WSJ: Pilot action may have led to Q400 crash
 

Pilot Action May Have Led to Crash - WSJ.com

Investigators examining last week's Continental Connection plane crash have gathered evidence that pilot commands -- not a buildup of ice on the wings and tail -- likely initiated the fatal dive of the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 into a neighborhood six miles short of the Buffalo, N.Y., airport, according to people familiar with the situation.

The stall could have been aggravated? Lord I hope not...

The latest theory I heard from my fellow Dash-8 pilots is the possibility of a deep stall being initiated from the initial 31 deg pitch up. Now what caused that pitch up is still very open for debate.

Are we really starting threads about blaming the pilots before the NTSB has finished their jobs?

Lets have a little respect and not go down this road. We sit and talk how the media jumps on every opportunity to blame the pilots and now we are posting this on here?

If you were involved in a crash that killed you and others wouldn't you want your fellow pilots to give you the benefit of waiting until the investigation was done before posting negative speculation?

WOW this is probably one of the worst reports that I have read on this accident, yet... He says in the article the NTSB is still investigating but the headline says:
Flight Data Show Response to Loss of Speed Resulted in Deadly Stall That Downed Plane


Wow.. un-freaking believable. And the whole article was speculation including the nice reference at the end of the 410 Pinnacle crash which has absolutley no similarity to this crash whatsoever. I'm thinking of responding to this moron who wrote this article.

x2

Let the investigation be carried out. Stop buying the CNN/Fox News hype.

Absolutely, well said. It's reports and things like these that lawyers crawl all over and start suing everybody and their mother before anything is even known, makes me SICK...

This artice upset me so much I had to send off an email to both of the writers of this crap.

if the article ****es you off, click the comments tab above it!

my brain hurts from the responses!! UGHHH

I did. I even just registered with WSJ online to post comments back but for whatever reason it is saying "error." I would love to take a few minutes to reply to all, especially the kid who plays Flight Sim and the guy who says "I am not a pilot but this explanation makes perfect sense to me."

I took it further and sent my anger in the form of an email to the writers of the junk.

Cool your jets guys
 

It is sad, no matter whatever the reason of the accident is, but let's just wait for the NTSB to do their jobs and determine the causes. If nothing else, we can all learn something from this tragedy. There may actually be some creedence in this WSJ article.
fbh

I agree, let them determine what happened, NTSB folks are true professionals and they are unbiased.

To me, this was the saddest part of the whole article... They almost made it... :(

"...The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data..."

What gets me, and I will not speculate about this accident until the NTSB comes out with a full report....many planes with abundance of power require a nose up attitude for stall recovery....this situation just makes me more and more sick!

Yes sir, I'm afraid the lawyers are standing by, ready to go. They eagerly await the results

you know what worries me...................It is not just aviation that the MEDIA botches up when reporting, think about it! Everything from bailouts to the economy is analyzed but these idiots and force fed to us and presumed as accurate, scary if you ask me :(

PS Yesterday when I was flying I was taking a look at the Attitude Indicate and man is 31 nose up a lot, I couldnt imagine being in that situation that low to ground.............terrble

The fine folks at the WSJ, a publication aimed at monitoring financial markets, somehow failed to advise us all to get out of the market 6-12 months ago, yet less than a week after the incident and with no aviation specialist on staff have determined it was the crew's fault.

My neighbor reads the WSJ. Maybe I should go into financial analysis.


I'm so mad I could spit.

Why do you folks torture yourselves by reading and discussing this trash reporting?

IF you read it often you'd seen that you should've started moving money around 12 months ago but nobody predicts $500B being removed from money market accounts in a 2 hour period in September that created a very expensive market crashing run. If you want to complain about the USA Today or NYT, I'm there. Anywhere you have a Ken and Barbie Doll reporting, I'm there complaining. But between the FT or WSJ, either one seems to know what they're talking about.

With that said, this is a forum and this article is reporting leaks FDR reports and if someone wants to post it and folks comment on it then fine. If for some reason this was a main wing stall and not an ice related tailplane stall then there is reason to compare it to the Jefferson City crash which had as a part of it deep stalls. The media screws up a lot of things when it comes to aviation but not everything. I'm sure if I leaked financial data to a pilot and asked them to write an article it might not be perfect either but it doesn't mean that the info isn't valid.

I mean how does this evidence not match up with the already NTSB evidence? If it was far out of whack then you could dismiss this information, but its not far out of whack. What tailplane stall causes a pitch up? Its worth reading if you're interested in following the crash.
But here are the pertinent parts of the article:

The investigation is still at an early stage, and National Transportation Safety Board officials have warned about ruling out potential causes or prematurely jumping to conclusions. But in the past few days, government and industry crash experts have gained a better understanding of the sequence of events as they have compared information from the plane's flight recorders with radar and weather data.

Mark Rosenker, the NTSB's acting chairman, said Tuesday that investigators still have "lots of data that needs to be examined," and "still more evidence that needs to be collected," before announcing firm conclusions.
...
Investigators initially focused their attention on potential ice buildup on the plane's wings -- a perpetual hazard of aviation. People familiar with the investigation cautioned that they still aren't sure whether icing may have played a contributing role in the crash because it was on the minds of the pilots, but they noted that another Q400 flew through "moderate" icing conditions on the same route from Newark, N.J., to Buffalo the same night, landing without incident less than an hour after the crash.

According to the plane's flight recorders, Flight 3407's descent into Buffalo was routine until roughly a minute before impact, when the crew lowered the landing gear, followed by the command to extend the wing flaps, which enable the plane to fly at slower speeds.

Almost immediately, these people say, the plane's air speed slowed rapidly, causing a stall-warning device known as a "stick-shaker" to cause the pilots' control column to vibrate. This was followed by a "stick-pusher," which automatically forces the stick forward.

At this point, the captain appears to have pulled back with enough force to overpower the stick-pusher and shoved the throttles to full power, according to people familiar with the matter. Safety board officials said the nose pitched up to a 31-degree angle. Already at a dangerously low speed, the wings immediately stopped generating lift. The plane whipped to the left and then entered a steep right turn, losing 800 feet of altitude in less than five seconds. At one point the right wing was perpendicular to the ground, according to information taken from the flight data recorder.

The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data.

A crash with many similarities occurred five years ago involving a regional jet operated by Pinnacle. Following that crash, which killed the two pilots outside Jefferson City, Mo., the safety board urged Pinnacle and other commuter operations to revamp training procedures, including how to recover from certain types of stalls. Investigators are seeking more information from Pinnacle about how it changed its procedures in the wake of the previous crash, as well as specific details about the training provided for the pilots on Flight 3407.

Pinnacle's Mr. Williams said that following the previous crash, "we continually evaluated our procedures in accordance with our commitment to safety."

Hey Forgot To Bid,

People on here want to moralize about what is right to talk about. You should know better, so stop being curious about what caused the crash (and how you can avoid the same fate) and wait just about forever for the official version. And oh yeah, all articles blaming pilots are complete garbage because we never make mistakes.

Oh geez, quit sounding like an incensed pre madonna, that and 9 posts makes me question your motives. YOU are completely off base, What we ( the pilots that struggle in the 121 environment, everyday) are trying to say is simply STOP SPECULATING, AND ASSUMING WHAT HAPPENED, UNTIL WE KNOW, AND YES THAT TAKES TIME, and then we can learn from the mistakes( be they pilot error or not), and adjust so a tradegy like this doesnt happen again..If you are a professional pilot ( as your profile suggests) then I think youd agree that to guess at the cause of this, and then change the way you fly based on that GUESS , would be totally uncalled for, and extremely premature.

That is all gear down before landing final checks...

Would that be pre-1958 or pre-1983? :)

Heaven forbid your mistake ever leads to someone getting hurt (and I mean that sincerely). But if it does, I will do you the courtesy of waiting "just about forever for the official version." Please extend this crew the same.

This report is disturbing to me because it was not a wire report, but written by WSJ reporters. The WSJ is usually pretty careful about what they write and publish...

Random question.. well kinda random :

Would a tail-stall set the stick-shaker off? Or does only a wing-stall do it?

I imagine only a wing-stall would do this, but not 100% sure.

this isnlt looking good

Struggle in the 121 environment, is that like outer space or something?

It is based on air data info and AoA...so a tailplane stall would probably not set it off initially unless the airplane was already at AS and AoA conditions which were conducive to wing stall.

Whether this was a main wing stall or ice induced tailplane stall the resulting focus we've had on tailplane ice will at the least remind of us to think twice about ice forming on the tail and what that means to you, whether you fly anti-ice or de-ice aircraft.

Just because you have anti-ice doesn't mean that with a malfunction or OEI you won't be faced with ice buildup while trying to land.
...
And to my knowledge stoki, the nose would pitch down in a "pure" tailplane stall and that shouldn't set off the shaker or pusher. I could be wrong. I watched those videos from NASA and I'll play with it when I get to the sim shortly.

I agree with you, Rick. We're all trying to figure out what happened that night in Buffalo, and this piece certainly sheds some light.

My standard for "speculation" is-- is the info coming from the NTSB briefings? If so, we pilots can draw our own conclusions without having to wait a year for the final NTSB finding.

Yea, I was thinking at the "initial" stall.
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I also watched that NASA video, which was really good and was thinking the same. Let us know what you find in the SIM, forgot to bid.


and let's all hope that article is wrong.

If true, there are absolutely parallels to Pinnacle's crash. I believe the article is raising the possibility that the crew may have not added power and allowed the airplane to slow to stick shaker/pusher activation. The report indicates the Captain may have pulled back on the stick (natural reaction when the nose drops suddenly). This could have led to a full stall which is the same thing that happened in the Pinnacle crash. Pilot response following stick shaker/pusher induced the stall. I believe that is what the article is insinuating. As I posted previously, the information coming to light is indicating why crews need to remain vigilant during all phases of flight and always fly the airplane.

Its what people do. Its just a way of talking it out and maybe, just maybe, coming up with a reason, good or bad. No blame, just talk.

I agree, if they did get slow, they both may have been looking at a chart discussing something, you just never know...............I Would love to hear an NTSB briefing right now, all the news channels are to consumed with the White trash lady and her 14 kids..............

Im impressed the CA was able to overpower the stick-pusher, everytime i do it in the sim it pulls me outta my seat, i dont think i could over-power it with my feet braced on the panel (but then again, I am weak...)

You could if you were in the real airplane tumbling to the ground.....trust me.

well...................the ADRENALINE that pumps through your body when you are looking at the ground in an airplane can do some AMAZAING things. I am not trying to be funny the human body is an amazing machine and FIGHT or FLIGHT is an amazing chemical reaction in the body

Overpowering the pusher is easy. The problem is that after spending years in a training department, every time I'd watch a pilot try and override the pusher, they invariably went into a series of PIO where they were fighting the pusher (yolk going forward and back) until ground impact. Not knowing the Q I can't specify how its pusher works, but in other planes I've flown that had it, the pusher worked off AOA. The only way to cancel the pusher is to reduce AOA unless you do a pusher override. When the oscillations begin most pilots don't think of pushing forward and reducing AOA especially if they are close to the ground.

Of course I agree with that, i am just always amazed at the force of the stick-pusher in the sim and honestly I'M IMPRESSED that he could pull it back!

What exactly is a 'pre madonna?'

Is that before material girl?

Geez are you friggin kidding me, Im refering to how hard it is to survive these days at a regional, while constantly being under a microscope, for boaderline minimum wages, why because we are all serious about what we do, so at least have some respect for the crew. If they made a mistake, we will find out about it, and it is up to all of us to re evaluate how we react to similar situations, in the interest of safety. But for God sakes, at least let the the info come out before speculating about how to correct it. Ill go out on a limb here and say, Im sure that flight crew wasnt trying to crash an airplane... Mabye it was pilot error, and if so you need to realize you, and all of us are capable of making one too, we are human, that is why we have to evaluate the FACTS and learn from them, so have some respect...Lets all learn from this tragedy, AFTER the facts are known..