I know guys who have lived in a van (not an RV... a van) in the vicinity of the airport while on reserve, and others who had hot-reserve LIVE (yes sleep and eat too) at the airport for 3 days, then commute to their parents house for 1 night of sleep in their "own" bed, because with all the debt, they couldnt even afford a stupid crashpad on their pay.. and their parents didnt necessarily have a money tree, either.

Once you could say, but it's only temporary at the regionals, a stepping stone to better pay. Not anymore. Regionals are a career path now for the unfortunate ones who don't want to move to the majors, or don't have the luck. Because that's what it is... luck and nothing more.

People move all the time for jobs. My Dad and Mom moved 9 times while I was growing up. And they weren't military. If the airlines are going to open and close bases, then they will have to pay relocation expenses if they expect people to live in domicile.

Yes but when these people move in most situations it is their choice to move. Not being perfectly happy in New York, then the base closes and you have to move to Nowheresville, PA, and you don't have a choice if you want to keep that job. For many it would be the straw that breaks the camels back if they had to live in base, all while the airlines continue doing buisness as usual, already given with the instability not knowing whether you will have a job next month or not, now you won't even know where you will live a month from now.

Airlines won't pay more until they have to. Many pilots will find other jobs if they're forced to move their families to Newark for $16000/yr. Then you'll pi$$ & moan when your flight gets cancelled.

You can legally do a 16 hour duty day, get an 8 hour overnight, then back for another long day. Most commutes don't approach that level of stress...they need to fix the existing FAR's before they talk about new ones.

Ultimately there is no legal basis for either the FAA or the company to tell you where and how to spend your days off. Outlawing pilots commuting is about as ludicrous as outlawing pilots having children...I can tell you from experience that small babies are much less conducive to rest than the typical commute.

With that said, the Colgan FO's self-determined schedule was worse than worst-case legal rest. Sleep while jumpseating on multiple redeye legs does not count IMO.

Good points... but keep in mind that even close-by east coast commuting takes a long time too... For instance let's say one lives in New England. Up at 2am or 3am to drive to BOS to catch the earlier flights to the NYC area before stuff gets backed up, wait around for several hours before the trip starts in the late afternoon--- it's equivalent if not worse to the red-eye.

Also, stand-ups/high-speeds/whatever are legal and just as exhausting if not more so... especially when the airline makes you fly sometimes up to 20 consecutive calendar days (24hrs off between days every week counted as "off" days). I have seen this happen, no joke.

If you find an airline to pay for relocation expenses over and over and over without finding ways to weasel out of it (they will), I will personally grant you ownership of the Moon.

Also, again as I have mentioned, if someone in the relationship has a stable better paying job, the family is not going to move for the unstable and low-paying regional job. It's not going to happen. The pilot will commute and that's it. And the excuse: "Just quit and find another profession" is not a solution for too many reasons to count.

I find it interesting that it is not legal rest Dead Heading (good), but the ride to and from the hotel in the van is (what?) on reduced rest.
Onther thing more ailrines could do to curb fatigue and make alot of commuters happy is-Home Basing. My gosh what a novel idea! In fact there are 121 operators like Kalitta that do just that. Hmmm

Best Case Scenario: We are offered incentives to live in base. If we commute, the airlines positive space us and we are on duty while they do it.

Worst Case Scenario: Commuting is either no longer allowed or we do it on our own time and have to prove we got adequate rest before duty (i.e. hotel receipt with check in time)

I don't personally see either of these playing out. The solution will be somewhere in the middle. Basically they will find the most cost effective way to barely meet whatever regulations are put into place.

Rather than preaching to the choir here, why not address these issues to your elected officials.

Spend a few minutes you would spend here and email your senators and representatives. Let them know how bad the duty limits are, and how many times the NTSB has suggested increasing rest with no response from the FAA. Or how pressured we are when we call in fatigued/sick.

Every Senator/representative has a link on their home page to contact them. While they probably have some intern doing a quick scan, a couple hundred emails on the same issue in short order while this is in the public consciousness will likely illicit some sort of response.

Re-read the first sentence of my post.

OK. Re-read my post. More attractive salaries AND ban commuting. Then people can afford to live in domicile. And why would I care if flights get canceled?

Guys nothing is going to change until we (pilots) change. As long as there are guys willing to work for nothing or next to nothing it will never change. I worked for very little but had a plan. When I got close to 30, if I was not real close to getting hired at a major I was going to get out of the aviation business. Fortunately it worked out for me. I was at my commuter for three years then moved on. I was not willing to commute to work and be gone around half the month for what regionals paid at the time.

The regional pay has increased since I left the regional industry, you however, live at the mercy of your regional's contract with their major airline affiliate. Look at Comair and ASA, as soon as you get a good contract they make your airline smaller.

We are our own worst enemies. I know a guy who live out of a truck and his luggage was friggin black garbage bag. He was 30ish and divorced and lived in a truck but he had a job as a pilot. Know any doctors, bankers, lawyers, or insurance agents that would agree to work for that little pay because they loved their job. He!! no. You work to make money unless your independently wealthy. How many bankers are hot bunking in the bronx so they can say they are a NY investment banker? Not one.

Guys we are the problem.

Completely unrealistic. My regional opened and closed bases at LAX, SLC, and DFW all within a two year period. Sure the company pays moving expenses, but thats it--just the expenses. Within that time period, try buying and selling and packing and unpacking and 9 new schools (3 kids different ages X 3 schools each X 3 cities X a bunch of teachers per kid). Moving may as well have been a full time job. Ive spent more time waiting for the cable guy than anyone I know.

Dont try to tell us that we knew what we were getting into.

I just emailed my local congressman, both state senators and the president asking them to do something about this. I work at the company under investigation and I am tired of them taking advantage of us. Something has to be done.

OK re-read mine! No airline is going to offer attractive salaries voluntarily. Feds can't force them too without re-regulating the industry. ALPA?? HA HA HA!!! What's "attractive" on the east coast?? I would say 60K just to get by living in a dump. Regional CA's make around that. It would take a hellavalot more than 60K for pilots move to domicile. If they ban commuting(I don't see how they could), there will be massive attrition.

Here's a wacky idea:

How about an unpaid deadhead to start your trip which arrives just prior to check-in? And "just prior to checkin" means you dont have to take the 5am departure to get to Atlanta for a 4pm check-in. This deadhead would be included in duty time. Even a guaranteed cockpit or flight attendant jumpseat would be ok. This really wouldnt cost much more than the seat youre taking up. And either way, youre going to be taking up a seat for your commute.

And to even further resolve my novel solution, the company could negotiate some restrictions. That way, some knucklehead cant say that he wants to live in Guam with a same day commute to Scranton.

I do not intend to rain on anyone's parade, but I would like to make a comment. The ability to live anywhere you choose and commute to work is a privilege afforded by the nature of the industry and not a right that your employer is obligated to provide for you.

What many people have forgotten is that you go to where the jobs are and work your lifestyle into the demands of it. Yes, NYC and L.A. are expensive places to live, but if that is where the job is you make it work. If you can successfully commute into your job then that is a good thing. If not, you better have an alternate means, and demanding your employer adjust their schedule to meet your needs is unrealistic in most career fields - especially when supply and demand is not in your favor.

This just lowers your bar even more. I don't know about anyone else's contract, but if my work schedule includes a deadhead per the construction of the pairing, then I am compensated at 100% my hourly rate to be there.

What you need to concentrate on is not volunteering yourself for free dh's, but rather negotiate a better contract which includes better trip construction and QOL issues.

Or you can just come in a day early.

thats what Netjets does, You just have to live in or near one of their designated airports so they can get you where they need you. Not really a whacky idea. We can book ourselves on jumpseats and nonrev listings already so why not be able to book ourselves positive space to and from work? Sure they will say "we're taking up revenue seats" but whats the alternative? It would likely save on sick calls due to not being able to commute in for a trip also. They could give an incentive to those who choose to just live in base. You either take the PS commute or live in base for a yearly bonus. easy enough, but will likely never happen. bean counters will just see it as the employees taking money out of their pockets :cool:

What do you expect them to do? You have voluntarily accepted employment with your company and can leave at any time.

Question. Can Netjets do this because of the nature of their business? i.e., because they don't run a hub-and-spoke system it seems like they have to provide this in order to get the crew to the aircraft.

That is a completely true statement. Youre not raining on my parade. However, airline industry has been constanly evolving since inception. Therefore, it is my arguement that our perceptions about commuting, pay and work rules should change as well. In the 80s, it used to be that if you lived in Georgia and wanted a commuter job, you worked for ASA and "commuted" to the big city. Now, everything has changed. The world (including the regional world) has gone global. Regionals are no longer just flying E110's to Macon and Muscle Shoals. However, starting pay still blows and people have to move all around the country to get these jobs. How about rewarding your employees with a ride to work? And, as I said, there could be restrictions. Possibly, required to live within a 2 hour flight of your base? Just throwing this out for discussion.

And, by the way, the only rights that your employer is obligated to provide to you, are the rights we negotiate. You dont get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. That may sound immoral, but it is a business basic.

Completely agree. I betcha RA gets a positive space pass to work.

Very good points. You could try to negotiate commercial tickets and/or paid company deadheads for trips that may begin out of domicile. That is where I would start if you wanted to pursue an avenue which eased the commute. True, there might be many lines that would begin in domicile, but seniority would be the factor in who gets and who does not.

Very true, but not immoral. Your job is to negotiate the entire pie, your employers job is to negotiate to you only a small sliver. It would be immoral (well, unethical is probably a better word) if either side did not work to the best of their ability.

Question to the feeder pilots… When you interviewed, did you know where your base was going to be? During basic indoctrination, didn't the instructor point out that the use crew room as a rest area prohibited? Weren’t you all warned about the evils of long distance commutes? Did not the subject of crash pads come up during training? Did you expect by some miracle that your salaries would actually start as some livable wage rather than $1,500 per month? Were you all so naïve to think that you would be treated with respect by your company? Those with young wife and child(ren), did you really think this through and consider their feelings and sacrifices? How many of you in your twenties are lucky enough to have generous parents still willing to supplement your income? With all of this in mind, all of you accepted those substandard conditions. Why?

The theory was that you would do this for a year or two until moving on to bigger and better things. Doctors have poorly paid residencies with awful QOL. Everyone pays their dues (hopefully). This "feeder airline" step wasnt supposed to last 15 years.

An airline can't tell you where to live. It will never fly.

I dont really care why they do it i just said they do it. They do it because they need to ensure their pilots are in position to fly an aircraft.

Also just because the majors have a hub and spoke systems doesnt mean they dont need to have their pilots in position for a flight. When i have training i can book myself positive space to training so why not other times? If i commute on my own and the seats open then its the same situation. It costs the company nothing to allow a positive space seat on their own airline. Now if the planes full then sure you're taking up space but thats what a jumpseat is for. At nwa the Jumpseat has been added to the BOW and CANNOT be weight restricted. If all airlines did this then that would help tremendously for people trying to get to and from work.

Point is that there are alternatives out there that could be explored but the bean counters will always find a way to justify skimping out of it.

How about lets say 2 guys live in DFW and both are FOs on an airbus. What if they were allowed to get together and were allowed to specifically do DFW flights/ When one comes in to DFW on his last leg the other DFW commuter starts his trip. It would take some logistics to work it out but that would cost almost nothing if it could be worked out. In fact it would save the company hotel and per diem costs.

the only problem i see with this is if that specific aircraft is used on that segment or if it gets shifted in and out of that station.

I'm all for any option to make commutes easier for those who do it, but I don't believe in any way, shape, or form that it is the companies responsibility or obligation to do so. The company offers someone the job and the applicant either accepts it or denies it. They assign the domicile and it is the employee's responsibility to ensure that they arrive for duty at said time.

Just my speculation, but if the feds were going to implement anything with regards to commuting it would probably be this: they would probably institute a regulation in which your commute time would count towards your duty time AND make it your responsibility to ensure compliance with it.

Most airlines dont assign you anything, you bid it. What if said airline closes bases on regular bases? What if said airline moves your aircraft out of said base? What if they get rid of that aircraft and you're forced to bid into something else at a different base? This isnt like normal jobs with an office building in a city that wont change. Our jobs are unlike any other job in this country. Closest thing to it would be the military and switching bases and the government pays for the moves. Do you think the airlines are going to pay to move pilots every time something changes? Its cheaper for the companies to just let people commute and attempt to make it as easy as possible to do so.

No kidding. And since you can only hold what your seniority dictates, then that is an assignment.

Find a new job -most airlines that play "musical domicile" usually don't pay well enough to put up with their b.s. anyway.

Bid another airplane and/or seat - if possible.

Part of playing the game.

All of your points are valid and realistic. However, that is part of the job and most of us understand and accept that when we take the job. I'm not anti-commute, I'm just saying the responsibility to make it to work on time rests with the individual - that is true in ALL professions.

You portray it as everyone could and should live in base and thats not the case with this job. Once you're established within your company you dont just "Quit" if you have to change bases. This industry is run on seniority and that coincides with your pay.

I commute to MEM for my job with NWA/DAL, I had a choice of bases and aircraft as a new hire and i chose. Now lets say i moved to memphis right away and now that we've merged with Delta they decide to move aircraft out of MEM and put them in slc, should i then quit or uproot my family and move to slc? What if in a year the company decides to move planes from slc to atl and i cant hold a specific aircraft in atl, should i then uproot my family again? Maybe i should quit and start over at another airline? You're portraying this situation in our industry too simplistic. I dont have an office job thats central located in one place throughout my career. And no guys at this point in their careers just dont quit and start over ;)

Commuting is part of this job now and just because you live in base doesnt mean you're going to have more rest anyway. You cant tell if guys whom live in base are getting sufficient sleep at home before they work so whats the difference? I, as a commuter, am often more rested than guys i fly with that live in base. Regulating commuters DOESNT solve anything.

I'd postulate that if the airline was on the hook for relocation expenses beyond your control (closing your base or a Jr assigned seat) that much of the musical base shenanigans would stop pretty quick.

Look at UPS/FedEx....

Who are you? Why do you ask this question? I came here to be a pilot. I resent the implication of your post. I am not a young pilot. I had a first career and a fair amount of time flying. You my friend come across as arrogant and that is a quality we would do quite well to do away with.

I'm all for living wherever you want to live. My comments were more of knowing that the individual is ultimately responsible to get to work. Some, and I'm not including you in this category, have postulated an "I deserve attitude" with regards to the airline somehow "owing" them a ride to work. Believe me, I understand that certain conditions outside of your control do necessitate a commute on your part - and not by choice either. ;)

My "musical domicile" comment was geared more towards the entry-level bottom feeders (similar to type I used to fly for :D) that moved domiciles so as to not have to pay per diem. Those carriers are the ones that came to mind, not established majors who are doing it due to operational necessity or mergers.

I don't think it would either. I was inferring that it could happen (possible but not probable), but only as a knee-jerk reaction.

We have our "Residencies" too, It's called Instructing. Where you live at home or the crappy university student cage (which is better then a Resident who has to move to where they are placed, Med school bills and all.) You and one student and whoever you crash on are all the risk involved at that point. Consequently you get paied crap; but you are home every night.

By the time you belt into a plane with 50 specimines of the mighty unwashed masses, Recidency is over. You are now part of a commercial flight crew. The fact that both the company and the pilots look at themselves as being in a disposable job just makes the whole thing worse.

Pretending that flying for a regional is like being a Resident is Bull. Flying for a regional is closer to working the crappy county hospital as a full fledged doctor of medicine. Not glamorous, not big money, but you are still a professional acting in a professional capacity at the only job you have.

But either way, Pilots comparing themselves to Doctors may be a sign that the Pilot Ego is completely out of control.