Should we form a regional airline union?
 

I was just wondering what everyones opinion would be to forming one union regional industry wide. The majors tried to do this back in the 70's but if we could do it now we could hopefully quit whipsawing each other and set a higher pay level across the board.

This often gets proposed...

In order to be effective, you'd have to bring most if not all the regional airlines onboard. Do you think ALPA would let ASA, Comair, Air Wisconsin, Expressjet, or any other pilot group go without a fight? Could you get Skywest onboard with representation? Could you get RAH away from the IBT?

Besides, many ALPA regionals have been and currently are whipsawed against other ALPA regionals (see PSA/Piedmont/Mesa/Air Wisconsin in the Airways system, or Comair/ASA/Pinnacle/Mesaba in the DeltaWest system) and its doubtful changing the bargaining agent would make that stop.

In order to end the whipsaw and set a higher level of pay across the board, a large majority of the individual pilots making up individual pilot groups needs to put their own best interests on pause, for at least a little bit, and accept some short-term sacrifices (in pay, work rules, growth, etc) in order to achive long-term strategic gains.

...and is that really possible?

The union is neccessary at the regional level, otherwise the regionals would exploit/abuse turbine-lacking pilots more than they already do..... Are they neccesary at the majors, cargo and fractionals? I don't know, and I won't get into that, but they're definetly neccesary at the regionals, more than ever even........like I said, a young pilot wants to get to a 777 or G-V ASAP, so he/she will fly that RJ for ANY amount of money, to some young kids pay is completely irrelevant.......... A "union regional industry" could work on that.... I like that idea.....

Is it needed...absolutely, can it realistically happen.... very slim chance.

#1) existing regional union's parent orgs are not likely to let the money go... and lets not kid ourselves...unions are about money. I mean.. hell RAH's business agent ..basically a office manager for RAH's pilots with the union is paid more than probably all but a hand full of the pilots at said company.... pathetic.

heck... #1 is enough to sink this idea.
RAPA - Regional Airline Pilots Association -- great idea that will probably never fly.

It will never happen. The regionals right now can't even keep their own unions together.

Exactly. To add, if there isn't enough solidarity to stop management from whipsawing different ALPA regionals, how is it that enough solidarity can be generated to form all regionals under one union? One step at a time.....and regional pilots aren't even close to the first step.

ALPA needs to set national floors on salaries and refuse to sign off on any TA that would come in below those salaries. If they (the regional pilot group) can better that number fine, but no lower than "X" would be permitted. The main reason for bargaining would be QOL issues. And for our non-union brothers and sisters, they can remain non-union but they will be punished by a blackball list if they accept salaries below those scales. That is not going to happen either, but I believe that could work. Turbo is right, regional pilots can't even get their own house in order. Alpa is also an unconcerning money pit for pilots at the regional level. Just my 2 cents.

hmmm something to think about , maybe it could be like a division of ALPA example. RALPA (regional airline pilots association). Then again its more money to spend when there isn't no money to spend.

Regional flying needs to be eliminated all together. Regional pay and work rules need to be brought up to the standards of mainline. Something is wrong with a E-170 captain and FO making $65/hr and $24/hr respectively, while a captain on a mainline jet that seats just a few more people and weighs a few more pounds makes $150/hr and $80/hr.

Part of the problem is each MEC at each airline basically runs itself. The problem with ALPA isn't that it doesn't represent regional or mainline pilots equally.... it only represents an active pilot group. If your local MEC and pilots at your company don't stick up for themselves, you'll get walked on regardless if your mainline or regional.

The solution isn't a regional only union... there is strength in numbers, and further segregating pilot groups isn't the answer. A better solution would be more strict rules from ALPA National.
Provide a basic ALPA pilot contract that lists all the generic items that should be in our contracts.... then modify the ALPA by-laws such that no MEC is authorized to sign a contract for anything less than that basic contract.
Some things would vary from company to company... example; the pay section would cover every type aircraft, or every type by seating capacity (however you wanted to break it down) and establish minimum pay for an ALPA pilot on that equipment. Each airline only pulls from the national basic contract the parts that apply at their airline.

As long as our MEC's are allowed to operate as completely seperate bargaining entities there will be no unified progress, and it makes no difference if it is ALPA, or Regional ALPA.... without a unified bargaining position we won't win.

ALPA national supposedly already has a committee working on a industry general contract.

I love how much people come on here and beoitch about everything at their airlines, and yet hardly ever show up at a union meeting. Then when elections ARE held... 2% vote. You people are pathetic. Do you think management doesn't notice that only 2% of the pilot work force bothers to vote in their own union.

Grow up, stop complaining, and start acting...

and yes, portions of that were also rhetorical in nature....

Why'd we all take the job then? I hate playing devil's advocate gang, but the bottom line will remain the same. After reading a few poorly written articles that created a number of comments from the general public on a number of big media sites, one thing still remains. Joe Shmo and his family still want the cheapest ticket.

We (regional airlines) were created to decrease the cost of flying to the public and make the market more competitive. (Because of the unions great idea of SCOPE) Lots of people have great ideas right now, and it's nice seeing everyone think outside of the box. That still doesn't change the fact of the matter. No matter how many pilots want more pay, management and the union know there's hundreds of other guys that are willing to do the same job for less. That's a pill we all have to swallow for now.

Will there be change in the future? Sure, when the market's starving for pilots again? Who knows, but lets not get too crazy about this. CNN showcased APC the other day, and there's no doubt the general public is probing our forums to read what we talk (complain) about.

Baby steps everyone, baby steps. It starts with regaining the public's respect. Wear your uniform properly, don't turn the PA into a half rate comedic act, and come into work with atleast an ounce of pride about what you do. We're not mainline captains and fo's for plenty of reasons. Whatever those are it doesn't matter, we're stuck at the "bottom feeders" for a while with little movement is in sight. Time to get back to basics, this used to be service industry. Many lost sight of that years, even decades ago. We're here to SERVE the public, the better we do that the more respect we'll earn. In turn, instead of wanting to fly in a "real plane" folks might be looking forward to fly around in a "crop duster".

Just a little food for thought. There's a lot we don't have control over in our jobs. We are the frontline, not the union, not management. US. Rant over.

All it would take is:

• Pilots with the will and time to get it done.

Why it would not work:

• Negative attitude from pilots who think things could never change
• Pilots who believe this is how regionals work, and it will have to stay this way

Why it would seem unrealistic:

• Most pilots cant afford time away from work.

Would it be possible, with some work:

• It sure would.

Very good point there Spank.

I don't think there should be a Regional Union, I think ALPA should become more aware of the particular and specific problems that pertain to and need to be addressed on the Regional level of the Union.

Just my two cents.

Having a regional only union is a BAD idea. We need the resources from ALPA National when crap hits the fan like it did in Buffalo. In my mind here are the two major things we need...

Open communication and a great working relationship between the Regional MEC and their respective Legacy MEC.

More volunteerism from regional pilots within their union.

Actually you just quoted the pay scale difference between compass and air canada. SAME EXACT AIRPLANE SAME EXACT SEATING CONFIG

That can/is/was accomplished by using smaller more fuel efficient "regional" equipment.... somewhere along the line they realized there was a virtual nver ending supply of folks with SJS and they started cutting pay and benefits as well to further maximize profits....

As much as you like to blame people for accepting these low paying jobs, I'd like to point out that it isn't just the accepting of a low paying job, it's also lousy research into what company they even want to work for. So many of these kids just want to get into an airplane.... any airplane, that they do not care who they work for. I'm sorry, but if every single commercial pilot refused to wear colors that didn't matche their paycheck, then the actual companies (paycheck matches the name on the airplane - the big name, not the small one near the door) would be forced to grow....

All regional airline jobs are NOT the same.... flying a CRJ at XYZ company is not the same as flying it ABC. Some companies perform proper maintenance, replace time limited parts, comply with AD's, conduct their own training and accept responsibility for their product rather than farm training our to a subcontract, along with the liability... When you jumpseat on some of these regional carriers and see MULTIPLE MEL stickers all over the cockpit.... you HAVE to know something is wrong there.

The FAA is filled with former ATA lobbyists, and ATA executive positions are filled with former FAA executives.... FAA SAfety Inspectors almost always come from the airlines themselves.... the cross pollenation is ridiculous... the fox is watching the hen house, and has been for years. The effects are just now starting to be seen and felt.

ALPA's big boys didn't want "commuters" 35 years ago and don't want regionals now, except for the dues money we bring. Nothing's changed. They could have dug their heels in long ago to get us better wages and work rules but the big boys didn't want them to. Just like flow through agreements and "One Level of Safety."

If they cared so much, where was Prater last week? How come we saw that guy Rice doing all the talking? He's a nice guy, but you'd think on something that means so much to so many of his constitiuents he'd be right in front of the cameras.

What you are confusing is the career overexpectation of regional pilot with the reasonable expectation. It isn't going to happen. Your expectations out of this accident, aka increased costs, will simply make your contracts with legacy carriers untenable, and promote the subsequent shift of flying back to the majors. This in turn will cause you to attempt blame shift once again to your union--since it can't possibly be your fault.

A number of good points Mason. I whole heartedly agree that all regionals are not created equal. I am fortunate enough to be at one that seems to be among the more stable at the moment. If I imposed the wrong impression that I "blame others" for taking these low paying jobs I was misunderstood. I blame all of us, myself included. That raises the question where else is there to go? I also agree the endless flow of low time pilots looking for a start in the industry will not end anytime soon. I do think it is naive to think that every regional pilot will refuse to accept a paycheck that is any less than our mainline counterparts. Pay is an issue; is it too low? Yes. Are we doing flying that once belonged to mainline? Yes. Do we deserve mainline pay for the flying we do? Absolutely.

Nevertheless, the reason for our being is that we are cheaper SEPERATE entities, even if we are wholy owned. I am not looking to be negative or connotative, just conversive. It is always interesting to read the thoughts of others. I wish I was the eternal optimist that thought mainline pay (or near) was possible at the regional level. Only time will tell, but the last 20 years in the industry have seen nothing but a decline in both pay and benefits. I'll keep dreaming, but I'm afraid that's all I'll do.:cool:

I've got news for you: regionals don't bring in money to ALPA, they cost ALPA money. Pretty much every regional, with the possible exceptions of XJT, EGL, and ASA, actually cost ALPA more than they bring in. The previous exceptions might be break-even. None produce a revenue surplus. They just don't have enough pilots and don't have high enough average earnings. Even AirTran is barely more than break-even for ALPA. We need to get about 2,000+ pilots before we'll really start helping ALPA's bottom line.

So NO, ALPA doesn't want you for the money. ALPA wants to represent regional pilots because it's better for the overall profession for all pilots to be represented by one union rather than a bunch of disparate unions all with their own voices. That will get us nowhere.

Most likely having meetings with high-level government officials to protect your interests. The average day for Captain Prater is about 18 hours long and filled with lobbying on your behalf. Many days at 11pm he's still in his office in downtown DC doing work for you and your fellow pilots. He doesn't always have the time to give a 30 minutes to CNN of which only 10 seconds will make it on air.

Captain Rice is basically the number 2 guy in ALPA. I was very surprised that even he gave the time to CNN to go on camera, as he's usually busy doing work for IFALPA and representing our interests on the international front. Be glad that he took the time for it.

The time value of money is what is not considered...$200 an hr at 55 years old is no where near as much as $100 an hour at 30 years old. They need to bring the salary scale back down to earth, we all do the same job, why is there such gaps in pay. This career is a dead end because only the ones lucky enough to have proper timing and age on their side, ever become really successful.

You are incorrect, we do NOT do the same job. RJ pilots continuing to assert that their job is the same as a 4 man crew on a 10 day trip all over the world does not make it so.

Funny, I think you just described yourself....... As long as we all don't get displaced soon.

You mean to say we all don't take the responsibility for safely flying an airplane from Point A to Point B and having its contents arrive (be it passengers or cargo) unscathed at the arrival point?

The destinations and the aircraft type might be wildly different, and certain locales offer challenges others do not...but the task of driving the airplane safely is pretty much the same no matter what you're flying or where in the world you are flying it.

It doesn't take a superior airman to fly internationally...all it takes is an International Procedures Course and somebody having their head screwed on straight.

A buddy of mine who happens to fly 777s on trips like you describe is the first to admit that his job is easier than mine flying 4-6 legs per day up down the east coast. He barely stays current with landings.

I begrudge him nothing. But let's try to cut the mysticism of the widebody life.

I have no doubt that long-haul has many challenges. Fatigue is real. I get it. But I used to work for a large European carrier and sat on the jumpseat of one of our MD-11s from ZRH-ATL and for the whole flight wondered when it was going to get tough. The whole flight was less time than a normal duty day for us. During that time they did one take-off and one landing. One of each checklist. Not 6 of each. They did their fuel checks and nav checks. And ate breakfast. Then lunch. Then they took some breaks and watched a movie. Then they landed in ATL and went to the hotel.

If flying long-haul was as challanging as some folks make it out to be, those senior guys would be fighting to get RJs on the list at their companies so they could fly the easy RJ trips.

I guess that's not happening, is it?

True, but that doesn't mean I don't fight for what I think is right.

The thing you have to remember is that regional unions are fighting an uphill battle that started in the basement. The entire idea of a regional from mainline management's point of view was to save $$$. Everything at the regional can be cheaper. New ground crews, even in the hubs that haven't been around for 15-20 years. New crew members who they can pay very little cause they are building off "commuter" contracts. New gate agents who again haven't been in the job for the long haul and depend on them for a retirement. The regionals have replaced a whole bunch of career-type jobs with temporary ones. Why are they temporary? Because when a regional workforce gets too pushy and expensive guess what? They are contract labor, you can just have someone else fill the contract. As long as each carrier (like Delta) has many regional partners, we will never even come close to closing the gap in work rules and pay between us and mainline. And even if we do, we will simply be replaced by another cheaper regional. The only way we would be able to change this is to have a base contract (that is very respectable) for each mainlines regional partners, or, only have one regional for each mainline carrier, guaranteed. If we are ever going to see any stability and descent improvement, this is what we all should be fighting for.

Yes, you could.

IBT has been decertified, or in is the process of being decertified, at multiple regionals.

RAH pilots are extremely fed up with the poor representation we have received.

If ever there was a time to pry us away from Hoffa, it is now!

True that....

No, I said that we don't do the same job.

Don't start believing your own hype. Your "buddy" may think that he has it easier than you, but the toll his body takes is a whole other matter. One that you don't comprehend.

The language barriers he fights on a daily basis is one you don't comprehend.

The knowledge that he possesses outside of an "international class" is that which you don't comprehend.

The body count in his airplane, and the associated revenue it and the cargo creates buries a 50 seat RJ.

The 737 pilot flying into Tegucigalpa does indeed possess extra skill which you do not comprehend.

Knowing what to do, and subsequently actually doing it when you have smoke in the cabin 2.5 hours from anything that is not water in the middle of the night is something the rj pilot does not comprehend.

Knowing which alternate is better for medical emergencies and which merely meet the minimums are things RJ pilots do not comprehend, and are not taught in "international ground school.

Knowing what to do with an engine failure over critical mountainous terrain is something that the vast majority of RJ pilots do not face daily.

Experience in the ITCZ is something that books and RJ pilots have not the experience with.


While all of these things certainly can be learned, they are merely a few examples of how we indeed do NOT do the same job. There is more to comparison than the "ease" you so callously refer to. Grow up junior.

True, but now pull that same 63 year old international captain out and put him in a Saab in Memphis in July with a 7 leg day. You'll probably find yourself in a single pilot airplane because that captain just kicked over with heat stroke and a heart attack. Look we all do a job. Some things are very similar some are different. Personally you can keep your long haul international flying. I'll be very content to finish my career in nothing bigger than a 737 or A321 and never leave North America. But that's just me. I have no desire to spend 13 hours at a time running a whale between the US and Japan.

There is one way to improve the regionals....stop voting yes on crap contracts. PNCL should be next up. MUST have a 12% raise across the board just to keep up with inflation...2nd yr. FO pay has to jump to $34 MINIMUM...MUST HAVE some form of retro--retro is MOST important...it is money in the bank...contracts can be conceeded...show me the $$$. EX: This should bring 4th yr pay for CA to $67/hr (approx) on the 200 at 12% (didn't do the math, just est.)...We should try to raise the bar to at least $70...granted, pay rates aren't everything and soft money means a ton. But the rates grab the headlines.

Also, for all regionals who's mgmt takes over 2 yrs to negotiate a contract (hello pncl), a no vote is in order to send the message to mgmt: "STOP JERKING THE PILOTS AROUND". We MUST force management to respect us. A "NO" vote would definately get their attention.

You could probably say the same of you, oh CRJ900 captain. That's about the time you guys start to get arrogant--making captain on a CRJ. That brings up a whole other point: leaving the country--malaria and the various bugs which can get you out 'chonder. Yet another reason to demonstrate how the jobs are different, and thus higher compensation on the widebody.

The 63 year old will learn the saab much faster than the 22 year old will learn the mass management, worldwide ops, language tricks, weather phenomena, topography, metrics of the 777/767/A330.

We can play the bigger schwartz contest all day, and you'll lose. You've already missed the point, so why bother?

Different mission, different training. You really think the Legacy wide-body flight crews are the best pilots of the entire airline, give me a break. They had senority to hold the position and went through the training for it. Don't sit here and tell me one leg a day is harder than 7, I don't care if you have to find your position using cellestial navigation, one leg is easier than 6-7 a day. Your problem is that you think your crap doesn't stink and you deserve to be called the better pilot cause you sit in front of a bigger plane. If you want to justify higher pay, stop whining to us, you are preaching to the choir. If your life is so hard, why don't you bid back to a smaller plane, or if you can't, why don't you take a posh CRJ-900 job, I'm sure Go-Jets would love to have a guy like you.

The last couple pages are proof-positive that regional airline pilots don't have the industry cornered when it comes to arrogance and self-importance.

That's what I said. I would add different experience. Different job.

Never said it.

Never said it. However, I have done 10 leg days in the regionals. I have done 1 leg days over the ocean. I beg to differ with your position. You apparently do not have experience in both.

Nope. Never said it. I said the larger plane justifies it's higher compensation. It requires more knowledge and danger, while allowing less margin for error than your jet. it's also faster--which is also part of the basis for pay on ALPA pay scales.

Thus, the regional mentality. Go back and read again. Who said anything about being on a widebody currently. Who is griping about life being hard. Who is the ego-freak here? You guys are the ones who brought up the disparity issue, I explained it, and now you are the ones getting your panties in a wad. Yet another example of the inferior mentality of the message-board types of regional pilots. You guys have the mindset of fire-ready-aim instead of taking a deep breath an examining things for what they actually are, not what you think they are.

I will agree that regional pilots do not have the market cornered, but the last few pages actually provide evidence otherwise. :rolleyes:

You've claimed your job is harder. More dangerous. More stressful. You've gone so far to say regional pilots lose the "bigger schwartz" contest all day - and they're the ones that are arrogant? YGBSM!

Having never flown widebodies internationally, I say you're job isn't any harder, any more dangerous, any more stressful, than somebody flying an RJ or a Saab domestically in the US. Here's why:

The dangers and the risks in the two radically different types of flying (as the job itself - airplane Point A to Point B unscratched, is the exact same) differ greatly, but there's no way to quantify one being any "harder" or "easier" than the other because they are so different. One leg 8-12 hours with an augmented crew provides different issues and different risks than 6-8 legs per day. An issue you have with widebody flying is landing currency & proficency; an issue regional pilots have is complacency due to doing the same thing (up and down) over and over and over again.

It'd be really great if people could drop the f'in airline vs. military vs. corprate and regional vs. mainline crap and just acknowledge each segment of the industry is DIFFERENT - not any better or worse or harder or easier than another...