0 TIME to CRJ in 10 months.......
 

We can all forget those days for it will be a few years before all that happens again.....that's if it ever does. A few years ago with a fresh comm-multi and a little over 300TT, I happened to be at the right place at the right time which was the right seat of a C-421 and then a C-550. The gig never lasted long for the company went under and there I was with a few hundred hours and a Commercial certificate that was not of mush use. It did not take long for me to realise the importance of that CFI certificate and off I went to get it done. A booming economy and expansion at many airlines fooled one too many pilots into thinking they did not need to obtain their CFI and many of us fell for it. I do not intend to preach to the choir, but I have come across many people eager to fly 121 with as few as 300 hours. My advice to all is do not even stop to think about it, but get out there obtain that CFI and find a job instructing to build that much coveted time. The sooner you all do it the better off you will be when hiring picks up. Keep in mind that there are thousands of guys out there with turbine time and are also waiting for the upturn. Question is how well do you think you will fare at an interview when you're up against a guy with turbine PIC?

I know I am going to get beat up for saying this but...
A CFI will not get your seniority number any higher, and it wont make new higher training any easier. If you can get into a 121 job early and you think you can handle new hire then go for it. The only thing a CFI will do is help you out if and when you get furloughed. It also prepares you for being a captain in the way your constantly looking for the next way the guy next to you is going to try to kill you or take your ticket. I think the best advice is to get in as soon as you can. I have friends that went to the regional with a wet tickets and I also have friends who got their CFI's. The guys who went with a wet ticket are furloughed and on unemployment, and the guys who got their CFI's are still waiting on calls from the regionals. When it comes down to it seniority matters. I don't think the 300 hour wonders will be back anytime soon so its kind of a mute point.

When you interview with a company, you are competing against yourself, not the other guy. A CFI may perhaps help you get an interview, but, you'll never know that. All you can do is work on making your resume as strong as possible.

I know people working for FedEx, UPS, DAL, CAL, and SWA who didn't even meet the minimums! They just happen to be at the right place, right time, and knew the right person.

-Fatty

That about sums it up right there

This is very true. And another point here is that even the CFI market is flooded right now. Part 61 schools are dropping like flies for lack of new student sign ups right now. Both part 61 schools I flew for are now gone.

To fly a cheap 150 dual, is running $120-130 per hour. There aren't many folks willing to cough that up right now. 1.5 hours of touch and gos and you're out nearly $200 bucks. For the average person that isn't a lawyer or the like, that is nearly 2 days of wages.

The upside of this is that it is a necessary ingredient to the upcoming pilot shortage that many believe is coming.

If you are holding your tickets right now and have "decent" experience to back them up, you are already light years ahead of the game for when hiring resumes in volume.

Exactly what I have been saying.. for the last year.

When the economy expands and things pick up the market will dictate that the airlines expand to meet demand. Well guess what we are not training at the rate we were a few years ago and I think that it would be about 3 years before the banks feel comfortable about loans for non-traditional training ie pilot training.. I think that not everone is going to come back from a furlough if they find something better in terms of money and QOL I think the perfect storm is brewing with regards to a pilot shortage its just gonna take sometime to develop

I was hired at a regional in my late twenties (28) after almost three years of flight istructing. When I got my CFI ('03) jobs were scarce at best and non existant at the airline level for the most part. Although I am little ashamed to admit it, I felt some jealousy and disgust seeing 20-21 year old 300 hr guys getting hired around the same time I was. I couldn't help but think that by the time they were my age the would either be Captains at our airline and be making three times what I am or be at majors. Many don't have degrees or CFI certs. Fresh from flight school to the right seat of an RJ. I've even talked to some where their job as an RJ FO is their first full time job.. I don't blame them for taking the job lord knows I would have had I had the chance. I had to work much much harder and longer to get to the same point in my career. But, thats life. Now, after doing this job for a couple of years I don't feel that way anymore. I'm actually happy that I was hired when I was. This job takes up so much of my life, I would have completely missed out on my twenties. All the parties, camping/hunting trips with friends, etc. I had a great four years in college and enough fun for a lifetime during my twenties with all the memories anyone could ever want. I feel bad that a lot of the young "300 hr wonders" as they are often called, will miss out on a lot of life because of this job. I forgot what the original topic of this thread was so this may make no sense. Sorry.lol

I am so happy I got my CFI, CFII and MEI. This might not be the norm but I feel like in the first semester of teaching my airmanship, decision making skills and basic knowledge of aviation improved twice as much as compared to what it was right after I got my CFI. That’s not to mention if I didn't get my instructor ratings I probably wouldn't have a flying job right now.

All things are possible to him that haveth the aforementioned.

I was told by a fellow member of OBAP who flys for UPSCO that once a person meets the minimums, if are able to get their resume walked into the chief pilot/review board's office and that line pilot feels that the perspective pilot would fit the company culture, then chances are good that they'll be hired.


atp

My company, nonaviation, but attatched firmly to the economy has been forced to do the same things as the airlines and most other industries over the last year and trim down staffing to meet the lack of demand. One interesting thing is that over the last few weeks demand has upticked just a bit and a few guys were injured and it exposed a big time lack of staffing. Everyone pretty much doing lots of overtime to try and get all the work done. It made me think that maybe companies have been downsizing too drastically in response to the recession. During the boom there was overexuberance and now the pendulum has swung to far in the opposite direction.
The airlines seem to have been some of the most aggressive in reducing staffing and capacity, so whenever the economy does turn, they should feel the biggest pinch. Hopefully this recession will be the low point in demand for a long time and airlines will have to continually increase staffing.

I agree with you, but also disagree with you. I got my CFI in the summer of 07. Back then, the only reason I got CFI was to keep myself current in flying, so my answer to "So, tell me what you have been doing since you got your multi-comm and now" was not "I was on my lazy boy drinking beer watching family guy. Now, I am so glad I actually went out and got my CFI.

I chose not to get my CFI for a couple reasons. The most important being that I think I would be a lousy teacher. Also, because I found a job at a 135 operator (which turned out to be a big waste of time.) After being told I would take a 25% paycut to my barely above food stamp wages, and that I would need to sign a contract (which I refused to do), I was fired. Now I'm sitting here with 500tt/400multi/300 turbine and no CFI. I think I'm just gonna cut my losses in this industry. Flying is my passion, I definitely have the bug. But you get to a point where you need a decent paycheck and job security, and I can't see that in my future in aviation. I applied to nursing school today...

FWIW,
Until UPS started hiring again in late 04, these were the minimums.

The late 90's was 2500tt, ATP written, FE written or rating, FCC license and 1st class medical.

Later, 1000 PIC was added (not turbine), and finally what there is today.

There are some junior captains, not any more, who don't meet today's minimums, but that wasn't the case when hired.

Guess I'm just waay old school, but there will always be nepotism and good ol' boys clubs and squadron buddies. And once in a while a 90-day wonder who no one will ever trust because his or her ability to GET a job far exceeds his ability to PERFORM one. My advise to all would-be professional pilots is to take the time and effort to become really good at each rung of the ladder. It's not enough for you to just get a CFI...instruct long enough to get really good at it. I know someone who expressed his desire to spend BIG BUCKS at some fancypants school to get checked out in the right seat of a King Air. I asked him why he'd want to squander so much for training to be a non required crewmember...a King Air is a single pilot airplane! Never mind the king air and instruct until you have 135 multi minimums, get a navajo or 400 series cessna job...and once again get really good at it.
When you finally get in to the Hero Chair of that shiny jet you'll have the chops to be there. Sorry I'll get off my soap box, now.

Why would you want to do anything else but drink beer and watch family guy. Sounds like a great sunday night.

Well said "j1b3ho" I couldn't agree more.
I guess that makes me old school too.

I agree people should take their time and be good at each step before preceeding onto bigger and better. Unfortunately, this industry is monetary based and even though the loan meltdown has slowed flight training it won't stop these programs from placing people into a jet in the future. They are just trying to ride this painful period out like everyone else. What that means is the zero to hero SJS person will always have the resources to get into the right seat.

Having a CFI right now will allow you to be the first in line of the hiring wave. All the furloughed and people currently waiting this period out will either take those jobs or not. Once that pool dries up thats when the system to enable someone to go from no time to jet time will kick in. If someone wanted to not CFI right now they wouldn't have to, and I'd think they could still make it into a jet in a couple of years when hiring picks up. Someone could get a job that pays enough for them to save enough to pay for the zero to hero program in a few years. Either way, if they CFI or not the companies are going to take em'. Its a vicious cycle...

Maybe a few years ago brotha, but if the all-powerful computer puts you in 'on-file' status, you're SOL. Thanks OBAP.

Getting my CFI/II/MEI years ago was great. Glad I did and I learned more from doing that about aviation than in any other job.

Been a 121 Captain for a long time now. Let my CFI lapse.

The reason is simple. If this industry turns so far south that the only job I can find is a CFI job, than I will bail from this profession.

Got my CFI-II so i could instruct, it was before the hiring boom took off like crazy. Renewed it with my ATP and Captain responsibilities, and am glad i did. Not that i want to go back to being a CFI, however, i'm looking for a way out of the industry, and if things work out the way they are, a CFI'ing on weekends job might be more than enough to get my taste of aviation....It's either that, or join a flying club...But we'll see which one wins out.

So I suppose I will take the first punch here ;)

This is exactly the same thing I have heard from every pilot who went straight to a regional job rather than instructing, or who wants to take that route. Only those of us who have instructed know how intangibly valuable flight instructing is. You can't explain how well you really begin to understand flying and the very fine nuances of it as an instructor. Not to mention what it means to be a professional pilot. Atwoo, I don't have ill words for you or anyone who had the opportunity to take an airline job without "having" to get your CFI because I probably would have taken the same path if it was available to me. Your "arguments" don't quite hold water though.

Being a CFI is the very first opportunity you have to be a leader. Sure other jobs may give you the opportunity to be PIC but more than likely you are going to be sitting alone much less have someone to the right of you. The first day I was an instructor was so much different than the last day I was a student. My first day as a captain was remarkably similar. Simplifiying instructing as trying to keep people from violating or killing you is very...well, simple. The idea that you can learn how to be a good captain (read leader) from just observing what is happening on your left is obsurd. You may have an idea of what does or does not make a good captain, but will you know how to do it?

And while your friends that went ahead and instructed are still waiting for calls, is anyone getting in ahead of them? I would guess not. And who do you think are going to be the first ones to get called when they start hiring off the street again? So how much senority are they really losing right now? I imagine they are also doing more flying right now than your friends on furlough...

OnTheWayUp, I know it hurts that you lost your job and kudos for standing up for what you believe you are worth regardless of the outcome. I doubt very many here would be able to make that stand. I would like to ask though; if hindsight were 20/20 and you had the chance to instruct rather than take the 135 job, would you have done it?

I started instructing July 2, 2001. We all know what happened two months later. At the time none of us really expected to instruct more than a year (long term). In fact, flying 135 cargo was the traditional next step. The two instructors at my school that had just left for inital ground school ended up snagging instructing jobs after getting their classes postponed. Ironically, I flew more the summer of 2002 than any other time to date. Granted its not the same scenario as today, but it is something to chew on. And if I may also say, if you cared enough to conclude you would make a lousy instructor, you would have made an exceptional instructor. If you really love it as you say, don't give up because nothing else will measure up:D Good luck in the future!

I hope this all makes sense as I'm now two beers in,

Cheers everyone!

Hiring Boom
 

I don't think that we will ever see the likes of what transpired over the last few years again. Back in the mid to late 1960's major airlines went through a period when they hired pilots with as little as 250 hours and no degree.

Those days are gone forever. Pilots in my generation talked about those days with sad longings. My guess is that the same can be said for the regional boom of the last ten years. 20 years from now new pilots will be sharing tales of guys who got hired at the regional with only a few hundred hours.

It is not too likely that the industry will recover any time soon. After the recession of 1991-1992 it took five or six years before hiring really got going again. This time it could take twice that long.

Those of you who value being an instructor most likely will get to do it for a long time.

SkyHigh

Why are those days gone forever? Do you think the SkyHigh of the 1960s possibly said the same thing.....and yet years and years later the same thing happened.


Or it is likely that the industry will recover soon and that it might not take twice as long to recover. Are you just giving opinions here Sky or do you have some economic facts to base these observations on?

USMCFLYR

He should have clarified. In the 60's, the MAJOR/LEGACY airlines were hiring those kind of pilots. I doubt that will EVER happen at a MAJOR/LEGACY again.

At the "regionals", sure, it'll happen again.

TRUE. Now that I would agree with.

USMCFLYR

Hopefully not...I doubt any regional will see rampant growth once again; 9/11 and the then-economy was a perfect-storm allowing the RJ-revolution. I would say we will all see a more stable industry in the coming years, as even the current dingleberries in CEO chairs do not want a repeat of this last year's disaster...and don't forget - Oil will once again climb.

Dude i dont' even remember my 20's....
Gooooood Times. I feel sorry for all the 20 year olds doing this job. Yes they will die with more money than me but in the end we all still die.

Scope.............

Amen! I wake up every day and love going to work, but at the same time I wonder what the $*&)@ I'm doing with my life...it is literally a blur since I left college. That is three years of my life, of my twenties, flying for the man, and having nearly squat to show for it.

Observations
 

I can only offer my personal observations. (My crystal ball is in the shop.) However over the last 10 years there was a surge of RJ's and pilots created. I can't imagine seeing growth on that magnitude again anytime within the next few decades. Most likely a major and a regional or two will go under withing the next year and there will be a few thousand more airline pilots on the street.

It will take most of the next ten years before they all find a home.

SKyhigh

Agreed to a point. I think 10 years is pessimistic. With stagnant hiring and many on the street no one is going anywhere. I assume people will get tired of the QOL, low pay and regional shuffle and give it up. Hiring in the near future will be for attrition. So there will be hiring. But does it really matter? they'll be more low paying regional jobs hiring before there are more higher paying mainline ones.

My point
 

Some regionals will hire. Others may go under. My point is that it will be a long time to never before we see 350 hour new hires again.

Jobs that do come available will be highly competitive. No more low timers or guys without a degree.

SkyHigh

Yeah, I'll admit, I probably would go back and take the instructor route if I could do it again. But even my best friend from flight school has lost his instructing job due to a lack of students. Now he waits tables, and I'm going back to school. If I could go back even further I would probably have stopped at my private license and kept flying as a hobby. Maybe it was just bad luck for me, or bad timing, who knows. But flight school has just left me unemployed and in debt. I know nothing is going to measure up to flying as a job, but the real world is banging on my door real hard and I don't think I can ignore it much longer.

A lot of people say they would keep flying as a hobby but not many people in the US can with the current prices. Well you can you just can't have a Girlfirend or a wife and kids.

Ultralights are where it's at boys...! 3.5 gallons of pure auto-gas per hour :D

Now THAT is flying for a hobby!

Are you the same guy that back in July was crying the end of the world was coming as oil approached $150 and claimed it would be $250 before the end of the year? Everyone knows the airlines industry is very cyclical with boom and bust cycles. It goes up, it goes down. We are going down now and it will go back up eventually. Just the way it works.

It's going to go up again and when it will, there will literally be no more pilots because no one is training right now.

I somewhat agree with the OP however, hose 200 hour wonders who got in before him are still going to go back to that job before the CFI applicant because they managed to get the seniority number first. In the end you still take the backseat, it's all about seniority. This recession will affect hardest those who do not have any pt121 experience because when things pick up again, it's going to go in the order of furloughed, pt121,pt135 then CFI. I'm way out of currency but it doesn't matter if you're furloughed because we're going to have to do training again. I have decided to give up flying for the mean time and focus on other things until there might be hopes again for a recall.

Exactly. Everyone fighting for low paying jobs. How exciting!<sarcasm> Who knows maybe things will change for the better. I don't think anyone knows or can predict. But talking about it makes good conversation. :)

Cyclical
 

Yes the airlines are cyclical. It will be another 40 years before we see 350 hour airline pilots again.

The industry goes through cycles small and large. Hiring will return, companies will recall pilots. The profession however does not cycle. It is in a slow state of continuous decomposition.

The big changes in oil have been postponed by the global recession. In 20 years people will save air travel for long overseas trips.

Skyhigh

Have y'all ever heard that pessimists (such as our friend SkyHigh) are more closely linked to reality? Well it's fact...don't discount SkyHigh purely because it is not what you want to hear. He balances out the optimism here very well.