Latest "SkyWest Big Announcement™"
05-05-2009, 06:44 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: A220 CA
Posts: 601
Originally Posted by Nevets
We all need to stop fighting each other and try working together to make the profession better. Having anymosity or resentment for Mesa pilots does not help.
i don't read all the mesa threads on here, so maybe i miss out on it, but i don't know why people would be mad, especially now when they really can't go anywhere else, at the pilots at mesa. i feel bad for them, as i feel bad for anyone that gets stuck working at a bad company, in any industry. and i'll feel bad for them when mesa disappears. it's an unfortunate situation.
i'll reiterate what someone else said, and this again was in response to what you said about feeling noble for going to a good regional. that is completely ridiculous, and...well, i was about to say i'm surprised you could even say such a thing, but i've stopped being surprised at the nonsense that you spout on here. we go to work at companies that we want to work at, for whatever our own selfish reasons are. there is no great noble plan on anyone's part, even *gasp* yours. maybe once you're there, you'll do some noble stuff, volunteering for the betterment of the pilot group (which, selfishly, includes you, right?), but i don't see noble people like you lining up to work at the worst companies out there just so they can fight to improve them. again, reiterating what someone else said, i've been in real life for awhile too. life is too short to waste it on joining some company where it is well known that the management treats the employees like dirt and couldn't care less about them. i was at trans states for long enough to re-figure that out, and i was then very very fortunate to be able to go to skywest while the getting was good. noble for doing so? of course not. i did it so i can be happy with my life. is that noble for me? yes. noble for my family? yes. noble for the people that stayed at trans states? i don't care.
no amount of fighting on anyone's part is going to change the fundamental attitude ingrained/developed/required by the people running trans states, gojets (shudder), and mesa, among many others in the long and ignoble history of this industry. do i feel sorry for people that work in those places because management is going to constantly screw them over? yes i do. there's nothing noble about staying at places like that, though. nor do people stay at places like that out of any sense of nobility.
05-05-2009, 06:45 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 117
Earlier in the tread there was talk about the push to stop the regional whipsaw by ALPA. A comment was made that mgmt would fight it and I'm not too sure that is true. Mgmt wants to keep pilot costs down not because they hate pilots and like running cheap and crappy operations but because they are always looking over their shoulder for someone cheaper trying to take away flying. If ALPA were able to level the field of play when it comes to pilot cost I think that mgmts of established airlines would see an opportunity to stabilize their business long term and get rid of the boom and bust cycles we see now. The only ones against it would be mainline mgmt. I have not always been a fan of ALPAs current agendas but this could be a big win for pilots and stabilize an uncertain regional future. Am I way off on this or does this make sense to anyone else.
05-05-2009, 06:52 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: A220 CA
Posts: 601
rjboy, what you say makes sense, but it would never happen that way. even in more stable industries with much higher margins, management would never be happy or sign on to a deal in which any amount of control is taken away from them. that concept is especially magnified in the cutthroat, low margin world of airlines. you're right in that the mainline management would be completely against it, far more even than the regionals would. but it's the responsibility of management of any company to look for every possible competitive advantage. so don't be looking for them to sign on to any such plan.
05-05-2009, 07:55 PM
#64
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,392
Originally Posted by rjboy
Earlier in the tread there was talk about the push to stop the regional whipsaw by ALPA. A comment was made that mgmt would fight it and I'm not too sure that is true. Mgmt wants to keep pilot costs down not because they hate pilots and like running cheap and crappy operations but because they are always looking over their shoulder for someone cheaper trying to take away flying. If ALPA were able to level the field of play when it comes to pilot cost I think that mgmts of established airlines would see an opportunity to stabilize their business long term and get rid of the boom and bust cycles we see now. The only ones against it would be mainline mgmt. I have not always been a fan of ALPAs current agendas but this could be a big win for pilots and stabilize an uncertain regional future. Am I way off on this or does this make sense to anyone else.
05-05-2009, 08:33 PM
#65
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by dontsurf
i don't know why i bother responding to you. but suffice it to say i have neither animosity nor resentment for mesa PILOTS. i will have to assume that there are people who do have those feelings for mesa pilots, but i don't know anyone like that. every single person i know, specifically and mainly the dozens of former mesa pilots that i work with, hates the way mesa management treats the mesa pilots. how that could possibly look to you like animosity or resentment toward mesa pilots is beyond me. where did you even get those words? animosity? resentment? for what would you even possibly imagine that i would resent a mesa pilot? that doesn't even make sense. resentment? wow.
i don't read all the mesa threads on here, so maybe i miss out on it, but i don't know why people would be mad, especially now when they really can't go anywhere else, at the pilots at mesa. i feel bad for them, as i feel bad for anyone that gets stuck working at a bad company, in any industry. and i'll feel bad for them when mesa disappears. it's an unfortunate situation.
i'll reiterate what someone else said, and this again was in response to what you said about feeling noble for going to a good regional. that is completely ridiculous, and...well, i was about to say i'm surprised you could even say such a thing, but i've stopped being surprised at the nonsense that you spout on here. we go to work at companies that we want to work at, for whatever our own selfish reasons are. there is no great noble plan on anyone's part, even *gasp* yours. maybe once you're there, you'll do some noble stuff, volunteering for the betterment of the pilot group (which, selfishly, includes you, right?), but i don't see noble people like you lining up to work at the worst companies out there just so they can fight to improve them. again, reiterating what someone else said, i've been in real life for awhile too. life is too short to waste it on joining some company where it is well known that the management treats the employees like dirt and couldn't care less about them. i was at trans states for long enough to re-figure that out, and i was then very very fortunate to be able to go to skywest while the getting was good. noble for doing so? of course not. i did it so i can be happy with my life. is that noble for me? yes. noble for my family? yes. noble for the people that stayed at trans states? i don't care.
no amount of fighting on anyone's part is going to change the fundamental attitude ingrained/developed/required by the people running trans states, gojets (shudder), and mesa, among many others in the long and ignoble history of this industry. do i feel sorry for people that work in those places because management is going to constantly screw them over? yes i do. there's nothing noble about staying at places like that, though. nor do people stay at places like that out of any sense of nobility.
i don't read all the mesa threads on here, so maybe i miss out on it, but i don't know why people would be mad, especially now when they really can't go anywhere else, at the pilots at mesa. i feel bad for them, as i feel bad for anyone that gets stuck working at a bad company, in any industry. and i'll feel bad for them when mesa disappears. it's an unfortunate situation.
i'll reiterate what someone else said, and this again was in response to what you said about feeling noble for going to a good regional. that is completely ridiculous, and...well, i was about to say i'm surprised you could even say such a thing, but i've stopped being surprised at the nonsense that you spout on here. we go to work at companies that we want to work at, for whatever our own selfish reasons are. there is no great noble plan on anyone's part, even *gasp* yours. maybe once you're there, you'll do some noble stuff, volunteering for the betterment of the pilot group (which, selfishly, includes you, right?), but i don't see noble people like you lining up to work at the worst companies out there just so they can fight to improve them. again, reiterating what someone else said, i've been in real life for awhile too. life is too short to waste it on joining some company where it is well known that the management treats the employees like dirt and couldn't care less about them. i was at trans states for long enough to re-figure that out, and i was then very very fortunate to be able to go to skywest while the getting was good. noble for doing so? of course not. i did it so i can be happy with my life. is that noble for me? yes. noble for my family? yes. noble for the people that stayed at trans states? i don't care.
no amount of fighting on anyone's part is going to change the fundamental attitude ingrained/developed/required by the people running trans states, gojets (shudder), and mesa, among many others in the long and ignoble history of this industry. do i feel sorry for people that work in those places because management is going to constantly screw them over? yes i do. there's nothing noble about staying at places like that, though. nor do people stay at places like that out of any sense of nobility.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Regional management would probably be opposed because it would make their product less marketable to the majors. Fifty-seaters competing on their own economic merits without the advantage of cut-rate labor...
As for being noble, you have me confused with someone else. I'll expect your apology for that.
05-06-2009, 06:25 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
Is that any different than the pilots who left decent regionals to go to compass? They will be stapled above all other regionals when what ALPA's working on happens.
Is that any different than the pilots who left decent regionals to go to compass? They will be stapled above all other regionals when what ALPA's working on happens.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Can you explain?
05-06-2009, 07:53 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,803
Nevets...why do you think it is wrong rickair feels that way? And why does it matter? I've got similar feelings for some others, and they are perfectly warranted. I mean this in the nicest possible way because you usually are one of the most respectful on here, but you don't have a right to tell any of us how we should feel about an experience you never realized...
05-06-2009, 09:47 AM
#68
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
[/i]
I was referring to DALPA's strategic plan. Take all RJ flying back by eliminating the 50 seater, then staple the remaining regional pilots, beginning with the wholly owneds.
I was referring to DALPA's strategic plan. Take all RJ flying back by eliminating the 50 seater, then staple the remaining regional pilots, beginning with the wholly owneds.
05-06-2009, 11:39 AM
#69
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
Nevets...why do you think it is wrong rickair feels that way? And why does it matter? I've got similar feelings for some others, and they are perfectly warranted. I mean this in the nicest possible way because you usually are one of the most respectful on here, but you don't have a right to tell any of us how we should feel about an experience you never realized...
05-06-2009, 12:13 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by duvie
Your reasons for going to Mesa in the first place are your own, but I seriously doubt that you made the decision to stay there rather than make a lateral move to another regional to help Mesa pilots.
I try to help Mesa pilots by supporting ALPA with dues and volunteer time.
My reasons for going to Mesa were;
1. To fly a type of aircraft to airports I thought would be challenging and fascinating.
2. Hopefully be based as close as possible to my home.
3. Hope of quick upgrade to start building PIC time and on to the majors.
4. Mesa was in contract negotiations at the time and I hoped a new contract would contain improvements.
So far, I have been lucky and each of these has proven true.
I applied to Express Jet, they had already stopped hiring. If they had hired me, I would have gone there in the hope of being based in LAX or ONT. If all of that had proven true, I would now be furloughed.
I applied to SKW, interviewed, and was placed in the pool. While I was at Mesa indoc training/ground school, SKW sent me an E120 class date. I declined. If I had accepted, today I would be an E120 FO. I would be earning less and I would have a tough commute from FAT. I would not be logging PIC time. I am uncertain about the furlough situation at SKW, but the rumor surfaces every once in a while.
What has changed during my brief airline career? The economy has tanked and the majors are not hiring. I am facing the strong possibility of a displacement to FO and then a furlough. Should one or both of these occur, I will still have made the right decision.
Companies like SKW, XJT, AWAC and ASA have better work rules than many of their major counterparts.
Maybe. I personally would not know. One of the sad facts of human nature is that someone losing pay and time off at a major is bound to be unhappy. At the same time, someone leaving the regionals for an increase in days off and eventual pay is going to be relatively happy.
I have not yet talked specifics with any regional pilot who has convinced me that he/she has it significantly better than I do.
As for Republic's 175s, besides the Midwest operation, its up to the legacy airline pilots to manage scope; we have no bargaining chips in negotiating with management to decrease the size of aircraft we fly.
Well, Rickair7777 and the others who feel that pilots currently working at Mesa are nothing more than JO's useful idiots might have steps that you should take to fix this. Either that are they are hypocrites. If MAG pilots are responsible for everything JO does and for the decline in the pilot profession in general, then you must also accept your share of responsibility for what your company does. I feel that great market forces are at work that are beyond the ability of any single company or pilot group to manipulate. When a pilot at another regional calls us "bottom-feeders", I fight back.
Again, I hope you're sticking it to JO, but I don't believe the martyr story. You're at Mesa for your PIC time because as evidenced by the lack of lifers at Mesa, the work rules suck.
I try to help Mesa pilots by supporting ALPA with dues and volunteer time.
My reasons for going to Mesa were;
1. To fly a type of aircraft to airports I thought would be challenging and fascinating.
2. Hopefully be based as close as possible to my home.
3. Hope of quick upgrade to start building PIC time and on to the majors.
4. Mesa was in contract negotiations at the time and I hoped a new contract would contain improvements.
So far, I have been lucky and each of these has proven true.
I applied to Express Jet, they had already stopped hiring. If they had hired me, I would have gone there in the hope of being based in LAX or ONT. If all of that had proven true, I would now be furloughed.
I applied to SKW, interviewed, and was placed in the pool. While I was at Mesa indoc training/ground school, SKW sent me an E120 class date. I declined. If I had accepted, today I would be an E120 FO. I would be earning less and I would have a tough commute from FAT. I would not be logging PIC time. I am uncertain about the furlough situation at SKW, but the rumor surfaces every once in a while.
What has changed during my brief airline career? The economy has tanked and the majors are not hiring. I am facing the strong possibility of a displacement to FO and then a furlough. Should one or both of these occur, I will still have made the right decision.
Companies like SKW, XJT, AWAC and ASA have better work rules than many of their major counterparts.
Maybe. I personally would not know. One of the sad facts of human nature is that someone losing pay and time off at a major is bound to be unhappy. At the same time, someone leaving the regionals for an increase in days off and eventual pay is going to be relatively happy.
I have not yet talked specifics with any regional pilot who has convinced me that he/she has it significantly better than I do.
As for Republic's 175s, besides the Midwest operation, its up to the legacy airline pilots to manage scope; we have no bargaining chips in negotiating with management to decrease the size of aircraft we fly.
Well, Rickair7777 and the others who feel that pilots currently working at Mesa are nothing more than JO's useful idiots might have steps that you should take to fix this. Either that are they are hypocrites. If MAG pilots are responsible for everything JO does and for the decline in the pilot profession in general, then you must also accept your share of responsibility for what your company does. I feel that great market forces are at work that are beyond the ability of any single company or pilot group to manipulate. When a pilot at another regional calls us "bottom-feeders", I fight back.
Again, I hope you're sticking it to JO, but I don't believe the martyr story. You're at Mesa for your PIC time because as evidenced by the lack of lifers at Mesa, the work rules suck.
The Dash Whisperer
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 05-06-2009 at 06:47 PM.
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