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Pilot Lifestyle Under Threat
The media has been attacking the low wages that the FO made in the Colgan crash. They also have been critical of the commuting lifestyle. If the airlines respond by forcing pilots to live at their base the results could be catastrophic for many.
It is hard enough to make it on airline pay. It would be near impossible to make it if you were forced to live in NYC or most other big cities far from home. I doubt that the airlines will react by raising wages. Look out for big changes in company commuting policies. Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash | Top Stories | Seattle News, Local News, Breaking News, Weather | KING5.com Skyhigh |
I'm sure there would be more than a few walk outs if a 20k a year pilot HAD to live in the apple. I just don't see that going over at all.
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I dont think they could be that strict on commuting pilots, you cant do that. They would lose a lot of pilots. example...70% of air tran pilots commute.
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Would it be out of place to expect that the airlines would have a "sleep room" set aside - maybe a room off of the crew room where pilots could get a quality nap? I've seen this type of operation in the military before. When I was in Kuwait back in 2003 during the summer time - it was nearly impossible to get a good day's rest in the unairconditioned general purpose tents with temperatures reaching over 100 degrees. Eventually they set up an air conditioned crew rest tent.
I agree that flying fatigued is a safety hazard - but not every mishap can be pinned on fatigue either. I'm glad they (NTSB) are looking at it but from reading the transcript they seemed alert (meaning not sleepy) but they had a breakdown in basic airwork. USMCFLYR |
I feel that since the swine flu has lost is shock factor, the media needs to scare the public with something new. This will blow over when something new happens and nothing will change.
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I don't think that the airlines could ever do away with commuting. The above mention of AirTran is a great example. Enough pilots would walk away if this happened that it would create an immediate problem.
I don't see either scenario as likely, but I bet that before they do away with commuting, they build our commute into our duty. My old charter company did this, as does NetJets among others. I wouldn't even care if they paid me for it, as long as I was on duty. |
How could you possibly force pilots to live in base????
Require a local address? OK, I have a crashpad, or I can use my buddy's address. Require that we not leave domicile on our days off? Now that's a company obligation, ie duty. I guess you would have to ban recreational travel by pilots...there's no difference between commuting and returning from vacation in europe. What about the guy who lives in base, but stays out partying before a Sunday AM show? He might be legally sober, but he ain't rested.... Until they can build a breathalyzer which measures fatigue levels this is a silly concept. I would quit, as would many others. And just for fun I would work up until the last day before the rule took effect, then walk off the job. I think you would see an instant 20%-30% reduction in domestic air travel due to lack of pilots. Besides the issue here is not really commuting, it is stupidity. Ski all day, redeye across the country, then work all the next day? Most folks can't do that, and even those who have the stamina would then be degraded on the job. |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 610203)
Would it be out of place to expect that the airlines would have a "sleep room" set aside - maybe a room off of the crew room where pilots could get a quality nap?
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I'm pretty optimistic about most things in life but aviation is slowly loosing it's ability to be one of those things. Mainly because these days money is everything to everyone. Aviation is one pretty unique part of the economy in a sense that when a passenger buys a ticket, every single penny that they pay goes to someone different. In other words there are so many people, agencies, administrations, corporations, associations, boards, shareholders, and finally front line employees having to take a bite out of the cookie. Basically when we as the the flight crew members see it there are only crumbs of the crumbs left. All that and now the cookies being baked are getting smaller and smaller. So until people learn to part with their money and downsize their lifestyles AKA greed, we as the people that harness the brunt of the liability will be only scrutinized and made out to be the scape goats. Pilots are people and people make mistakes, and when the people that influence those people cut corners the mistakes become more abundant.
We are going to have to get used to the fact that a flight crew may have screwed up and we as pilots are all guilty by association in the eyes of the public. Unfortunately nothing will come of it and people will all forget about it just like 9/11. Money alone will not fix it, but rather a reduction in greed. That's going to be a tough one to overcome. |
While We're At It
The commute that the Colgan FO did from SEA through MEM up to EWR with sleep spread out over two flights and the crew room would have actually probably left her
more rested than a standup overnight or a 16 hour duty day followed by a reduced rest overnight into another 16 hour duty day, both of which are, of course, legal already and common practice at various airlines. The FAA can put that in their pipe and smoke it. :cool: |
Although I don't disagree with you, I heard on the news that she had texted her friends saying that she was tired and felt like she should call in sick. So, in her own words, she wasn't rested.
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Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
(Post 610230)
Although I don't disagree with you, I heard on the news that she had texted her friends saying that she was tired and felt like she should call in sick. So, in her own words, she wasn't rested.
I agree though, the flying sick part and the sneezing on the transcript is indicative of a massive sick leave problem at Colgan (and the same could be said about other airlines). |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 610203)
Would it be out of place to expect that the airlines would have a "sleep room" set aside - maybe a room off of the crew room where pilots could get a quality nap?
Now you have multiple issues to deal with. 1) Get management to contact whoever runs the space to expand the crewroom for this purpose. Bear in mind, it may not be there, the space that is. 2) It will cost money. Why would management want to spend that money? Or, make the existing crewroom smaller t partition it for a quiet area. If you've seen some crewrooms, there are already small enough. Trying to ensure the area is actually quiet enough to get rest is whole other issue. The crewroom in my domicile has a "quiet" area next to the regular area, it's not so quiet. 3) You have to trust the pilots to take care of the area, or have somebody manage/take care of the area. Again, why would management want this additional cost? As far as trusting pilots, most can be responsible, many can not. Somebody is going to screw it up and ruin the privilege for everybody else. This kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME. |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 610203)
Would it be out of place to expect that the airlines would have a "sleep room" set aside - maybe a room off of the crew room where pilots could get a quality nap? I've seen this type of operation in the military before. When I was in Kuwait back in 2003 during the summer time - it was nearly impossible to get a good day's rest in the unairconditioned general purpose tents with temperatures reaching over 100 degrees. Eventually they set up an air conditioned crew rest tent.
I agree that flying fatigued is a safety hazard - but not every mishap can be pinned on fatigue either. I'm glad they (NTSB) are looking at it but from reading the transcript they seemed alert (meaning not sleepy) but they had a breakdown in basic airwork. USMCFLYR |
Getting sleep on an airplane IS NOT quality rest. That is why the FAA and the DOD does not constitute it as rest. In short, the noises and vibrations keeps a person from enterring the normal rem and deep sleep cycles.
I've flown airplanes which had bunks installed. And even then, assuming I actually fell asleep, I always woke up feeling bad because the quality of sleep wasn't good. If she was rested, then she probably wouldn't have been texting about how she was tired. |
[quote=dojetdriver;610243]
1) Get management to contact whoever runs the space to expand the crewroom for this purpose. Bear in mind, it may not be there, the space that is. 2) It will cost money. Why would management want to spend that money? Or, make the existing crewroom smaller t partition it for a quiet area. If you've seen some crewrooms, there are already small enough. Trying to ensure the area is actually quiet enough to get rest is whole other issue. The crewroom in my domicile has a "quiet" area next to the regular area, it's not so quiet. 3) You have to trust the pilots to take care of the area, or have somebody manage/take care of the area. Again, why would management want this additional cost? As far as trusting pilots, most can be responsible, many can not. Somebody is going to screw it up and ruin the privilege for everybody else. This kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME. From earlier posts - it sounds like some airlines alreay do this. I'm glad. USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 610247)
Yes - this would require investment. If there isn't space you may have to carve it out. That is what we did.
See above answer. If there gets to be enough pressure - it may be the most logical step. Why did the military give up the space and foot the bill for the extra air conditioned tent? Like I said - investment.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 610247)
LIke many of the signs say around our spaces. Clean up after yourself. A little self-discipline and self-policing will go along way. Who is going to clean it should be be an insurrmountable problem for a bunch of "professionals"
From earlier posts - it sounds like some airlines alreay do this. I'm glad. USMCFLYR |
Or... simply a new FAR that can prevent a 16hr duty day with 7 legs, 8hrs block time, 2 3hr layovers and 4 30min turn arounds all in one day. Maybe something in the line of no more then 1.5hr between flights scheduled and 14hr duty day.
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Originally Posted by USMC3197
(Post 610259)
Or... simply a new FAR that can prevent a 16hr duty day with 7 legs, 8hrs block time, 2 3hr layovers and 4 30min turn arounds all in one day. Maybe something in the line of no more then 1.5hr between flights scheduled and 14hr duty day.
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Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 610264)
No need to go that complex, simply shorten the maximum duty day allowed, and lengthen the minimum "rest" period.
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Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 610252)
All I can say is, when you transition to the civilian world, and it's an airline, you'll be surprised about what makes sense and it logical to us, is not the same as how management sees it.
Yep, sounds simple enough, doesn't it? See above, you'll be surprised how things/people behave in this job. USMCFLYR |
FAA mandated rest
Maybe the FAA should force airlines to include a rest day prior to a pilots first flight? It could be paid and included in pilot duty. The company could spring for a hotel. The rest period could start at check in.
Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 610197)
The media has been attacking the low wages that the FO made in the Colgan crash. They also have been critical of the commuting lifestyle. If the airlines respond by forcing pilots to live at their base the results could be catastrophic for many.
It is hard enough to make it on airline pay. It would be near impossible to make it if you were forced to live in NYC or most other big cities far from home. I doubt that the airlines will react by raising wages. Look out for big changes in company commuting policies. Pilots' low pay, long commutes probed in air crash | Top Stories | Seattle News, Local News, Breaking News, Weather | KING5.com Skyhigh |
First, calling in sick isn't always as easy as it sounds. It might look easy on paper, but the reality on the ground is that calling in sick rarely goes unpunished. One way or another, through either sick occurrences, more scrutiny, or intimidating calls from management (especially when calling in fatigued), a sick/fatigue call gets some sort of underhanded punishment. Not on paper, not by policy, but in reality it does. End of Story.
Second, long commutes happen. Life happens. I now commute trans-con, and that wasn't my original idea, and lucky for me, it's not forever. But guess what? My base got closed, my new base would have absolutely destroyed my QOL, and other life factors got in the way to where now I commute across the country. Not ideal, but that's how the cookies crumbled. Also, sometimes you have to go get a job, and if that means it's across the country, it's across the country. If you're in a relationship with someone else that actually HAS A JOB that PAYS WELL, guess what again, folks? You're not displacing yourself and family for an under 20K job at a hell-hole. Also, I fight for that jumpseat against enough mainline pilots to know that it's not only regional guys schlepping across the country. Sorry, but there's just as many if not more mainline pilots who trans-con the commute. |
Originally Posted by TheBills
(Post 610201)
I dont think they could be that strict on commuting pilots, you cant do that. They would lose a lot of pilots. example...70% of air tran pilots commute.
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The US should adopt the JAR Ops duty/rest regulations. Much more civilized than the FARs.
As for forced based living… especially in the north east??? Right. I say to management, go for it! Hopefully the regional guys would stake stock and tell management to go sh!t in their hats as the pay just ain’t worth it! Now who is going to fly the plane? Maybe… and I say maybe these overpaid morons in management will wake up and make arrangements for hotels for the commuter so they would be well rested before their start of duty. When flying cargo, I slept in the dark rooms. Better than the reclining chair, as long as you did not have a wall shaking window cracking snorer sharing your room. |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 610301)
Maybe… and I say maybe these overpaid morons in management will wake up and make arrangements for hotels for the commuter so they would be well rested before their start of duty. |
Originally Posted by afterburn81
(Post 610267)
It really would be nice to see that happen, but just like everything in aviation there would be an almost uneven trade off. Like pay. They would have to pay us less and hire more people. Bad for us, good for management. Never the other way around. I think it is one of the laws of physics or something.
Aviation physics #1 law...Sh_t always runs downhill, unless acted upon by an outside force...i.e. a crewmembers' head. |
Originally Posted by BURflyer
(Post 610306)
Where does it say anywhere that the company is responsible for where the pilot lives?
I do agree that commuting cross country on a freighter does not cut it. Currently crewmembers know their terms and conditions, and hotels expenses are not covered. They accept without any gripes or move on. Management will not change their views on this issue unless either forced to by job action, or by regulatory authorities. |
Simple way to solve the wages issue is for companies to pay housing for their personnel just like many overseas carriers do, though I think just the notion would give many bean counters a heart attack. :D
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Originally Posted by BURflyer
(Post 610306)
If you are dumb enough to commute from Seattle to the NY area for a 1300 dollar per month job on 10 days off all the power to you.
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Someone correct me if a i am wrong, as i was still a flight student when 9-11 happened. Didn't TSA try to ban jump seating in flight deck, which failed essentially because of the amount of commuters it would screw over?
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Originally Posted by SebastianDesoto
(Post 610371)
Someone correct me if a i am wrong, as i was still a flight student when 9-11 happened. Didn't TSA try to ban jump seating in flight deck, which failed essentially because of the amount of commuters it would screw over?
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Originally Posted by Tinpusher007
(Post 610392)
I believe it was banned shortly after 9/11 but then came back soon after once CASS was established. Now someone correct me...was CASS before or after 9/11?
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Look, you see the video, you see how much of a chance this guy had to recover, the nose oscillated about 4 times before he rolled it over. Whether he was rested or not, the initial stick shaker/pusher would have been enough to slap him in the face, bring him back to reality, and make him recover, but he didn't he froze, I've seen this a thousand times when I flight instructed, the student just holds the yoke back in their chest and freezes, when they enter the stall, then I yell at them to put the nose down. Luckily in a warrior, at 5000 ft you can stall 25 times before you hit the ground as long as the ball is centered, , this was just a breakdown in basic flying skills and instrument scan. That is all, not about rest, fatigue, commuting, autopilot usage, etc. just a simple breakdown in basic flying skills.
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Originally Posted by afterburn81
(Post 610220)
I'm pretty optimistic about most things in life but aviation is slowly loosing it's ability to be one of those things. Mainly because these days money is everything to everyone. Aviation is one pretty unique part of the economy in a sense that when a passenger buys a ticket, every single penny that they pay goes to someone different. In other words there are so many people, agencies, administrations, corporations, associations, boards, shareholders, and finally front line employees having to take a bite out of the cookie. Basically when we as the the flight crew members see it there are only crumbs of the crumbs left. All that and now the cookies being baked are getting smaller and smaller. So until people learn to part with their money and downsize their lifestyles AKA greed, we as the people that harness the brunt of the liability will be only scrutinized and made out to be the scape goats. Pilots are people and people make mistakes, and when the people that influence those people cut corners the mistakes become more abundant. </P>
<P> </P> <P>We are going to have to get used to the fact that a flight crew may have screwed up and we as pilots are all guilty by association in the eyes of the public. Unfortunately nothing will come of it and people will all forget about it just like 9/11. Money alone will not fix it, but rather a reduction in greed. That's going to be a tough one to overcome. <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I don't know about anyone else...But i sure as He!! haven't forgotten about 9/11 nor will I ever. I think thats a pretty broad statement to think people have fogotten about 9/11.</P> |
This investigation is starting to focus on fatigue.... but not the fatigue caused the the standard 14 hour duty days that airlines and their scheduling departments take ADVANTAGE of, but fatigue caused by commuting, something a vast number of pilots do to get to work. This is going in the wrong direction...
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Entice pilots to live in base with attractive salaries. Ban commuting. If you don't want to move, find another job.
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Originally Posted by shadyops
(Post 610529)
Entice pilots to live in base with attractive salaries. Ban commuting. If you don't want to move, find another job.
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Originally Posted by shadyops
(Post 610529)
Entice pilots to live in base with attractive salaries. Ban commuting. If you don't want to move, find another job.
But since you may be living in Chicago till PennyPinch Airlines changes bases and you have to move again, people don't bother moving in the first place. What the hell are we, nomads? |
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