With all this talk about pay..the problem is.
 

When I first earned my private in 1996 the typical route to the airlines was something like... be a CFI while you try to find something, anything multi or multi-turbine to fly, even for free, to build time to get to a regional. From there you flew a Saab or EMB for a regional and didn't get paid dick. BUT.... that's okay. Upgrade was pretty short, and for the most part, most of the guys I started with in 1996 are now with Southwest, Jetblue, or one of the fractionals making 40k-60k as FO's. In another 5-10 they will probably be 80-100K captains.

Like anything, you gotta start at the bottom. NOW.. .the problem lies not with the pay but with the no upgrade in sight problem. Most people I know flying for SW etc... also started at 18K, be it with a regional or flying a barron single pilot IFR in Michigan. However, within a few years they were able to overcome it and move on. The problem today is, I don't mind making 25K a year as a 2-3 year FO at a regional but as it stands now, the regionals are not as much as a "stepping stone" as they used to be. Why?? Because there is no choice. I don't believe the regional airlines were intended to be career airlines.

As furloughed OH, I think I have to get out. I think it's time to find something else. Even if they recalled, My kids will be ready for college about the time I would be eligable for upgrade and... I just can't provide for them at that point in their lives on 30K fo pay.

I guess what I am trying to say is....the regional pay scales are okay I guess if the system worked like it was supposed to. 2-3 years FO, 2-5 as captain followed by being picked up by a major or fractional. It's just not that way anymore.

All good points.

Go find a real career and fly for fun.

Even that is tough right now.

And that's the issue - a "regional" pilot is no longer paying dues for a few years with the realistic expectation to progress to a "major". Instead, because of [bankruptcy induced] scope relaxation at the majors regional flying is expanding and mainline flying is shrinking. You don't have to be an economist to figure out what that does to manpower needs. Regional" flying has suddenly becomes a career prospect.

In the last 20 years "Regional flying" has gone from true regional routes flying turboprop equipment under part 135, to narrowbody jets flying near-transcon segments under part 121. Major airlines are effectively outsourcing narrow body flying and again, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the career progression for labor.

On the other end of the spectrum, American, United, and Continental are actively lobbying for Anti Trust Immunity. ATI, if passed will outsource US airline jobs that currently operate International routes to overseas workers. This is a big deal that's getting very little press from any of the national unions. If you haven't done so already - read this thread and TAKE ACTION it only takes a few minutes. http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ght-scope.html

Pilot compensation should be suitable to support a family with work rules that allow a decent quality of life. Are we there? And what are you willing to do about it?

It's hard to do it with a family. If you're single, it's easy to find another carrier, you simply just have to look outside your home country.

With a family, it's one of the most difficult things to do these years.. unless of course you inherit sufficient funds to support your family.

Thank-You.

Excellent point. Leading up to this point making the situation ripe for this is that, in the last 15 to 20 years, due to our very lax immigration policy and the sprouting of countless flight schools catering to foreign students, we've had an influx of foreign pilots, mostly from Europe, but also from South America who wind up staying here in the US, taking US pilot jobs from US citizens. For example, I've met numerous British pilots who came over here to learn to fly because it is so much cheaper to fly here then in their own country and then they get a job with a US airlines like NWA, Airtran, DAL and others.

Yes, pilot compensation at the regional level in the US is not adequate to support a family.

On Board
 

I have been saying this stuff for years. It is difficult to impossible to make it in this industry with a family in tow and be able to preserve some kind of QOL. Even if you upgrade the prospects of making the jump to the majors is becoming a long shot.

When I reached the end of my trail I had to choose what was best for my wife and children and I am glad that I did, however it is a tragedy to have so much invested in a profession that has become a dead end for many.

I don't know if anti-trust legislation will make things better. If wages were able to increase then everyone will have their hands out. Pilots, Flight attendants, rampers, cleaners, mechanics, office people, aircraft leasing companies will all want a pay raise. If that happens then you know that ticket prices will jump up. Demand will decrease and the airlines will once again begin to shrink. A good deal for those who already have a job at the majors. Not so good for the next generation of pilots.

My highest hopes lie in the death of GA. As the cost of training continues to increase the flood of pilots might begin to taper off a bit.

Skyhigh

How has foreign pilots effected the issue? In the early 90’s I was told by a Mexican Corporate pilot I knew that a small regional airline in Michoacán Mexico needed pilots and since I wanted to travel Mexico, he suggested that I work for them and live down there for awhile. I traveled to Michoacán and inquired about the possibilities of working for them and they informed me I needed to be born in Mexico to be employed as a pilot for an airline in Mexico. In the mid 90’s in California, I wanted to get my CFI and do some instructing at the local airport by my house. At the time they had mainly foreigners there and most of them were from the UK. Most of the other airports in the area were primarily instructing Japanese students so this seemed like the best option. I was trying to get some signal that they would be willing to hire me once I got my CFI and but I found out from one of the instructors that they had some sort of contract to instruct and employ and certain amount of students per year and that they were behind, so my employment would be likely right away. I was also told they were to get the hours needed and return to the UK, but almost all of the ones I knew married American women, got Work permits once the student visas expired, and eventually entered the Regional’s. However, on the other hand I’ve been told there’s not too many foreigners employed by the regionals. If there was a influx of foreigners into the regional market, that would keep the wages down. But if foreigners have entered the market, is there just too many pilots for the jobs out there?
What is the actual catalyst to the supply and demand problem? I wish I could have worked in Mexico, but I also, wonder if most countries are like that.

The ATI will allow airlines to have owned route authority flown by foreign carriers. If labor is too expensive at American Airlines than BA will fly the AA routes. If AA and BA labor is deemed too expensive than just admit the Bulgarian national airline into the One World alliance and let them fly it.

The ATI has the ability to whipsaw airline labor on a global scale. Should the ATI legislation pass, it won't be a good deal for any US airline employee.

As it relates to regional flying, the ATI will further reduce any opportunity at the "majors" for traditional career progression.

The regionals used to be the stepping stone to the majors and they are as long as the pilot pipeline is moving at full speed. Unfortunately the regionals continue to grow and mainline carriers will continue to shrink and only operate large equipment between major markets. Due to age 65 and the economy a regional pilot might be an FO for 5yrs or more. The day of the fast upgrade is gone and it will return to the way it used to be, long upgrade times. The situation is not going to improve any time soon, I will guarantee you that there will be more furloughs, UPS, FEDEX, DAL, these are the next on the chopping block. They will never take steps to raise the entry requirments, or to raise pay. THE COMPANIES DON'T HAVE TO. Regional carriers do not care if you get paid enough, they never will.

Open Skies
 

I have wondered about this kind of thing coming to pass. My understanding is that global shipping has gone to contracted cheap international labor. A crew can come from a third world company and man a ship at a third the cost of what a local union crew would cost.

What is to stop a major airline from doing something similar? If ATI comes to pass could we see American Airlines jets being flown by a Pakistani crew? Could we see the day when major airlines set up overseas cadet programs in the third world to train pilots for the american market?

Skyhigh

Why don't you mind making 25k as a 2-3 year FO? You honestly think that is fair wages for ANY professional with 2-3 years experience?

Agreed, the regionals are no longer stepping stones to major airlines. The regionals have grown into larger aircraft, and larger routes, resulting in fewer and fewer mainline jobs being available. That trend will continue, and anybody hired in the last 5 years had best plan on being at a regional for a long long long time.

If you could get more people to understand that without having to sacrifice 2-3 of their life before realizing there is no future at regionals so long as people continue to be willing to perform a profession for general labor wages.

I disagree. The entry level pay at regionals is not commensurate with the level of education, experience, training or liability involved with the job.

The never ending supply of young pilots with SJS and false dreams of doing as you say, 2-5 years at a regional, then going to a major; are the primary reasons that nothing has changed. The regional managements haveb been playing on these false hopes for years now. Hopefully, the press being generated over the issue will cause many folks to change career paths prior to being locked into this one.

Current scope provisions in most legacy contracts prevent anyone other than a pilot with a line number at that airline from flying jets in the companies livery. However, the end around is to allow route authority to be operated by a third party alliance partner. If Cabatoge is the ultimate boogie man in terms of harm to US pilot labor, the ATI provisions on the table are a close second.

ATI would allow airlines to farm out International route authority previously operated by US airlines to third party vendors in much the same way legacy airlines contract to regional "fee per departure" airlines in the US. Unfortunately few CBAs address this and the consquences are potentially devistating. If allowed to grow to fruition, forgein carriers would fly the International segments and fee for depature "regional" airlines would fly the domestic segments. Current legacy airlines would have no reason to operate aircraft and would becopme brand managment holding company.

Should ATI pass, I don't think the US landscape for pilot jobs will dry up overnight, but stage will certainly be set for dramatic change over the next 2 decades.

It's already happening at United with the Air Lingus deal; United sells tickets and Air Lingus operates the jets without Air Lingus crews.

United, Aer Lingus forge 'an unusual linkup' -

The 2010 timeframe is to see if ATI passes, if it does you can be sure that will be more to come.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ght-scope.html

Do NOT try to drive the nail in the coffin of General Aviation. It still is and always will be the heart and soul of all of aviation in this country. Tell me you didn't learn to fly through General Aviation. After 36 years in aviation, I still hold high hopes (naivete abounds!) that things will get better and turn around. I always wanted to be an airline pilot, got my chance two years ago (RAH), then quit because the dream got kind of erased by the way things are today. I am very happy staying in GA and do not regret the decision to resign from RAH when I did. 121 flying today is NOTHING like what it was when I first learned to fly (1973). Sorry for the rant, but I still hold on to a little piece of that dream.

Alright
 

Ok, I will not drive the nail into GA. :) However something needs to be done to restrict the flow of professionally minded pilots.

Skyhigh

No, it's more like... something needs to be done to restrict the flow of professionally minded pilots willing to work for nothing, with no QOL in exchange for flying a jet....

Raise the Min's to at LEAST holding an ATP to become an FO and you will drop a large chunk of the "me now" generation who won't put the time and effort into obtaining the required experience first... that would slow the tide of I'll fly for free folks.

The AMA controls the number of doctors and surgeons, develops revenue streams to healthcare, and provides avenues to specialize their craft.

We do none of that. In fact we do many things counter to it.

If the AMA was tasked to "fix" the pilot profession they would do the following:

(1) Part 121 ops could only be flown by pilots who both held an ATP MEL w/PIC type. No one with less than 1,500 hours would fly part 121.

(2) FAA exams for Commercial/Inst, CFI, FE, ATP. Would be rewritten. No answer book "memorize" the questions without understanding of the subject material. You would have to comprehend the subject matter to pass the test.

(3) No part 61 schools for anything above private.

(4) Part 141 schools required for anything above private. Part 141 schools would be aligned with major universities. Undergraduate degree required BEFORE entry into aviation program. Undergraduate degree would NOT be in aviation.

(5) Entry into 141 school would be by competitive selection based on:
(a) ACAT (Aviation College Admission Test) score,
(b) Undergraduate GPA
(c) Interview with faculty team selection officer

(6) 141 school would be 4 years long and be similar to military flight school with a follow on in test pilot school.

(7) Board certification and specialty training for various types of flying.

(8) Recurrent certification and testing beyond current FAA/Airline requirements.

Before anyone is offended and feels these hoops to jump through are too high, let me ask this: If the current hoops are so low, so easy, that anyone can jump through them, what good is jumping through them if by the time you do it there is no reward at the end?

Setting the hoops low creates a perpetual surplus of pilots that will always expand and contract with the market. This is why there never is and never will be a pilot shortage. Just lower the hoop a little more if needed.

Let me also ask this: If all of the above was in place; The left seat guy on 3407 was being paid 175K; The right seat gal was being paid 150K; Do you think 3407 would have happened?

I have been flying since 1976. I know the answer.

Some are going to respond with “That level is too hard and not required for the job”. Explain to the family members of the passengers of 3407 what level is enough because to them the current level is not good enough.

The most difficult aviation duty I have ever had to perform was to knock on a door at 1:45am and tell a next-of-kin their family member was dead. Hoops 1-8 would have been easier.

Lower a little bit
 

I don't know about that. It might lower it a little bit however it seems to me that those who would be deterred by an extra year or two before reaching the regionals are not destined to remain in aviation for long anyway.

Most pilots are obsession driven. Pay is nice but they are usually willing to climb over their grandma to get into the flight deck. Pay, flight time, cost of training are all surmountable obstacles in their way. Adding another one will only serve to slow them down a bit. They will still cross picket lines and fist fight in the streets to work for less than minimum wage.

Skyhigh

Agreed. And make 121 carriers (regionals esp.) safer.