Are there any PROFESSIONAL pilots left?
 

PROFESSIONALISM: Meticulous adherence to undeviating courtesy, honesty, and responsibility in one's dealings with customers and associates plus a level of excellence that goes over and above the commercial considerations and legal requirements.

First of all, please allow me to set this up...I've been flying for 30 years, in private, and then corporate aviation. I've had a very successful career in the Navy, and then in the outside world, so successful in fact that I was able to retire about a year ago. After a few months of retirement, I started giving some thought to applying to a regional airline, because I truly wanted to experience PROFESSIONAL flying. Although I flew for a corporate flight department that was run very professionally, I truly wanted to experience 121 flying.

I was lucky enough to get hired, and am truly glad I made this decision. However, I must admit that the one, overwhelming surprise, has been the lack of PROFESSIONALISM I see from my fellow flight crewmembers, across the board.

Guys and Girls, being a professional is not contingent on what you are being paid. Being professional is not contingent on who an associate works for. Being a professional does not depend on how much you like your management. You are either a professional, or you are not.

I am an ALPA member, and I see quite a number of my fellow members with the "Professional Union, Professional Pilot" stickers on their kit. That being said, I also have friends that fly for other airlines and for corporate flight departments, many of which are far more professional than many pilots who profess to be professionals.

Like integrity, professionalism is something YOU and only YOU get decide whether you will live it. Also like integrity, its all or nothing. It is simply not possible to act professionally towards some pilots or coworkers an unprofessionally towards others. Sorry folks, simply can't be done. You choose to lie, cheat or steal, and you have given up your integrity. You play silly games, block radio calls, and turn your back on fellow pilots, you have given up your professionalism. For ever. End of statement.

Call me an stupid, but I for one believe that WE can turn this industry around. But folks, here's a muppet news flash for you...we can't do it without the support of the public we fly for. If we continue to argue on whether we like to wear hats while we look slovenly in public, if we want to argue whether or not we deserve tips, if we are seen and heard *****ing about our wages and work conditions in public, and if we want to stick knives in the backs of other pilots because they don't work for a company that conforms to our way of thinking, we will continue to lose the support of the public.

Want a simple test of your professionalism? How many kids on your flights look up to you, and want to do what you're doing? How many people in the terminal see you and say "gee, that's a sharp looking pilot". Guys and Girls, say what you want, but if we continue to act like bus drivers, our wages and work conditions will continue to slide, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

Hopefully you did not join this profession to get rich. Hopefully you did not join hoping that every other pilot would join your union, or think exacly like you. Hopefully you did not join because you liked a particular uniform. If you did any of these, you are incredibly stupid. Me, I joined firstly because I love flying, and will until the day I die. If I have to work two jobs to continue flying, so be it. If I have to wear a stupid hat, I'm OK. The second reason I signed on was to fly with some professionals. Help me believe that I made the right decision.

Great post! You hit the nail right on the head.

You made the wrong decision! You should have stayed retired. Maybe, one day, the industry will turn around, but now it sucks. As far as professionalism, you get what you pay for...sadly

I'm not a "professional" pilot yet, but I 100% agree and try to hold myself to this definition in my current profession. Well said.

I've only been flying "professionally" for ten months. I am a young pilot and I worked very hard to get where I am. I am only an FO and I have a lot to learn but I see captains older and more senior than I that cant wash their clothes, tie a tie, shine shoes, curse and argue in front of passengers etc. etc... I'm thinking at the same time "how can anyone who has worked so hard to get where they are act and dress that way?" Yes, I work for a crappy company. Who doesn't... but that doesnt mean you cant dress to impress. What are passengers thinking when they see a pilot dress and act this way? Especially the ones that are scared to fly or the one just looking for a reason to complain to the FAA.

Its funny I was talking about the same thing with another coworker today. Sometimes it is just beyond belief.

Well said! That, and the fact that there is a large group of self-entitled 300 hour pilots willing to stab eachother in the back to get that well paying job...

about the only thing 300 hour pilots are doing now is washing 172s at the local airport. It's called supply and demand, nothing to do with pilots stabbing each other in the back.

I agree but in the corp world you don't fly as much so I wouldn't say it's harder. Yea at the airlines it's all done for you, and now that I'm flying pt91 again I realize how easy we had it. But at the same time you're not going to fly a jet 80 hours per month flying pt 91 and have to deal with delays and pax and long 12 hour days. When you take all things into consideration there are more things to complain about as an airline pilot....

As a pilot who has also worked for Part 135 and 121, I will try to respond to this.

First, I completely agree that there is a lack of professionalism in aviation today. I see it almost every day. The un-tucked or un-ironed shirts, bad language, not shaving, etc is not the image we need to present. I am not proud to say that I have taken part in some of these myself.

I will also say that there are a lot of extremely professional pilots in the 121 world. Men and Women that come to work everyday, completely prepared, despite anything that may be happening outside of work. They are polite to the passengers and fun to be around. I fear they are less and less, but they are still here.

Now my rebuttal to this. The unfortunate truth to the matter is that it is next to impossible to act professionally when you are treated like a child. Treated like you are completely expendable. I found it much easier to be professional while flying Charter. Management and scheduling valued me as an employee and weren't constantly threatening my job. The passengers were happy when they showed up to the airport and greated us while they were getting onboard. I can not imagine not slipping up every now and again with how we are treated by the airline. If they want professionals, they should treat us as such.

Having done both corporate and 121 flying I would say that the flying is definately different, as are schedules, lifestyles, and situations encountered. It's not to say that one is more difficult than the other. They are equally challenging and equally rewarding, both in their own ways.

There are some 121 jobs which are easier and you get treated better by management. There are some corporate jobs which are easier and you get treated better by management. There are some airlines that require high time because they can, some because they have to. There are some corporations that require high time because they can, some because insurance mandates this. Right now corporations seem to be more desirable because people feel they are treated better. That's not always the case.


I think the original poster was describing exactly what is happening here. As opposed to cutting each other down because we fly different types of iron to different places and different times with more or less people aboard, why don't we support each other. We are all pilots, some have chosen a particular road because it was easier, some because they wanted to.

Additionally, regarding the those "300 hour" pilots, technically aren't they pilots too? Did they not get the same job you did (some of you), but with 300 hours? What does that say about your skill, your professionalism, your personality? I know, an overly simplified and very crude comparison (not examining external factors of course) but it got you to think about it anyway ;). However, at one point in time, every pilot that has ever had 300 hours and wanted to be an airline pilot might have very well given a body part to get that airline job with 300 hours. I have flown with many pilots, some with more hours some with less, but I've learned something valuable from them all.

If some feel that safety was at issue, I then ask howcome nothing was done about it? As pilots, we have extreme confidence in ourselves, however, the only confidence that matters is that expressed by our passengers towards us. And that includes far too many aspects to list. But an important cue for most is how we treat those around us both personally and professionally. If you have problems with a person, be a friend, be a coach, be an ally...in the end the results are far more positive than simply being a critic.

I am by no means singling out people or groups, offense is not the intent, and this is not the proverbial "why can't we all just get along," but like the original poster said, we're professionals, and I guess that's what I took it to mean. And yes, I once had 300 hours too, but that was a long time ago.

Exactly and it's not an odd concept. The problem is that the airlines operate differently then a charter/corp does, where they don't view their pilots as assets because we are not critical to customer or owner's experience. We make a left and shut the door. That is why there is ALPA and many other unions to deal with that aspect. Otherwise if it was up to airline management we would all be working min wage short staffed working 6 days a week. This is very hard for pilots coming from the corp/charter world to understand that's why there is the general stigma that airline pilots are a bunch of lazy complainers. It's all about who you know in the corp world anyways.

Yea because at the king air you'll be PIC.............. think about it. The rest is not really true, give me a corp job flying a G5 or King Air about a few tmies per month vs 80 hours on 10 days off per month. As far as hiring, it's not because of airlines it's because there are many pilots available from the general aviation world. Who would you hire? A pt 91 or a pt 121 pilot for a pt 91 job?? And vice versa.

It should not matter the company you fly for or how you are treated. Professionalism is a personality trait. Professionalism is doing the right thing when nobody is watching. This isn't limited to your career either. If you try to throw something away and missed the trash can do you pick it up and try again or just leave it for somebody else? Do you say thank you when somebody holds the door for you? Just do the right thing not because people are watching but because it's the RIGHT THING to do. There are unprofessional people in every industry. It's just easier to notice the unprofessional airline pilots because of our public visibility.

I respectfully disagree

121 major/legacy and 121 regional are sadly, more often than not, different breeds. There are, however, exceptions.
* If I were a CP for a corp flight dept, I'd look first at those with corp experience (91), then 121 major/MILITARY, 135 charter/freight, and finally 121 regional. More than likely in that order, but my opinion is admittedly inexperienced.

I definitely agree... I've only been flying 121 for the same amount of time and have noticed the lack of pride a lot of people have for their self and career. On my first IOE trip infact I was told by a senior captain "why are your shoes so clean, get some scuffs on those things" I know he was only kidding but I think there are a lot of guys that are trying to rebel for whatever reason. Maybe their dream didn't pan out the way they wanted. Another example I've found is of people not wanting to do what seems to be another persons job. People just standing around the plane watching while some older lady is barely making it to the front of the plane to get to her wheelchair with no help (than later saying it was the person with the wheelchairs job).
On the other hand there are a lot of people out there going the extra mile, smiling and thanking passengers at every chance. The same ones are keeping their appearance and uniform looking good and not doing it because they have to, because they have pride in what they do.

You hire the person not company they worked for. I know several from my regional that are as professional as one can be.

Maybe it has something to do with schedules etc. It's hard to show up to work everyday with a nice fresh shirt when you're on day 4 of a 28hr trip with early shows, late finishes, and almost no time to rest or get food. Starting 3pm one day then 3:30am the next is enough to make anyone look worn out and beat down. I always try to look my best but then again I'm young and single. I don't see how the older gents manage to keep at it. I'll back the statement that you get what you pay for, or rather you get what you deserve. If they treat you like a child, screw with your schedule constantly, bend your contract, etc. it's easy to have your attention focused in the wrong place and not on the pax and image you present to them.

I can see how those issues would be a factor. good point

ohhhh ok. I see your point, so I guess it's not about anything other than to call regional pilots useless. And that we don't deserve to drive Richy Rich up in the sky.. I see. Well thanks, not good enough for you corp but good enough for the masses..

you asked me in what order i would LOOK, and i told you. i never said the word "useless", or "undeserving" in my post. you did that. always on defense.....

i wrote "finally regional" b/c it seems some regional pilots tend to lack with customer service abilities, and that is what is most stressed in a corp aviation environment. instead of giggling about blocked radio calls or jumpseat wars, the focus is on the owner/operator/pax....where it should be.

it had nothing to do with stick and rudder. try a touch of professionalism (what the thread was about in the first place) and objectivity.

Post again in a year and tell us how professional you feel.

Have you ever looked at the official scab list? There are four pilots on there from a regional carrier and the remaining 5,907 or so are all major airline pilots. Stop spreading entirely accurate information.

great response!

Ah, so many points to ponder...

Labbats, I'd be glad to post again in a year, but my professionalism is not in question, so I doubt that another year and few hundred hours of flying and another pay raise will have any impact at all on how I look, act, or treat my fellow pilots and coworkers.

As for the attitude of "you get what you paid for" I would only hope that we as a group can realize how dangerous that attitude is. The guys and gals sitting in the big offices making the decisions don't pay us what we're worth or respect us, so we in turn become unprofessional in appearance and deed, because "they get what they pay for". They in turn see unprofessional pilots asking for additional benefits and raises, which they can't justify based on their impression of our performance. It is a viscious circle.

Who you are, how you treat others, and how professional you are is solely a function of your own mettle, not a result of how others treat you. It is a true professional who can remain sharp and focused in spite of being underpaid or ill treated. This is how we win contract negotiations and secure the trust of the flying public, not by playing silly reindeer games with one another.

If I'm asked why my shoes are so shiney by an "old salt", I'd probably just say "because I'm proud of what I do, and I want to look proud". Again, how I look and act is not a reflection on my pay, or my company management, or what mood I'm in that day. It is a reflection of who I am. That does not change.

See you in a year!

CP of a corporate department most likely would hire in this order... at least my CP would

135 pilots, 91 Pilots, military, 121.... (notice there is no distinction on what type of 121 because corp world doesn't keep up with the politics of 121 world, we just visit APF for entertainment:rolleyes:)

but then again i guess your post was if you were CP

Short answer, YES, there are plenty of professionals left in this business, Most, not all, of the guys I work with are true professionals. The industry as a whole, or hole if you will, there are few.
Cheers,
WG

It should also be mentioned that the customer experience/professionalism shown by pilots is directly proportional to the environment of professional aviation. Back in the day there use to be glass plates and silverware. Now there's home made jean shorts and camo on a $49 ticket. When lowering the quality to increase the quantity as well as market demographic it's almost impossible to maintain the amount of professionalism once shown. Use to be that pilots were regarded by the public as highly skilled professionals that were admired by all. Now that we've been kicked down a few notches what's expected? I arrive at a gate and instead of being greeted with smiles and parents wanting to introduce their children to you because you're so inspiring I'm now met with a "do we really have to fly in such a small plane?", "why are we delayed my last flight went through weather?", "you people think that just because you're wearing a uniform you can cut in line", and so on. Due to the vast expansion of aviation not only has the quality of the service been deteriorated but so has the quality of the pax. The mentality has been changed from "I'm so privileged to ride on an aircraft" to "maybe if I complain hard enough I'll get comped something". We give an inch and they take a yard. The people don't respect us because they see our profession as nothing more than a bus driver now. They think technology does it all. It's easy because we are professionals. While unfortunate incidents it's events like Sioux City and Sully in the Hudson that remind the world exactly why we're there and the massive burden we're capable of carrying.

I dress as best as possible everyday and yet I was never treated as well and with such respect as I was after Sully took a drive in the drink. Go figure.

Professionalism isn't something that comes from the outside. It's internal. I don't care what the traveling public thinks because they don't care right up to the point where the **** hits the fan. I care about how I proform my job. I care about how I fly. I even care about the appearance that I show to the world. I will proform my job to the best of my abilities. I won't let the performance of others to dictate the the job I do. My CEO may be a cheat, my co pilot may be grumpy, my cabin crew can be bickering, and my profession may be on the slide, but I will be a professional. Not because of the customer, but because I expect it from myself.

huh? Where do you get your experience to be able to make these sweeping generalizations? By looking around an internet forum? If you've noticed, you've put down regional pilots on every one of your post in this thread, where is your experience to back that up?

i have microsoft flight sim X.

I haven't put down anybody. I just said what I think pertaining to corp aviation selection. FL450 had an opinion too about a hiring order his CP would use. If you didn't notice, 121 was on the bottom of that list too. If you want to take that as an insult, I suppose that's your right. Frankly I don't ever care what you have to say anyhow.

I too have worked both 121, 135 and 91. I have operated my own two aircraft flight department Part 91 and I have to say the level of proffessionalism I believe should be upheld in the aviation/pilot community is equal among the all types of pilots (91,121,135). I have also met pilots in all three world which I am embarrassed to say share the same profession as I do. There were some guys at Business Express that were complete nightmares and also some guys in the 135/91 world that make Charles Manson look like a choir boy. That is the human nature side of what we do and a true professional deals with all personality types and operates as safe and effeciantly as he can with what he has to work with. The point is that professional pilots need to be helping each other out not stabing each other in the back. As for the union non union comparison I have to say I like non union more. I believe that I am strong enough in the cockpit and with my negotiating skills to better my self well beyond what a union can/has. I also believe the greatest aspect of union pilot group is that the union saves pilots from there piers more then management (although managemnet sounds like a nightmare if you only read APC). Good luck to all.

:confused::confused: Um what the deuce:confused:

:) I was asked what kind of experience I have :)

Professionalism
 

It is difficult to retain a sense of professionalism when your employers and the rest of the world treats you like dirt. Professionalism comes from within but after being paid less than a gas station attendant for years and given less respect then one it begins to feel ridiculous to put much pride into your work.

Skyhigh

Professionalism
 

Professionalism is an attitude, a way of life – not something you turn-on or off depending on the circumstances. Many pilots wrongly believe that if they got paid more money or if they got a ton of admiration from the flying public, then their attitude (professionalism) would change. However, it does not matter whether you fly (or wash) a C 172 or command a B747; your professionalism [or lack thereof] will be evident by how you view yourself, not how others view you.

As for the challenges imposed by this profession (late hours, early get-ups, long days, etc.), I would hope everybody did their homework and knew what they were getting into. Otherwise, there is nobody but yourself to blame for the disappointment. But understand that regardless of the challenges, they do not give any of us “Carte Blanche” to be unprofessional.

The public doesn't care about the pilots. They care about travelocity airfare searches sorted by cheapest flight.

The managements job is to get the most work out of pilots for the least amount of money. They screw with your schedule, lower your pay & benefits, but as long as we are still "professional" they will see an opportunity to abuse you a little more. How far are you willing to be pushed before you let things slide a little?

At a certain point, you will start to not care as much anymore. As a junior shiny-jet FO, you will soon realize this.

I think all pilots should show up to work wearing the clothing from the second job they have to hold to make ends meet. Then when the kids see the pilot dressed in his McDonalds uniform, they will say "dang, I don't want to be a pilot like that fool". In a decade or so, we will be a valuable commodity again.

I couldn't agree more.

call me stupid but the definition of professional means you get paid to do something.

Pay me like a professional and i'll act like one.

Every time I hear somebody complain about inexperienced three hundred hour pilots, I remember that our military puts 300 hour pilots in the right seat of 4 engine heavy jets, or in command of a single seat supersonic fighter.

Of course, military pilots do tend to kill themselves somewhat more frequently than 121 pilots.

Joe

V1, just out of curiousity, where did you find this definition of "professionalism"?

businessdictionary.com