Cape Air
 

In the C402, how does the First Officer log time? It's a one pilot airplane.

Do their Operation Specs. require two pilots since they fly both 121, 135?
In which case... Does the FO log SIC for the 402?

Interested to hear what many of you think about this airline as a place to start off your career.

In addition, to anyone who may have the answer to the above please post!


Sincerely yours,
jdoggins.

I use them often from SJU. I have never seen them fly with a copilot. Normally they use the seat for passengers.

I beleive the CO-pilot position is only for training purposes.

The FO would log SIC for any live legs with passengers and sole-manipulator PIC for Part 91 repositioning/ferry flights. That's at least how I understand it. Perhaps an FO could chime in and explain it better because I'm not 100% up to speed on it. I know they log it though.

As far as a career starter, I think it'd be a great place. The 402 is a good first step up from a training aircraft, in that it's a high performance turbo twin that actually requires some care and technique. It'll also teach you how to interact with passengers and how to operate as a crew. And when you get your 1500TT you'll get an ATP and get some good Part 135 PIC time. Granted, it's not turbine, but it's still great experience IMHO.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pa...pe-air-21.html

Check out DylanFan's post on this page. And the rest of the thread.

I work for a 135 op that has an FAA approved SIC program. Per the FAA's requirement, the SIC is trained and tested to the same standard as the 135 PIC's. They even get an 8410 that has to be kept on record with the company. They legally can manipulate the controls, as well as log PIC time for any duration of the flight that they are the sole manipulator, as long as of course a legal PIC is next to them.

As for when they are not the sole manipulator, this is where it gets tricky. I've read the letter that was sent to the company from the FAA in Washington in regards to this very topic. The letter stated that these SICs can "act as SIC" but because the plane is certified for one pilot only, "under no circumstances shall they log SIC". From what I understand if you touch the controls, it's PIC, if you don't, it's not even flight time.

That being said, we are a cargo op. If the regs require an SIC even though the plane does not require it (example: FAR 135.105), I imagine you would be able to to log it as SIC.

Let me state that this is my understanding, and by no means an exaustive one. However, I've seen the documents from the FAA and it seems very compelling.

Hope this helps

Maybe it works different when you carry pax and when you carry cargo as someone mentioned above. As i just asked on another thread, think about the guys from Scenic and New Mexico Airlines.:rolleyes:

Nice writeup. I do think that it's a bit different with Cape because in being a scheduled commuter carrier with multiengine airplanes, an ATP is legally required to act as PIC on a live leg. I'm pretty certain FOs are only allowed to log SIC on a 135 leg unless they have an ATP, in which case they wouldn't be flying as an FO in the first place. :)

Hell, I dunno. This was the subject of a pretty good watercooler discussion I had with a few other pilots a few weeks back. That was the consensus. Could be horribly wrong. :D

I think the answer is in whether the FAA requires or does not require the SIC. Our op is approved for SIC but not required. It would have to be this way, otherwise who would fly the required right seat in a passenger op if you couldn't log it. Sadly, the problem is the FAA's reluctance to take a position on, or for that matter, explain anything.

Hi!

If you are REQUIRED to be the SIC (insurance, ops specs, whatever), you can log SIC the whole time. Cape Air uses SICs, for example, in the Capt's first 100 hours at Cape Air-they legally need an SIC for that time period. You CAN log PIC when you are flying, if you are rated.

HOWEVER, for almost all of your interviewing and applying purposes at other flying organizations, they only want PIC when you are legally responsible for the aircraft and signed the logbook.

If you are a student pilot, no PIC/SIC, even when you are solo.

I am applying for the Japan 767 contract jobs, and you are ONLY allowed to count PIC/SIC (multi-crew or single pilot) time. So, even your INSTRUCTOR time doesn't count towards the 3000 minimums, much less solo or student, or anything else!!!

cliff
GRB

Hi Cliff,

Not sure I understand your last two points. If a student pilot is solo, why not log PIC? I did, I mean, who else is PIC on a solo? :D

Also, as an instructor you are signing for the aircraft. I'd think that's the legal definition of PIC per 91.3, is it not?

SICs can log time if they are required for single pilot "passenger" airplanes and there is no autopilot. If there is an AP, then technically they're not needed at all. To me if you're acting as an SIC on any airplane it should still be legal time, you're doing something in a multi crew environment.

So are you telling me that all those twin otters fron scenic airlines and all those vans from pacific wings, new mexico and the other one i cant remember that flies out of KATL are not equipped with autopilots?:eek:

That's the issue at hand. Cape FOs log time even on clear VFR days without an IFR flightplan on file. As far as I'm aware, an SIC is only needed in a 135 passenger environment in a single-pilot airplane if:

1) The CA is on high mins (first 100 hours of PIC) under IFR.
2) The autopilot is inoperative under IFR.

Now, I could definitely see FOs logging sole-manipulator PIC, but I'm not sure how legal that is when an ATP is required to be PIC on a 135 leg. I'm going through the ops specs and I'm not finding much beyond just the rules laid out in 135.101 and .105. I know Cape's been doing this for years though, so I know there has to be a legal way to do it. Just not sure what it looks like in a logbook. :)

You probably know this, but it's not just enough to have an autopilot. Under 135.105 the autopilot has to be of certain capability, and you need a waiver in your op specs to fly single pilot. Why these companies have an SIC could be for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to insurance or just that the company thinks it's safer that way.

Scenic is OK they require FOs. PAC wings is shady, a PIC can fly alone.

well, i got to the conclusion that as long as it is on the opspecs / FO REQUIERED / (which in term would be approved by the FAA) you can have a flight eng. on a 152 if you want to.....:D

Yeah, but could you log it? I'm kidding! :D

Does the FAA consider Cape Air a "commuter" operation or a scheduled 135 operation. Per FAR 119, it would seem pretty clear that they are a commuter. But I've been told by folks who should know about these things that Cape Air was a sched 135. I'm soooo confused. Where's a Cape Air pilot when you need them?

Yes, Cape Air is a commuter operation as defined by Part 119, operating under Part 135. Part 135.243 should clear it up:

Sec. 135.243 - Pilot in command qualifications.

(a) No certificate holder may use a person, nor may any person serve, as pilot in command in passenger-carrying operations --

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.

:D

Beat me to it. :D

I saw your response before you edited it and I thought you explained it better than me anyway. :)

The way I saw it was that an SIC could be used in lieu of an autopilot. So I logged SIC on legs with passengers on board. On pt 91 repo legs that I was PF, I logged PIC.

Regardless of how to log the time, it was one of the best learning experiences I've had so far in my four years of flying. Once I reach ATP mins, that accrued experience is what's going to count the most.

I saw an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilot positions in the BWI area? Is there any truth to this, or is this just CLT350 recycling their posts.

So far all of the BWI flying is crewed with pilots already on property. There isn't currently a BWI crew base; the pilots are based in Lancaster, PA (LNS), and Hagerstown, MD (HGR). I don't think any of us could rule out a BWI base completely (anything could happen), but right now the lines are built out of the outstations.

Here you see a difference between 9K and other airlines. Most airlines have pilots on furlough. Cape Air fills their aircraft with paid crewmembers that 98% of the time are not required. ;)

Its just the opposite. An SIC is a required crewmember. An autopilot may be used in lieu of the required crewmember.

I actually did read the FARs before I posted my question, but I NEVER trust myself when it comes to the FARs! Maybe it's all that repressed part 135 trauma...

Quite correct. And use of an autopilot in lieu of an SIC must be approved by the administrator and listed in the OpSpecs.

Ya got me Rob. I guess all those days of getting bumped off of full flights w/ an operating autopilot were a real blow to my ego. On the other hand, those days when I could tell ground ops that they couldn't bump me off the flight due to an MEL'd autopilot were the best :D

MOCHA

9k

It is so common to use the autopilot in lieu of the SIC that people forget which one is required and which one is optional. Then they get all wound up about the "legality" of logging time. If you're an SIC, and by that I mean a current company pilot, not Joe Schmoe off the street with a Multi-Comm, than you log all the legs you work as SIC. If you're on a ferry or repo, and you don't have a current PIC checkride, or a check airman onboard who says otherwise, you'd better still be logging SIC time, and not PIC even if you're doing all the flying.

In order to log SIC, does the flight have to be operated under IFR? I believe someone mentioned that many flights in the Carib are flown VFR.