sooooooooo what your saying is that i'm making (FO) 'on a per seat basis' the same as a legacy capt.

damn that just warms the soul but i still feel under paid

Its really hard to find a fair way to calculate pay across the board. If you flew a 757 that was configured for 50 seats would it still be great pay at 100/hr? In the early days pay was based on speed of the aircraft, then as jets came along it was weight. Now that we are in the financial era of aviation maybe we should get paid based upon total revenue the flight brings in? Or maybe a percentage of the cost to operate the flight (besides wages) as discussed above?

The longevity payscale is hurting everyone. If pilots could go from airline to airline without worrying about starting at base pay it would force the airlines to create a better environment to retain pilots.

NOT true.

That figure is the DIRECT operating cost and does not include many items that alter the actual cost of a pirticular flight.

Dig a little deeper.... Direct operating costs included all of that stuff.

It did not include the management, advertising, training dept or anything else... but it did include anybody who touched the plane, the passengers, or their tickets.... since they were DIRECTLY involved with the operation; proratred of course.

Unless they changed how they calculate and list it.......

That's my point exactly, so here's my shovel.

There are other costs involved even beyond those you admit aren't part of the equation to make this figure relatively useless like financing issues, so for all practical purposes refrencing this is pointless.

financing is part of the direct costs of operating the flight.

all of the administration, administrative costs, training, advertising and stuff like that is not part of the figure. If it directly relates to the aircraft, it IS part of that number. At least it used to be. Ask a friendly station manager next time you have the chance.... that number covers a ton of things... just as it also DOESN'T cover a ton of other things... but if you have that number, and have your fee for departure rate, you know more than most.

Hey, I hear Eagle is ditching their kitbags within the year... going to go to an aircraft library concept with an outside contractor responsible to update all onboard manuals.... cool idea, hope it works and catches on... I hate lugging mine around.

You're info is incorrect, but believe what you want. BTW, I've been led astray by more then one station manager before.

At any rate you asserted that ALL (see original post) costs are involved with this figure on the release and that simply isn't true. That was what I said in my original post to your statement and it still stands.

Perhaps "All costs associated with the flight" wasn't clear enough...
but, I thought I clarified it well after that....

Where did you hear this? I hope you're right but I haven't heard anything about this. What would happen to trip books? I would see people using charts less.

It was posted on the 'lounge from someone who just got back from recurrent and the fleet manager came in to talk about whats happening in the future. It would be freakin awesome if this happens, so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I guess people would just have to get used to taking the chart out of the binder and clipping it to the yoke. Thats a lot easier than lugging around 50+lbs of charts everywhere.

Has Eagle gotten Cat II certified yet? I imagine the aircraft library concept is a pipe dream of someone in Dallas. I hated lugging FM1 and the Three Jepp Binders around.

Life does get better... exentually you'll only need the red book, and one jepp binder... but, if this new idea they have comes around, I hope other carriers are quick to copy... I hate lugging the books.

My current airline "maintains" the jepps and company manuals as part of the aircraft library as you seem to be talking about. While it is very nice not to have to lug a flight bag around everywhere, there are drawbacks. Such as having to put up with other people taking out pages, and putting them back out of order or under the wrong airport. Or noticing that the charts are possibly a revision or two behind. Or dealing with pages that are falling apart because everyone uses them.

While lugging your own set around is a pain, it is nice to know that you are in charge of maintaining it, and nobody else can mess it up.

I would think the Red Book would be part of the a/c library.

Nothing beats delays at ORD and dispatch hounding you with ACARS msgs saying, "Please update your departure time you numbskull."

The point was that currently (if it hasn't changed) CA's only have to carry the red book, and one Jepp binder...

Or you could be on a permanent state of reserve and then carry everything! :)

And FO's only need to carry the blue book and one Jepp binder.

Don't forget all the applicable terminal charts(10-9 pages) for the sequence, even the ones not in your designated Jepp section.

and all the maps. both high and low.

Any news at Eagle regarding recalls in the near future?

Also, what's the situation with the American Connection ERJ's that were taken back from TSA? I'm assuming the birds are to stay at AE?

I got furloughed and in talking to a few people still at AE they are saying that they think recalls may happen as soon as February.

I don't think that this will be the case but then again I'm not there every day. I don't think people will get called to later next year and there's no saying that all 72 will be called at once. It might be 8, 9, 10 at a time?

I am personally not expecting to hear anything for a while. I'm okay with it though, I'm back at my old flying job and loving it. Even if AE called today I don't really think I'd go back just yet. Who knows though.

I think AE started using those TSA airplanes down in DFW? I remember seeing the blue tail down there.

Status quo on recalls for now, so none planned.

AC birds are back and flying throughout the system (where 145's fly, anyway).

Here's the newest rumor I heard...

I spoke with a captain friend of mine who said he was talking to the head of the Eagle MEC...or talked to someone who talked to the head? Anywho...

Eagle has apparently secured financing for 23 more CRJs...AMR wants AE to do the flying with them...110 upgrades...and all the furloughed guys back on line by February?

Sounds like crap to me but I'm wondering if anyone else has heard this...I know this CRJ talk has been going for a while but this one sounds like there is some closure....

Come on people.... options on airplanes don't last for 6 years....
They DID have options for up to 25 more CRJ's back in 2003... but I have NEVER heard of options being held open for this period of time... at least not without a payment to hold the options open, which would show up in company financial reports.... and it ain't there. The APA asked for AMR to show them the options back in 2007 when they were working on a TA to provide a stipend to any Eagle CA's that left to go to AA.... one of the things the APA insisted on was seeing that the options actually still existed. The TA subsequently fell apart when AMR couldn't/wouldn't produce the options...

so, this is just more BS to keep more people fro quiting a sinking ship.

Mason you do know AMR just got a ruling that 22 options are open.

I wish it was true but I help start that rumor.:D

This has already gone to an arbitrator. AMR claims that they had a "secret verbal agreement" with Bombardier to keep the options open. The arbitrator ruled that 22 of the options were indeed still valid even though they were "secret" and "verbal" and AMR had a duty to tell the APA yet intentionally did not. No penalty to the company, of course.

Bottom line is 22 options still available to exercise.

One can draw their own conclusions about the truthfulness of the "secret verbal" deal worth in the hundreds of million of dollars and the arbitrator's "motivation" for ruling as he did. I know what I think.

The preliminary bid results came out today. Looks like I get to stay in DFW for a little longer. We'll see.

extra buddy pass anyone?

Another one of your misguided and error filled anti-Eagle rants. Eagle isn't anywhere CLOSE to "sinking". I know you have a lot of angry baggage you're dragging around about Eagle behind you, but your credibility would improve DRAMATICALLY if you concentrated on more fact and less emotion.

The 22 CRJ options DO exist and apparently Bombardier wants AMR Eagle to come up with 15% for financing. Not sure if that has happened yet, but some say yes and some say no. El Presidente wants them and has been trying to get that financing, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Now, with that corrected..............you're free to get back to your hobby of Eaglebashing.

"you're free to get back to your hobby of Eaglebashing."

he really does make it a hobby doesn't he? I'm amazed sometimes.

What you think isn't that far off. When one combines this with the recent "7300 pilot floor" ruling and how that went, one can clearly see what happens when the interests of big business go against that of labor at the NMB.

One should apply the above two previous lessons to the future scope issue of mixed-class 76-seaters for AA feeders, so one doesn't have a coronary when once again, the interests of big business prevail.

Yes, when one repeatedly mixes targeted bias with an agenda, the foul odor usually wafts throughout the forum room to crinkle many noses.

:cool:

Again, the arbiration was between AMR and the APA. The issue under dispute was, did AMR still have the right per their agreement with the APA to exercise CRJ options. There was NO requirement that AMR PROVE they still even had any CRJ option contracts left, it was only to determine if AMR was still allowed to buy them ASSUMING they still had an option contract....

so, I repeat, find me a case of an option contract going for over 6 years without being exercised or bought back in, each of which would show as a line item on their expendatures...

This was about keeping the APA in fear of Eagle getting more "big jets" especially while AMR and APA are still in contract negotiations....

Lastly, the section of the APA contract detailing the exact percentage of flying that can be outsourced to regionals is still valid, and is one of the primary reasons Eagle began to shrink last year into this year. As AA is continuing to shrink, it would be impossible to "grow" Eagle beyond the fixed percentage. AMR has announced furthe reductions are expected in all flying in their most recent stockholders report...

Stop drinking the Koolaid, there are no CRJ options left, BUT since NOBODY has ever seen them, AMR could always pull some behind the scenes BS to obtain CRJ positions and claim they were their optioned positions, and prove otherwise....

It also would be cheaper to put the 135's back in sevice since they are paid for, or increase the usage on the 50 seat 145's. Frequency has been reduced to the point where flights are pretty full again... so they could easily add a few more 145 flights with existing airframes. So, run a paid for 135 full, or a financed CRJ half full, to 3/4 full... and have the expense of the second flight attendant with full benefits... if those last 20 seats aren't always filled, the extra expenses don't justify new planes.

Go read it again. The arbitrator ruled that in the contract dispute between AMR and the APA; that AMR has the right to exercise the CRJ options. The arbitrator did NOT rule if the option contract - between AMR and Bombardier - exists or not; and AMR has NEVER shown the "CRJ options" to anybody.

Those are the Facts. Sorry to bust your bubble.

Sorry, I bash all the regionals equally I think... but since Eagle is among, if not the largest, there is just more material to bash.....

:)

LOL !!!!!!!!!!..........you talk as if you're the god of AMR knowledge. You're an outsider (among both AMR and Eagle management) interpreting a ruling who then cooks up a reality to suit his beliefs.

Both Eagle management and the APA (unhappily) have acknowledged that AMR Eagle is free to acquire up to 22 more CRJ-700's.......that was the point that you attempted to refute (and failed). Feeble backpeddling and convoluted logic will not change that and it makes no difference if AMR "has" these options or "pulls something behind the scenes" to get them..................they CAN if they want.

Many of the 135's were intended to be parked, but were not and can still be. The ONLY thing stopping AMR Eagle is the financing. I'm sorry, but you've revealed YOUR "bubble" by your "sinking ship" wish, so anything Eagle related that comes off your keyboard is suspect at best and worthless at worst.

The bottom line (this IS AMR) is that Eagle is free to acquire those jets and THAT is the fact, which makes the remainder of your assertions on this subject meaningless propwash.

Which is the EXACT reason, few if any of your comments on this side of the forums should be considered valid. Obviously, it's the primary reason you come to this side of the forum.....to denegrate "us" to elevate "you".

There are much healthier ways of finding self-validation in life my friend then frequently going somewhere you feel people are beneath you, just so you can denegrate, attack and demoralize them and their existance to find personal satisfaction. Doing this only demonstrates a fundamental lack of self assurance.

Perhaps you should discuss this with a professional ?

;)

I spoke to PB today and he says that the options are on hold to see if APA gives in on the 76 seat scope and use the financing for those planes rather than the 22 CRJs. If not or negotiations take too long they will settle for the CRJs.... No given timeframe.:eek:

I'm sure PB would rather expend this capital on mixed-class 76-seaters then single class 70-seaters, but additional larger RJ's are certainly coming to this "sinking ship" one way or the other.

The big tuna's in the inner circle of upper AMR are playing their cards very tight scope-wise and PB is most likely not on the "need to know" timeline and strategy wise. Even if he was, he'd not divulge any knowledge he has of either. The fact that these options are on "hold" should say something though, as well as the fact that our little sinking ship isn't foundering anywhere near like some hope it does.

Continue on with confidence, my shipmates and listen not to drunken scurvy dogs of other ships.