in your area. Talk with everyone, CFI's, mechanics, student pilots, etc... to get the true picture. Of all of the "slam dunk" schools that I considered, I would have to say that ATP is fairly well regarded as well as Double Eagle in Tucson Arizona. However, I did not go to either one, as my current 9 to 5 job kept me rooted to this area. I was fortunate to find a couple of CFI's that cared about the *quality* of my training, not the quantity of hours in their log book, and I think that's an important distinction.

--Andy

You'll be much better off in the long run if you just go to University of North Dakota or try to get into Perdu's flight program. Get your degree. Its not needed but it is a very competetive market and you have to sell your product. Don't make rational decisions like I did and go to an academy. Think about the long run. Good luck with everything!!

If you are an Army pilot, don't discount the flight time you built up already. Look into transitioning your qualifications into certficiates. I used my G.I. bill at a local "genertic" college with a flight dept. In my opinion it helped me keep costs down. I also used my G.I. bill for the academics, for the actual flight training I had to use private loans. If I remember correctly the G.I. bill semester payouts don't even begin to cover the cost of flying.

use GI bill for BA/BS
 

Save the GI BILL benefits for an education you can fall back on. School know GIs have money and dreams and they structure their services to take advantage of you. I would get their rates in writing - all their rates then spring the news you are military. That may help lower your rates. If it doesn't and the first quote is reasonable go with it...If you get the shaft , walk your money to the competition.


-LA

Don't go to DCA or RAA- there both ripoffs. Try to find a smaller low key school that will accept a GI bill. Do not put a significant amount of money down in account anywhere. Over the last few years many have been burnt laying down thousands of $ and the school disapears.

There is a thing called pilot career foundation which will allow you to have a card with your money and swipe it as you go. That way if the school tries to run off with the money- they won't have access to your account.

Many schools expecially in the Orlando area, have been notorious for ripping off student pilots with CFI's milking students for time, retaking stage checks over and over, making false promises and flat out stealing.

Heed my warning.

Yeah, Orlando. Can anyone say ATA lol

I think the above hit it on the head...Don't pay it all up front, and avoid RAA/Delta acadamies. I am unimpressed wholly by both, as a checkairman for my airline. If you have a degree, I would recommend flight safety or PanAm. I have had great results with people from those schools. Get your private by itself first to make sure you like the flying before buying a package.

You don't have to have a 4-year degree, but if you want to go to the majors it helps. We have several folks who do online/correspondence degrees while on trips.

Good luck...If you have more Q's that need more "direct" answers, send a PM

RAA placed a little over 100 pilots with the airlines last year. I was just set up for an interview. The cost is high, but if you are willing to sacrifice a few years of loan payments, it's worth it. They are also partnered with Utah Valley State, so you can get your degree while you train, and your training counts towards college credits. As to the stability of the school, they've been around for seven years, I believe, and they continue to expand both their Florida campus and the Arizona one. Every school is going to have its positives and its negatives, but my experience here has been a good one. I did my type rating three months ago and three of the guys I went there with have been hired already and I hope to be as well.

[QUOTE=surfer1212]RAA placed a little over 100 pilots with the airlines last year. I was just set up for an interview with 390 hours total.QUOTE]

That's great, but did you get the job? By the way which airline was it?

Good luck!

Hey rickair. I remember hearing about ATA going under, but I don't really know any details beyond that. Do you have a good idea of what happened? I heard some people lost LOTS of money!
Thanks

Yeah, the family that ran that place (COMAIR and Delta pilots BTW) was trying to set-up their own commuter airline on the side with Brasilias. The rumor was that they were taking full deposits from new students at the flight school, and dumping all the money into the airline (I have no doubt of this based on my personal experiences with those clowns).

When 9/11 hit things went downhill real fast...but naturally they continued to accept new students and take their money too. One day the students came in and the doors were chained shut...they went BK and got sued by everybody, and I think there was law enforcement involvement too. I hope the entire Williams family ended up in jail.

I know a guy who was finnishing up his CFI at ATA when all this was happening. Yeah there was law enforcement in the mix beacuse using the studnets money to fund the airline or start up (w/e you want to call it) and that is fraud.

And as for a year and a few months ago the FBI was unable to locate them.

What about places like Mesa Pilot Development Program? Is it a legitimate
alternative to the CFI route?

I cannot tell you as much about Mesa Pilot Development as I can about other academies, but I just want to throw out two ideas to consider before you consider Mesa's program:

1. Have you ever been to Farmington, New Mexico? Well if you haven't, then I would recommend keeping it that way. Do you want to spend 2 years of your life there???

2. Do you have a college degree?
If yes, Mesa is a bad idea. It takes longer than most the other pay for training paths (2 years) because you receive a 2 year degree from San Juan College.

If no, then go get a real 4 year degree. First off, many major airlines require a 4 year degree. Second, you should have a backup career incase you get furloughed from an airline job (and it may happen). Having a 4 year degree is the highest recommendation I can give.

There is a really good thread about this called Information on MPD. It is at the bottom of page 2 (or check the top of page 3) of the regional forum. Read that!

All the other things aside (high cost, flying for mesa, Farmington, NM), the fact that their program is linked to a 2 year AA degree is the worst part of this program. I would not recommend this.

Not to single you out but I hear this a lot. Ya know it has validity to it but. It doesnt matter what you have your degree in if you dont have experience where do you plan on getting hired. Maybe Ive been looking at this the wrong way but All I picture when people say this is 8 years out of college yo get furloghed and say to hell with this. ANd then, you take your engineering degree to boeing and they instantly hire you up. All jobs are like the avaition industry. Without experience you dont get the job. Unless that is you can take your bussiness degree and go manage high schoolers at the local movie theater.

Well I disagree with the experience thing with respect to engineering because ALL my friends who graduated with an aerospace degree, who want a job in that industry, currently have one. Sure, some of us did some internships, but some people I know had no experience. To use your example, I have a friend Katherine working on the dreamliner at Boeing, and she probably makes more than I do!

But, there is really no reference to that in my above post. All I said (what you quoted) was that you absolutely should get a 4 year degree.
Two reasons:
1. You NEED one to get hired by a good major airline. PERIOD!
2. You better have a backup if you are going into a volatile industry like aviation.

Other reasons include...oh, I don't know...
It will be the best time of your life
Looks better than HS degree on ANY resume
You will learn more there than you ever will anywhere else

There are some other good ones, but I think you get my point.
If you are young, and you want to fly for a living (and make decent money), you should get a 4 year college degree.

But those people who got hired right out of college have new degrees, and have up-to-date training in that field. They are fresh out of college, the information is fresh and its all industry standard. If you have an engineering degree and try to use it 8 years down the line, it won't get you anywhere because you will have the expeirence in the field of someone right out of college, but you will not be up-to-date education. Your trying to get a job with no expierence and out-dated training, further you will not be as effecient as someone out of college or who has been in the industry because you have not touched the stuff since graduation.

I dont think he was arguing that you shouldn't get a degree, he was just saying that having a degree in a different field is not a valid backup unless you switch within 2-3 years, after that what your degree says is worthless because you haven't used it and you are no longer current with the industry. All it is, is a 4 year degree.

Yes thats exactly it thank you.

There could be some exceptions to that, such as if your degree is non-aviation, but closely involved with aviation. The perfect example is a meteorology degree, which I'm currently working on at Rutgers. Weather is a major part of flying, from sport pilot on up. In alot of ways, I use the stuff I learned in my meteo classes when I'm doing my weather planning. In general, a pilot with a meteorology degree is a great thing, as is a meteorologist who happens to have a pilots license. So if one gets furloughed they could take their meteorology degree and their years of real world piloting experience, and go into aviation meteorology, at a company like Meteorlogix, AccuWeather, etc. In general though, there are very very few degree fields that allow for that, and meteorology is a very difficult, math-intense major.

Not to burst your bubble, but that to is a tough back-up, Meteorlogix requires that its meterologists have "3-5 years operational forecasting experience," not sure if they would consider being a pilot as operational forecasting experience.

I think the idea here is to get a degree in something you like, doesn't matter what, but don't become too disillusioned about it being a good backup, this also applies to the non-aviation world, you won't get hired with a 5 year old degree and no expierence in the field. There are plenty of viable back-up jobs that require only a 4 year degree, and pay fairly well.

When looking at these degrees as back-ups, ask yourself "what do I have to offer that would look better than someone with 5 years expeirence, or someone with no expeirence but a brand new degree, and who is caught up with the industry?"

What you were taught for that degree has more than likely changed, and without actually being in the field, it is essentially out-dated knowledge. They would spend more money bringing you up to speed than they would with someone right out of college.

I still don't know how delta connection is still in business, isn't the word out already that they are the worst flight academy in the nation? As far as RAA some one said in this forum or another that RAA is after the money more than the quality training for the students.

I can agree with that. When I started there I wouldnt say the same but now with their multiple campuses (sp?) and crj type ratings and contracts it truely feels that they are just after the money. Ive missed the last few 141 meetings (cause im not there anymore thank god) but I hear they have been regular "you guys need to be steppin up your workload" sessions.

Too Much Money
 

You should really try Georgia Aviaiton Technical College. It is a state funded school so all the airplanes are new and they have plenty of them. Rates are really good. You only pay to rent the airplane, no instruction fee. Just as with flight safety, when you get your multi and cfi, you will be able to get your II and MEI for free. Check them out a www.gavtc.org. It is part of the university system of georgia so you have to pay a tuition but it is only like 500 per quarter and it certainly beats having to pay instruction costs and all that other bull. Give it a shot, it is a really good school, i just graduated about two months ago.

Thanks for the info lucky0131 i looked at the school and I am very interested, fell free to give me any other information about the school.

I am going to Delta Connection on June 15.
I will be taking the tour in a week or so.
I had the same problem in deciding so I called both and made them think I was getting enrolled with them tommorrow thats where you get the most information. Also ask both of them to compare themselves to each other.
You will get the same training accept both have one thing that the other doesn't. RAA makes you take a Type Rating towards the end of your training.
You dont really need this because the Airline you get hired by will Type Rate you anyway.
Delta Has seniority which makes them top pick for hiring,
Thats the Information I drew together over the past few weeks.
Delta came closer to my standards, but its completely up to you in the end of it. Plus you have on airport housing. which comes in great for transportation issues. If they were doing anything illegal you would of already seen them takin down by the major airlines they represent.

"Delta Has seniority which makes them top pick for hiring"

Could you explain that, please? What did they tell you?

"If they were doing anything illegal you would of already seen them takin down by the major airlines they represent"

Ummm....what?

I would go to an FBO at this point in time. I am currently enrolled at Regional Airline Academy, and they are screwing me out of money left and right. They promise you everything and then they charge you for every litttle thing.

goto ATP - the price is fixed and you'll leave with all the ratings you'll ever need. IF you are not a jerk you'll get a job as a CFI with them. The pay is not the best (something like 1200 per month) but you get a lot of ME time and will be ready for the next step...

V/r,
LAFF

I wouldnt even consider Regional Airline Academy, my instructors complain about it all the time... and as a student i can tell you READ THE CONTRACT really well. Regional Airline Academys contract that you sign is really cut throat.