Also let me just add that my ex-wife :o , (whose about to become my wife again :D ) is a school teacher w/two Master's degrees. She hopes to get on at the college level (where ever we may wind up) and eventually become a Provost of a university. This provides for additional financial stability for our family.

Btw, we have a 2yr old son and hope to have maybe 1 or 2 more children...but that's it!!!!!::p
atp

How'd ya guess? LOL

Hired in 99 left in 05....still an FO with no hope for upgrade. Really fun being basically an IOE instructor to the Flushbacks yet still in the right seat and getting paid crap. Another reason I said adios.

Look, I understand that folks need to start somewhere and about the desire to get an "airline job", but the fact that people are willing to start out a career (in today’s industry) at minimum wage (just about) is what hurts the profession. It cheapens it, IMHO. You would think that someone trying to make a living in life would see the starting pay and elect to pass on the job. Say I was a still in college or looking for a career change and wanted to be a Widget Maker or whatever. Doing my research of that job market (as everyone should before such endeavor) I find that all the starting jobs out there (almost across the board) paid minimum wage. I think I would definitely pass on that career pursuit.

What is it about being an "airline pilot" that makes people still pursue it? Is it so they can brag to the chics and their friends of how they fly airplanes for a living, or that they just love flying that much, or that they get to wear the shinny pressed uniform (which is about all you get to show for it at the end of an airline career now days)?

Yeah, pay was low a decade or more ago at then commuter carriers, but it was a different industry then. You did your 3 - 5 years got the time and got hired at a "real" airline that (then) offered an excellent living. Oh the times they a change. The industry is slowing becoming a sweat shop. You take a job at that crappy "regional" now and not only is there job insecurity, but you might but stuck at that regional for a LONG time wondering if and when you will lose that job to another carrier who's pilots are willing to wh0re themselves out.

I wouldn't call it a high risk job at all. If you call being an airline pilot a high risk job then you probably should be evaluating your flying abilities. The aircraft these days are so automated, forgiving, and backup proofed that a monkey could fly it. The only risk to it is when you have someone upfront that makes poor decisions, and that is why the job is worth better pay. Because it requires experience to make those decisions and the route to gaining that experience and skill as a proficient pilot is deserving of a good paycheck. And experience is not gained at some fly-by-night training school that gives you an FO ticket at 250 hours or whatever.

Sorry about the rant.

Quaileman
 

Qm,

I left the pursuit of the airlines three years ago. I couldn't see throwing away anymore years on a hopeless effort. I run my one business now. People get upset because you are blaspheming the religion of aviation by bringing to light what most know to be true but don't want to think about. Most would rather live in denial.

SkyHigh

Suggestion
 

As a friendly suggestion I would leave flying as a dream or else your renewed wife could become an ex again. Now is not the time to start a family and an aviation career. Why don't you just let it go and stay here with me and post to ease the pain?

SkyHigh

ATP Wannabe
 

ATP,

It really is a low risk job. You are safer sleeping in the right seat of an RJ than stepping into the shower at home.

SkyHigh

What??
 

What problem is there? If you leave UPS to fly they you will be committing yourself to a life of poverty, loneliness and frustration. 75K is more than what you could ever hope to earn as a regional pilot. Logic says to stay where you are and continue to fly your 150.

SkyHigh

Money is material, happiness is priceless.

Yeah, I have some friends there and they are optimistic they will upgrade in 4-5 years. Ah well.

Anyway, I sincerely think your outlook on life would be totally different had you left in 2003 for Skywest, XJET, Chautauqua, heck even Mesa because you'd be a CA right now and might possibly have a shot at a Major. You timed it badly, and I feel your frustration, however I don't think you should be trying to convince people to get out of aviation just because you missed one of the largest hiring phases at the regionals.

I myself am at a stagnent regional and most likely will get out and go do something else (maybe freight or frac) if I haven't upgraded in 3 years. Even so, our 2nd and 3rd year FO's make in the $40's so life could be worse.

Every once in a while those "automated" aircraft do catch fire!

You said it yourself: "every once in a while...". I wouldn't call that high risk. Do you really think aviation would be a mode of mass transit if it where "high risk"? I would consider high risk as flying over airspace with AAA and SAMs looking to shoot you down.

Let's not kid ourselves guys and try boosting our egos or impressing people with a distortion of the job.

I will say, however, that the job requires skill and experience to deal with said emergencies, and that is why the job deserves a good check.

Money
 

Money and happiness are relative to each other. It is a fact.

SkyHigh

I was on Welfare my first year on the job!!!!!

It is not a fact. It is an opinion. My opinion is that money and happiness being relative is but a sick illusion played on too many people by society. There are plenty of 'simple folk' that are poorer than you or myself that are happier than either of us. Of course, this has been just an opinion, not fact.

Keep your UPS driving job!
 

You may have missed out on a major airline job. I would highly recommend to you "Do not give up your UPS Driver position to go and fly at a regional." You will be broke and your life style will change for the worse. Retire as a truckdriver and fly on the side in your C150 or even fly part time Charter or Corporate. Forget the Majors. What you have read about in the past regarding payscales and great life style is no longer. Its a changing industry that its simply a job not a career. May I simply say you make more money then FO's at my Major Airline job. Good luck in your search. your personnal happiness is what will get you through life. May that be flying or driving?

It is a Fact
 

Studies have been done. 20/20 did a show on it last Friday. It is a fact. Money does aid in happiness and the lack of definitely adds to misery. Ask those simple folk if they would prefer a better way of life and I am confident that they all would accept. It takes money to raise children, provide for your parents, prepare for retirement, take care of you or loved ones who become sick, pay for college, buy safe adequate transportation and housing, Help the needy. Money is beyond important it is essential. It allows us to to good things for ourselves and our friends and families. The lust for money and the material possessions that it can provide is negative, but money in itself is just the opposite, it is the key to a better life. In my estimation it takes almost 100K to properly fund a family of four in most suburban areas.

SKyHigh

SkyHigh & directbears
 

SkyHigh:

Got the support of my wife-to-be. She is all for it. She is fully aware of the pitfalls of the industry and risks that are involved. We made the decision together.

Also, disagree w/you. Money and material possession itself doesn't bring happiness.

directbears:

a. Not suffering from shiny jet syndrome.
b. Don't plan on making the initial salary through my entire career.
c. We have multiple income streams.
d. Chased the skirts in my 20's & early 30's. Those days are long gone.

I enjoy flying b/c it is a vocation that I chose to pursue as a child. It is a goal deferred. You see, I will not limit myself to the regional airline industry. I have made excellent contacts here in Naples, FL. The tarmacs & ramps at the FBO's here are JAMMED with corporate and other aircraft of all types during the season.

Keeping my options open however.

atp

The Wife
 

The wife may not realize what your intended path truly included. You probably don't even fathom the hardships and challenges that you face. Especially if you are planning to have more children how are you going to explain why you were in LAX when the baby comes? When she is sick a phone call from DCA really will not help her. And if things go south for her career how are you going to provide for your family?

SkyHigh

Multiple income streams. Not to sound like an a$$, but...what part didn't you catch?:D

And you know SkyHigh, I probably don't know what challenges await me. However, Denise & I have dealt with many life altering challenges (death of child five days before he was to be born; divorce, etc.) in our few years together. Personally I believe with God on our side...we'll make it.

atp

All that aside a family needs a dad who is at home. Happy families need security and stability. 40 isn't old but it is too old to start out in aviation with the responsibilities that you have. You missed your chance don't risk what you have.

SkyHigh

I see this quickly becoming a p!ssing match and that is not my intention. I am not here (like someone else previously said) to discourage anyone here that is already in the industry form staying. That is up to you and I really don’t give a sh!it what you decide to do. My personal experience was not a pleasant one, but that is just one person’s experience, and I chose to share it. I also intend to discourage anyone from throwing their career down the crapper by going to Eagle. However, I will say that the folks that are selling themselves and the profession short by taking the job “no matter what” only hurts the profession and destroys what many before them have worked to achieve.

To respond to you directly atp:

1) I didn’t say you were suffering from sjs. I just posed a question as to why people sell the profession short and sjs could be a hypothesis.

2) I hope it works out for you. I REALLY do. I failed (or the industry failed me) and hope the best for anyone willing to make the sacrifices to achieve their goal. Just to make it clear however, the thing that sealed it with me was the fact that I see the writing on the wall. The industry as a whole (IMHO) is being cheapened. Blame it on the LCCs or the folks willing to work for min wage or whatever, but it is happening. I don’t really know, but I really do believe that the industry is going the way of the truck driver or bus driver. Before you start in on me about truck diving or bus driving, my Dad is a truck driver and I respect him, but it is not a respectable living. That is a subject for a different thread.

3) My wife and I do as well. When you throw a child into the mix (I had one about 8 months ago, about when I quit flying) that changes things. If you have a child and are still attempting the biz then kudos to you. I will say that you will have some challenges ahead, but I hope it works out for you.

4) Not sure why you stuck that in there, but good for you. Hope you got it out of your system because you are in for a disappointment with the hags you will probably be flying with in your career. Not all, but most.

I have been reading here for a while and registered so I can throw a little support to Skyhigh and Directbears. I absolutely loved flying. When I was four my grandfather asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I said a pilot. I always played with those little balsa airplanes when I was a kid. I started R/C flying when I was 12 and would work summer jobs in high school to afford models. I always went outside when I heard an airplane fly over so I could see what it was. I took lessons at 15 and soloed at 16 ( or 16 and 17-too long ago to remember). All I ever dreamed about was flying, it was the love of my life. Three years after college and several careers later I went to flight school to become a professional pilot and I excelled. Not only was I doing what I loved I was damn good at it. All my examiners told me I was a natural and one of the best they had ever seen.

The reason I went through all that is because I want to establish that flying was my passion in life and all I ever wanted. This is directed to those who say money doesn't matter because you are having "fun". Flying for a living after a while is not fun. When I started it was, I was flying mapping in a single pilot environment. I flew all over the country and got to see lots of cool things. Then I started flying freight. Me against the weather, still fun but more like a job. But it was challenging and kept me on my toes. Now I am right seat in a large turboprop, and well the thrill is gone. Mostly I just struggle not to be bored to death. Low pay, horrible hours, always at the companys mercy. Tell me you are having fun at the end of a 14 hour day with a 5 am show the next day. When you get in from a rotation you are so tired you have to sleep most of your time off away. It becomes dull, boring, and repetitive, very repetitive. I can't remember the last time I got a thrill from flying.

To achieve all this I have spent the last 6 years moving across the country chasing job after job. Move for a better run, move for an upgrade, etc. I have not been in one place for more than a year. I have no life, no girlfriend, and all my current friends are friends from work, I never see my old friends. I can't afford deep attachments because I never know when I will pull up stakes and move again, it is an ever changing industry. I knew this getting in, but when I signed on there was a hope for a better future. Now I don't know what is in store, and having 31 years left in this industry I know I can't stay where I am until retirement. Maybe a different airline, maybe a different type of flying would get the joy back. To be honest though I am tired of starting over. Just keep in mind, all of you who love flying, flying for fun and flying for a living are worlds apart. Once you get close to your 30's and see all your friends with nice houses, nice cars, a wife and kids you will start wondering if living like a pauper is worth it just to fly an airplane.

Starting wages
 

Directbears:

I never viewed your comments as derogative or discouraging. In addition, I learned early on that this is a forum where ideas, beliefs, and experiences are shared. Also, never viewed our exchanges as a p!ssing match.


Couldn't agree with you more in terms of someone "taking the job" no matter what it pays. It does destroy what other before have worked so hard to put in place. On the other hand, although you have different starting salaries for different airlines and those starting salaries are based on criteria set by each airline, it is the same with starting salaries in the field of airport management. Salaries are based on what the Airport Board, Airport Authority or County Commissioners determine what it will be. I'm sure there are some ancillary economic factors thrown in but...I'm guessing.


I understand that you, SkyHigh, and others have had a not so favorable experience than others. I, for one, certainly appreciate the advise and the fact that you are sharing your experiences b/c when and if a situation arises, I can always think back to what exchanges took place on this forum and use that information to help out in my situation.

atp