How to increase pilot's salary
 

Ok. Before anyone get's the wrong idea, this is only a thread and I guess all I'm doing is sharing my thoughts but here we go:

I'm not an airline pilot, I am a CFI and I have been for close to a year and a half. I did get hired by Comair and Eagle and now Im swimming in their pools.
I enjoy my job and I feel like in this country our jobs, including instructing is under-appreciated and I feel like pilot's have been taken advantage of so I think it would be nice if pilots get the respect back, the kind that I have heard of and read about, the one back in the 1970s. The reason why Im writing this is because after doing my taxes, and looking at the income of my friends working for regional airlines, I made more, and that's just pathetic. (Not the pilot's fault at all, just saying it's just wrong) so how do we fix it? I thought about it, and I think one way of fixing pilot's salary would be some kind of government help, and I don't mean that the government should pay us or anything like that, just hear me out. (and this may not be an original idea, please don't start bashing me and say it's a stupid idea, just give me an honest response, good or bad)

For each seat occupied, there would be a fee of $5. (Rev or non-rev) EVERYONE sitting in a seat on a flight pays 5 dollars extra - call it Pilot's fee or whatever you like.
If you buy a ticket and there is a connection, fee is applied only once. if it is a non rev, then you have to pay it for each flight. (if you think about it guys, 5 bucks extra to fly from one city to another isn't that much)
Now, the only way this would work, is IF all the airlines had to charge that fee, and I think the only way they can do it if the government stepped in and make it a required fee (sort of a tax).

I did some calculations for Delta. I looked up the amount of passengers they carried in the month of January, 2009. It was 7.65 million. I also looked up the amount of pilot's Delta employs. I did go through most of the regionals that I found are contracted by Delta and the total number of pilot's came to 22,887 pilots. Please correct me if anyone wants to find out the actual number. BUT FOR THE SAKE of the argument here, let's use those numbers. $5 x 7,650,000 = 38,250,000 and dividing that by 22,887 gives me 1671.25 That would be the amount of money each pilot would receive extra after the month ended and based on the numbers for each month.

Now, here we go with some of the problems I've thought of:
Why only pilots get this money? and not FAs? well because pilot is a skilled job, which takes a lot of effort, time, money to train for. And I have to say, as a flight instructor, I have seen a lot of students who try few lessons and realize it is not for them. FA's don't spend months of training, long hundreds of hours, and spend THOUSANDS of dollars on their training, so I feel like that is a fair reason why this fee is for pilot's only.

Airlines don't want to increase their ticket prices. - well, you know what, whenever someone feels like flying in a multi million dollar jet from NY to MIA for 100 bucks is fair, well then extra 5 bucks won't hurt anyone. besides, it used to be a privilege to be flying in an airplane, now it seems like stepping into a bus (no offense to you guys working your A$$ off working for the airlines)

Ok. please dont Bash my idea, i mean, Im just sharing my thoughts and if you dont like it, then well maybe you shouldnt fight for your right to earn a more respectful salary for your highly valued skill.

If anyone wishes to add something to this, let me know, if you guys think it is a good idea, then perhaps its time to do something about it, I mean Im not working for the airlines (yet) but I'd love to do anything to turn this career around and make it better than it seems to be right now.

PS sorry for the long thread.
PolishPilot

Sorry man but what makes you think the government has any care about pilot wages. The economy is in the toilet right now and pilot wages is right next to midget cross dressers in the governments priorty list.

This will never fly and as an airline pilot I would not want something called "pilot fee" on a ticket. If I buy lunch should i have something called "cooks fee" on my bill, of course not.

Your intentions are good, just a bad idea.

I'm with you brother, not enough people care though, especially with the current times. People will do anything.

Right now Transstates pilots as well as a few other pilot groups are trying to raise the bar and salaries in negotiations. The only thing we can do is stand united and support them. That is something we can actually do instead of wishing for fair work rules and salaries. It's a chance for us pilots to do something about our work rules, rather than asking the gov for help.

Good luck trying to get airline pilots to agree to pay a 5 dollar nonrev fee when a lot of the pilots commute...Pretty sure they would be ****ed to pay even more money to go to work besides the crashpad/hotel costs.

How to increase pilot's salary
 

Fly slower.

I think, unless they start doing IAD-GSP in helicopters, we can't fly slow enough to make it worthwhile... Maybe a blimp?

How to increase pilot's salary
 

Tip jar at the door !

There's always a hold out there somewhere :D Don't stop till you reach the PLI.

Hey, I see you fly the "9"...cool:p

A valiant effort and some good thoughts, but extremely unpractical in the real world.

I guess you haven't heard anyone complain about baggage fees. Or pay-for meals. Or movies. Or blankets and pillows. Or USAir's failed attempt at a soda fee? Or the extra 50-60 bucks worth in taxes and surcharges anytime you buy a ticket anywhere in this country.

Yeah, and people used to dress up to go flying, now it looks like a Greyhound bus station. And we're treated as such due to public perception. Anytime something goes off without a glitch or mishap 99.9% of the time, people start to take it for granted.

Think about your TV remote. It works every time you pick it up, but when you lose it... you can't imagine having to get up and change the channel or even look for it. In a sick twisted way, if planes crashed left and right we'd get more respect. Look at what Sully did for the industry for about a week. Every passenger was thankful and respectful. Then... they forgot.

How to increase pilot's salary
 

Make fewer pilots.

Tristar, I agree completely, it does look like a greyhound bus station. It used to be that if you can afford to fly, you would fly. It was almost as if you increased your status in the society by flying. And if you couldnt afford to fly, you took the bus or train across the country. but those times are over, and we all know it.
And yeah, I remember that people used to get dressed when they flew. I might be young but my parents had me dressed up when I was younger when I had to fly cross Atlantic. But maybe that's because my parents made me do it :)
Not to digress too much, I flew on Jet Blue from Florida to NYC about a year ago, and a guy sitting next to me had the testicles (ahem) to take his shoes off and just sit there, stinking up the plane, I mean, comon, really? where are the manners?

I might of missed the fact that the government doesnt care, and sure there are bigger problems and issues that the government is facing right now. But it's not like this would be something the government has to pay. It is a service fee that has to be implemented to each ticket. simple as that. and it's completely not like your baggage fee or the new ryan air toilet fee (that's just, funny, heh) anyway, it's more like a tax, mandated by all 121 carriers, so that all ticket prices go up the same amount, for all airlines, not just delta, or american.

And for those of you guys commuting, paying 5 dollars to fly from chicago to NYC, for example, would be all that much? I mean it costs 2 dollars to travel on the subway in NYC. 5 dollars to fly anywhere to me isn't that much, to help and support your fellow pilots.
Am I that crazy to actually see this work? Heck, if ryan air can charge for their use of a toilet, a simple fee to increase pilot's pay, I feel would be more rational. Besides, from what I've seen, most regional pilots complain because of the low pay and long days. Don't you think that over time it would maybe make the pilot's feel a little bit better coming to work, knowing you're getting paid a little bit more for your work?

The crew who landed in the hudson did a great job with bringing the reality of pilot's lives to the public, but still, when someone asks me how much a starting regional airline pilot makes, I respond by saying mid 20K per year, which is about right. Then I get called a liar and get cursed out sometimes, so yea, perhaps it's time the public was made aware of this because it seems unreal to me that the public is doesnt want to believe me (and im pretty sure most of you guys have similar experiences with this). Or perhaps they dont care as long as the ticket prices get cheaper so they can fly a thousand miles on a nice jet for as little as possible.

aaahh I could use an extra 1500 a month..too bad the damn airline execs would find a way to steal that from us too:mad:

Another thing I noticed while staying at a hotel last week - there's a room tax and an occupancy tax. So what is that? You have to pay a tax for staying in the room, but then you have to pay a tax because there IS a room? If people accept this without complaining, we could get a $5 fee through. Tack it onto the rest of the fees like on a cell phone bill. That seems to work for those people.

Capitalism will sort out the wages situation on its own, sans government. There is a gluttony of pilots right now. All an employer has to do is merely look like he's hiring and he'll be flooded with pilots looking for a job. From a capitalistic viewpoint, why pay more to someone to do the job when someone else will do it for that low rate? Furthermore, why potentially burden your customers with an extra fee that will do nothing but potentially deter them to another company?

The reality: Its going to have to get REALLY bad so that enough pilots throw in the towel and the ranks get cleaned out a bit or when the economy recovers and age 65 runs its course. When the job line ends and the recruiter still needs pilots and the resume stack is no longer several feet high, the wages will go up.

I've been in aviation since 1973. I remember what it was like. To be an airline pilot back then was like being a neurosurgeon or something like that ( don't take me seriously on that one). The public perception today is that we are a highly paid bunch of bus drivers that still make that kind of money like back then. The public thinks we are all rich beyond belief, just because we fly airplanes. We will never be able to educate them otherwise.

As far as a $5 fee. We ALL would like to make a little more money, ya know, feed our kids, ourselves, etc. We do not need anymore government intervention on what we do. If they said "We have to implement a $5 fee for this or for that" John Q. Public would have a ******fit. And then the cost of mandating and implementing this would be horrendous. Remember how well and "efficient" our elected officials run things. Okay, rant over.

I hate to say it, but the way to increase pilot pay is decrease supply. As more people quit this job for more lucrative careers it'll get better. The more people the leave, the better it will get.

It is simple...forget about the pilot group as a whole. The pilot group as a whole is pretty dumb/underqualified...I mean they push buttons in jets at 300 hours, and if an FO can push those buttons at 300 hours who gives a Flurk if he can push them at 2000 hours...how great can they be??? Thus pay goes down. Think about yourself when it comes to pay...dont run with your hair on fire to the nearest regional airline as if they have the only fire hose in town.

Flight instruct to 135 mins or ATP mins and actually LEARN something, and then go to the BEST PAYING regional...or go to a 135 operation. 135 operators usually hire first year guys at 24k and then they advance up to 30k much quicker than going through the 121 route. I would say a guy with 1 year of 135 experience is worth 30-40k easy. Guys with 135 experience are almost always better pilots due to the fact they usually dont have a captain to babysit them and you cant get into a 135 operation with only 300 hours. Also they often have less automated aircraft and pink line producing equipment (They actually have to know what they are doing and be situationally aware).

Does that really make sense...the guy with less experience is flying bigger equipment and the guy with 135/ATP mins is flying a smaller PISTON aircraft???...a guy with 1500 hours is flying a piston twin (by himself) is making more $$$ than a guy with 300 hours flying a jet? Then you need to remember that a lot of 135 operators dont care to interview 121 SIC guys because they know they probably dont have PIC time or decision making experience with the wx/NOTAMS/or just straight up have a pair.

What are most guys with 1 year of 121 experience worth at the regional level worth? 16k to 22k. The BEST PAYING regional (Horizon) starts out at about 27k. I am also describing a "normal" economic climate. Of course then you have to remember ANYONE who flys a jet at the REGIONAL level is helping to nose dive, and add full power, to the plane that is carrying pilot salaries.

How about not jumping to the lowest paying, bottom-feeder, no-union scab airline that will hire you first?

I think if pilots had a bit more dignity and waited until they could be hired by a respectable top-tier regional then it would force the bottom end of the airline spectrum to strighten up.

Don't be in such a hurry to become a "real airline pilot."

Don't count on the quick upgrade either. I think it's obvious now that you can be stuck somewhere for quite a while. Do your homework and find out where you really want to be.

Why even go to a regional?!?!?! That is where the low pay comes from...go to another type of flying. The problem is everyone is caught up with the contract/politics rumors that they never stop to realize....THE SIMPLE FACT THAT YOU EVEN PARTICIPATE IN THE REGIONAL AIRLINE GAME IS WHY YOUR PAY IS GARBAGE! 135 operators were DESPARATE for pilots just 6 months ago...those guys are less likely to get furloughed due to the fact that they are usually not as directly connected to the public and economy.

Someone can die and be just as dead regardless of the level of automation the aircraft possesses. While I agree with your sentiment, 135 time is better experience in many cases than 121 time SIC, one should be paid for the level of responsibility they are assuming, not for what they actually DO.

A ditch digger works harder than I do every single day, but I make a hell of a lot more. The difference is that if the ditch is dug incorrectly, you just fix it. You can't undo a mistake in the aviation world.

Same thing with lawyers, doctors, CPAs, and other professionals, they never get their hands dirty, wear starched shirts, and sit in A/C all day. But if a mistake is made, lawsuits fly - and that risk deserves adequate compensation.

An FO for 121 is second in command. As such, he/she should not get PIC pay, of course. But should the captain have a problem, who is responsible for the safety of the multi million dollar airplane and its occupants? Decisions will be made that could bring largely different outcomes in the end.

Polishpilot; You’re brainstorming to resolve this dilemma and that’s good. That is exactly what we all should be doing instead of giving into resignation, which seems to be in full force on this site most of the time. I thought of a similar idea years ago. 5 bucks per seat adds up to a lot of money and who cares about 5 bucks I thought? Turns out the average Joe Public does and he’ll spend 3 hours sifting through Airlines on Orbitz, Priceline, ect… to save that five bucks. The only way to increase the cost of a ticket (and increase our pay and self respect) that I can see is for regulation as you proposed or for ALPA to get off their *ss and work for their (our) money. I work hard for my peanuts and they should work hard to get a bite of mine. If ALPA were to take on a full attack against all airlines backed by all airline pilots at one time we may be able to change something. What is ALPA’s reason for existence at this point? By asking that I don’t mean get rid of ALPA. I mean; isn’t their entire existence to keep us out of the current situation we are in? I don’t know what to do about that. If ALPA was any other service provider of mine and they didn’t hold up to their services I would discontinue the service. But on the other hand we need a union. Where is our representation?
My rant is over for now.
Keep brainstorming!!!

I was going to make similar comments. I'll reiterate what has been previously said. If no one does the job for the pay companies are offering, then one of two things will happen. Either the service simply will not be offered, or the pay will increase.

The way to raise pay is simply do not become a regional airline pilot. Do not go to pilot school and assume all the financial responsibility for your own training.

I am looking for a different job right now (bad time). I will do my best to help this industry by simply not working for it. But I am not quitting unless I can walk into something else.

As far as the union route goes go, it is full of good people. But it requires a lot of faith in the system. They certainly help on day to day injustices and help to insure high levels of professionalism. I have faith in the people that volunteer their time to the union, but not much faith in the system as a whole. If you are not willing or able to walk away from the company or the job, then striking and other tactics are just gamesmanship.

Help the airline career. Become a lawyer or a doctor.

Actually, I am little surprised no one in ALPA or any other major pilot union hasn't raised the idea of organizing a campaigning against pilot schools. Maybe something that would help cut future supply off and absolutely force businesses to do something about it. Maybe take out large ads in pilot magazines or news paper ads. I volunteer for that.

It seems many people on this thread have a case of pull up the ladder behind you after you are already onboard the boad

I certainly agree that the current trajectory that regional airlines are on lowers pay for pilots everywhere...

Isn't organizing a campaign against flight training a little off? Exepting (many) of those with a military background, every regional, major, 135, and cooporate, got where they are because of a flight school, and owe much of their experience building to CFI jobs.

It is really easy to keep your OWN interests in mind and wish for fewer flight schools, while at the same time asking everyone else to sacrifice for the common good...

how about a stronger negotiating committee

WE (ALPA) are........


I urge you guys to send your thoughts/suggestions to ALPA's National Education Committee Chairmen, as well as a fellow Expressjet F/O, Paul Ryder an email

[email protected]

Yeah I agree, The nursing profession does it. There are waiting lists to get into college. They only let so many in according to demand. It keeps the pay scale in check and allows the colleges to require higher grades and accomplishments by those who want in.

Good point, well articulated.

However, I think you missed the intent of my post. Maybe going after flight schools with a vengeful attitude is not a correct response. They are businesses that have to use effective marketing to keep themselves running. However, countering propaganda with education, real opinions and perspectives might help.

Now that I am here, I feel a little guilty myself. I point to myself as one of the reasons that many pilots have to make large sacrifices and face major uncertainties for slim rewarding prospects. I fell for the propaganda. I fell for the "pay your dues" attitude. I spent way too much on flight training because I fell for the idea that certain schools provided a better quality training product than others (my family did too).

I would like to apologize to the rest of the professional pilot community for my mistake. I kind of feel like the only logical action at this point would be to cut my loses and jump off the boat. But i got nothing to jump into. I think that is a similar scenario that many people find themselves in. If you have kids, a mortgage and your family requires two incomes, you may feel even more stuck in the current situation. So in that perspective, it doesn't look so bleak to me. I can still make major changes and keep my overpriced hobby. I think that doing so will be for the greater good.

Remember...it is not airline vs airline (even though that's what they want you to think). It is really pilots vs management. Maybe the almighty unions can get a strike that transcends multiple airlines. Would a strike be more successful if there were 4 airlines that all just walked out on the same day??? And start small...have one demand...for example anyone flying a plane with 50+ seats must have an FO starting hourly rate of $30.00 with a $4.00 raise a year. Have the unions get together and form a contract...and maybe have stipulations that management must not make over X amount of dollars if the pilots are only making X-Y amount of dollars. Otherwise the UNIONS ARE WORTHLESS!

I believe there is too wide of a spectrum of pilots even within one airline to accomplish such a industry-wide referendum. Older pilots for example do not want to jeapordize retirement income in order to make sure first yr FO's get a higher pay rate.

It needs to start with the new hires picking the best airlines to work for. That will, in turn, force the lower end airlines to match the QOL and pay.

What ALPA can do is develop some kind of program to help new pilots wanting to become airline pilots and CFI's who are building hours toward an airline job to help guide them. Besides these kind of forums and word-of-mouth info, no one knows what is a good airline besides a quick upgrade and first year pay.

In fact, I have seen posts on this forum recommending for a CFI to go to the airline which has the quickest upgrade without any other considerations. THAT is the problem right there.

You raise a good point...but remember...If you are a 10 year captain you probably want the younger guys making decent money so that they DONT lower the bar. So to not stick up for each other as a whole in any company is very selfish and short sided. If the older guys dont look out for the younger guys, why should the younger guys care about the quality of life of the older guys when they just need to get their foot in the door. It is a viscious cycle that stems from selfishness, lack of leadership, and pure stupidity.

how would a strike on such a large scale be organized? To me, it seems that if every pilot walked out, the management would have no choice but to accommodate the demands of the pilot force. Just getting everyone on board is probably impossible. Like said before, why would a senior captain making a good salary want to go on strike? he's probably not going to gain much from the strike, UNLESS the demands requested by the pilots actually do take in consideration, not only the new and young pilots, but the senior pilots as well. Maybe because we do have too many pilots in this country, it gives the management some upper hand in control. If they know they can replace any pilot at any time, then why should they care about you? You're just as easily replaceable. So if my idea of having an extra 5 bucks, or whatever it is, per seat mandated by ALL airlines, so that the average joe can not escape the fee, then perhaps we have to wait until management runs out of applications and schools run out of CFIs. Perhaps then pilots would have a something to use against management to get better pay, etc.
AND why cant there be a law that in order to fly passengers for an airline, both the First officer and Captain must have ATP minimums? wouldn't this solve the problem of having too many 300hr first officers? every pilot would have to find some kind of job, instructing or banner towing, in order to get there. Then, maybe the airlines would be something to look forward too.

Before the oil went crazy this summer, regional HR departments (Eagle, Comair) had people lining up around the corner for 20-25k/yr. jobs.

If that figure was 10-15k, it would still be the same.

That's why there's no pay.

As long as there are throngs of pilots who accept the low wages there is no reason to raise the salaries. Heck, I'm guilty as the next guy for taking the first year FO wage. The companies have no reason to raise salaries, that defeats their goal of making money. I really do wish there would be some way to do a work stoppage to show execs and the public that the pilot group deserves more. I think just talking about it helps get the word out that something needs to be done.

AND why cant there be a law that in order to fly passengers for an airline, both the First officer and Captain must have ATP minimums? wouldn't this solve the problem of having too many 300hr first officers? every pilot would have to find some kind of job, instructing or banner towing, in order to get there. Then, maybe the airlines would be something to look forward too.

Now there is a way that ALPA could be of some good use. Lobby congress to change the law that only those with ATP minimum qualifications could fly large Turbo-Props and any jet aircraft under 121 carriage. Compass has this requirement and all of their new hires are typed in the aircraft. This would take away the volatility of hiring and allow pilots to demand proper compensation. A guy right out of a pilot mill with a wet ticket really is in no position to demand 45-60K as a start, but a type rated ATP could.

because compass has good pay.......

I may be wrong about this but I believe when the union (ALPA for instance) and the airline management negotiate a pay raise for pilots it is up to the union to decide how that additional money is distributed across the pilot group.

I think it is because union leadership is comprised of basically senior captains at that airline who have the interests of themselves and other senior captains at heart then you will always end up with a "top heavy" payscale. Not to say this is absolutely universal, but it could be that your own union is betraying the junior pilots.

In a sense it is good to have something to look forward to as far as pay and QOL as you move up in seniority but the junior FOs should be active with the union to make sure everyone gets a piece of the action

I know this might sound harsh to some of you guys, but why haven't you done anything about it? Im just being realistic here, if there is anything you guys can do, then why not do it? is it that hard to organize pilots to do something collectively? get involved with the Union, raise those minimums to be an airline pilot, or anything to get their attention that pilots cant be treated this way. Im a CFI and i would have no problem with working until I met the requirements for ATP, and I think I'll get there before Ill actually have the opportunity to go to an airline. I'll probably just get my ATP in a seminole :) ... Now, that the hiring boom is over, most airlines will have higher minimums but its all going to change as soon as they need more pilots. And when that time comes around and they don't have any pilots, perhaps then you can ask for better pay.

I instructed till 135 mins and went fly freight.

Payed better.