Bigflya

SkyHigh,

I do agree with much of what you put out. At the beginning of this thread guys were bouncing other professions starting salaries and hours worked vs regional pay. Then guys who have done the office jobs chimed in and said they were glad to give up the office for the cockpit for 1/2 of what they made or less. They complained about 70 hour work weeks etc. When an airline guy adds all the time he spends not getting paid while "on the job" (ie crew lounge, commuting, RON in a hotel) then the hours may be similiar, just less stressful. As long as guys have the atitude that less $$ is OK because the stress level is not the same then wages will never improve. In the regionals constant cut-throat bidding war to win the majors feeder contracts the only negotiable cost is labor and it seems to continually be sent lower on the guise that we will lay you off if we lose this contract. The pilots are continually buying this crap from mgmt. I say stand your ground even if it costs your job. Let's face it, there are lot of other things people can do and make $20-$30k. It's been said here that flying seems to be becoming more of a poorly paid hobby to many. They make just enough to keep the hobby afloat. I 100% agree with that as many here says they will do anything to stay flying and away from corporate America and I guess that includes continued pay/benefit cuts. When one is single and starting out they can eat Ramen noodles, drink Old Mil Light, and have three roommates in an apt with few problems while they build time and make $20k. But when one gets older and has a family that salary no longer cuts it. It is great that regional guys build the time to eventually apply to the majors but they must not see what is happening at the majors right now means more time for them at the regionals and at the lower pay they most eagerly initially accepted. The glory of the majors is not really there anymore. The legacy's are either in bankruptcy or have been and will not be hiring for years to come except one,CAL. So that's one hiring and five not (AA,DAL,UAL,NW,USAir). Now everyone's praising the LCC's as gods when five years ago people were totally discounting them. Well JB has put out that they are only hiring for the E190's right now and the starting is about $37k. They are also reducing their Airbus monthly bids until the holiday season. All that was in a letter to their pilots. A gal in the People Dept at SW just called a friend of mine yesterday and said that they are no longer interviewing those without the type because they need to fill classes now and cannot wait for them to get the type. She only called him because he had a friend with great conections there that was pulling for him. That's another $8k that must now be spent on the opportunity to get an interview. BTW, that's about 15-20% of your 2-3 yr regional guys salary. FedEx is about a one yr process right now from scheduling a meet and greet to class up and at UPS one needs deep inside connections to get an interview. What I'm saying is that the majors are not the low hanging fruit that they once were and with few jobs open right now you will be stuck at your regional job for longer than you thought. So before you think that low wage is only acceptable because its temporary think twice, because it may not be. Good luck.

Bigflya

Also, to continue my rant. Why is it when one points out the shortcomings and negatives of this business do they get torched by most and thrown to the side?

atpwannabe

quaileman:

Couldn't agree with you more. I have an aviation education and spent most of my working career outside of aviation and HATED IT . Working M-F, 8-5, has its ups and downs. Dealing with all the bu((sh!t about submitting reports, and just dealing with a whole lot of personalities just wore me out. I'm sick of corporate America.

Now that I have a chance to pursue the career I always wanted in the first place, I not going to let anything stop me.

atp

fosters

I worked Long Call days, basically reserve where you sit at home and have 2 days to report if they need you. We're never needed, so I never fly, and then I pick up trips on the days that I'm released and get paid for them over and above my monthly guarantee (I get paid the days' credit and the LC credit of 4:30). So less work and more pay. Works for me. In addition, if you pick up trips out of open time they are paid at 1.5 pay. The downside right now is there isn't much open time flying, because we are fat on pilots. However there is still a lot of action for trip trades, but that's only 1:1 pay.

If we overblock on ANY leg, and underblock on the rest, we still get the over block pay for that leg, and block pay for the rest. There are days I overblock one leg by almost 2 hours (wx delay sitting on the ground) and that's above and beyond our credit for the month. A typical month will have 5-10 hours of extra time this way.

Also, we have duty and trip rigs. For every 2 hours of duty time, we are guaranteed 1 hour flight pay. For every 4 hours of trip time (used to be 3.5 hours, oh well) we are guaranteed 1 hour of flight pay.

So a 4-day that has has 80 hours of TAFB we're guaranteed to credit 20 hours. If the same 4-day has 48 hours of duty time, we're guaranteed 24 hours of pay. Now, if you block >24 hours, you get that, but if you block, say, 18 hours then you still get 24 hours pay, and get another 6 hours of credit.

That's how I turned 55 hours of FAR block time into 102 hours of credit time. And I still ended up with 16 days off . After that, however, I just bid for normal lines crediting 95 hours and lots of per diem.

For me, I am 24, so I wanted some QOL while I am still young enough to be able to afford taking my time. If I haven't upgrade by the time I am 27 I will most likely get out and find another job (be it small freight or whatever) for the PIC time. Who knows.

I agree, upgrading quicker is definately worth it. That being said, if most of the people leaving Colgan have 4-5 years with the company, that is no different than here. There are some people that have been here much longer, but they are staying put, not trying to get out.

directbears

Including accepting low pay/benies/QOL?

I think this is what quaileman was round-about saying hurts the profession, but maybe I just misread his post.

I agree with some to most of what skyhigh says, and from what I gleaned from quaileman's post, I totally agree with what he said. I loved flying and miss it sometimes, but I found myself stuck in a semi-low paying regional job with NO potential upward movement (in fact steady downward movment was/is the norm there) and needed to take care of my family. I opted out of the airline biz after 8 ½ years in it to pursue more secure and economically feasible work outside of aviation.

I think the folks that will do ANYTHING to get that "airline pilot" job, are cheating themselves, the profession, and their family (if they are at that point in their lives).

Do I miss it? Do I think about getting back in? Yes, but I am not willing to do that to my family (the large sacrifices) and choose not to be one of those who perpetuate a cheapened profession by accepting substandard wages and benies.

Just my 2 cents.

buffalopilot

How can a new hire negotiate pay, maybe the guys who are already there should open their mouths and get the pay up and quit complaining about the new guy taking the crap pay, they do not have any other way in!

fosters

You'd be surprised with what the unions turn down. At my company, managment approached the union to make probationary pay come down from $24/hr to $15/hr! This was on a 50 seat a/c. They flat out said no. Management was asking for this because they were bidding on NWA flying, and wanted to be "competitive". The union didn't buy it.

fosters

Were you at Eagle? What time frame?

buffalopilot

the only cure for the industry is for the standards to be a pilot to increase. Make it more difficult to get pilot training. We need to implement high prerequisites to become a pilot. These days it seems any idiot can say "Hey I want to be a pilot" slap down $100000 and right seat in an airliner. Rediculous!! I am in the medical field, we have tons of prereqs to get in, need to meet standards that why pay is good.

atpwannabe

I may not be as informed about the industry as much as some of you guys out there, being that I'm not a pilot...yet, however, given the current economic situation in terms of the pay...there is nothing that I can do at this point to affect change. Once I get in though, that's a different story, but keep in mind, those of us who are attempting to enter the field have to start somewhere. That's just how it is right now.

I agree with SkyHigh. The pay isn't where it should be. In addition to pay being based on revenues and other issues...whatever happen to the fact that it is a high risk job.

Oops at 37,000ft ain't worth a damn!!!


atp