Well one thing's for sure there hasn't been this much public or gov interest in change even after the Pinnacle 410 and the Comair wrong runway takeoff, even though I think they were just as bad if not worse. The media had something to work with on this crash and they ran with it.

Good USA Today letter. I agree. I'm always flying with people with little experience into place like DCA and ATL. It gets pretty stressful for me at times.

You're funny. lol. Yeah, lets go and pay for 500hrs of flight time. That would be $70,000 for 500hrs at $140/hr, which is typical for a 172sp in my area, not including an instructor for an additional $40/hr. If this were the case I would not have even considered being a pilot.

As a civilian/military pilot, I find it a bit alarming that you can fly for an airline, but you do not require an ATP license. It isn't called the Airline Transport Pilot license for nothing. Additionally, I think there should be some type of requirement for ensuring that captains meet a certain level of experience before being qualified.

I don't care about "how burdensome" this would be to the industry. Or, "this never would have prevented this crash."

Doctors spend years going through medical school and residencies making sure they are qualified. Here in the US, because of the poor leadership and oversight by the FAA, we have a "training" system that allows shortcuts. Many individuals pay to get quick-rated and even pay some companies to only learn what's on the knowledge tests. These people end up getting certified without ever having to demonstrate that they've mastered their trade.

And I will be honest and say that I indeed used a company to ensure passing the knowledge test. However, it is no wonder that many ICAO countries WILL NOT accept an FAA ATP license because they're a are pretty much worthless.

-Fatty

I still think the main problem was the easy credit available to students for the flight academies with the guaranteed interviews for graduates at the regional operators. This is what opened up the flood gates post 9/11 and allowed the cheap labor to fuel the codeshare growth. Follow the money!

Low time pilots at the commuter level is not a new thing. The difference was 25 years ago many of my peers got hired with 1,000 hrs flying 19 pax turboprops and smaller piston jobs, not 35-90 pax turboprops and jets.

There were also more accidents. One local turboprop operator crashed three times while I was attending college out west. If you look back at accident stats for the late 60's thru mid 70's, you'll find many domestic turbojet accidents flown by experienced crews, mostly involving unstable approaches in IMC or at night. The learning curve was steep, and it took a long time to get stablized approaches established as the norm. No EFIS back then, it was all done with VOR's and DME or some with RMI/ADF.

I personally think the regionals have amassed a very good safety record overall, RJ's and turboprops alike, and hopefully that will continue.

If the FAA required an ATP for FO's all that would happen is the 0-hero bottom-feeder pilot mills would make extra money. A large percentage of regional newhires (even during the big hiring boom) already have ATPs. 90% of my newhire class had over 1500 hrs and at least half had ATPs. The Colgan captain had an ATP and the FO could have had one if she had paid 3000 dollars one weekend to get it in a Seminole. Requiring an ATP for hiring is nonsense. There are no more 500 hour FOs. They all have a year experience now at whatever airline they went to. There probably won't be anymore either because airline economics has shifted. This is a moot point.

Raising FO pay isn't gonna help either because that will only encourage people to keep plopping down huge sums of money to fly because they can recoup it quicker.

The real fact of the matter is that flying is inherently dangerous. Yes safety is the number 1 priority always but ultimately people are going to die in flying accidents. Passengers also need to appreciate that if they want low fares on tickets then airlines are going to try and make that happen by creating a viable business model. That means cutting costs. In my opinion, the passengers are smart enough to realize this and they still choose to fly. They have no standing at all to complain. By the same token we know the job and still choose to fly so we deserve what we get as well.

"if she had paid 3000 dollars one weekend to get it in a Seminole."

Good point, how do you explain being certified to be a 'Airline Transport Pilot' flying a light general aviation piston twin? That needs to change

They also get paid a lot more too!

Let me know when you can rent a CRJ to go up with a DPE. Hence why the industry currently allows airlines to hire commercial pilots into the right seat, and the company gives you your ATP when you upgrade in the airplane you're flying.

I think too many people are reading too deep into this. This crash was the result of DOZENS of different inputs, the worst being (for whatever reason, we'll never know), the Captains improper response to a shaker.

We need to stop trying to re-invent the wheel here. Just like in contract negotiations, we need to take one of the most important issues and run with it. If QOL changed in the regionals, I for one would be ecstatic.

Pay, schedules, duty limitations, commuter clauses, sick leave...all these things need to change..and they all fall in the QOL category.

Fix that, and we have a VERY different regional airline industry.

Bravo Mr. Skiles,

Most of my peers ran off to the airlines as soon as they had 500 hours. Now, they're all furloughed and dreaming of the days when they'll be eating those Ramen noodles again.

I on the other hand have spent years building time, gaining real world experience, and yes...living the dream.


I'd be just fine seeing the ATP be set as the minimum to get in the cockpit of a 121 job.

What never seems to get discussed here or anywhere, is it is probably impossible to raise FO pay to a livable wage. Why....because the majority of the pilot group has to vote in favor of it. The company can provide addition capital to the pilot group, however the pilot group has to agree on how that money is distributed....the senior pilots would get the majority of that income. Does any airline have the capital to give 100% across the board raises to all of the pilot group just to bring FO's up to a livable wage?

Unless the government gives an executive order to raise the pay outside of company and union control, it isn't going to happen.

You're a Captain? No offense, but that dribble sounded like something a first year FO would say.

You really don't think that if a company had XX dollars to give to the pilot group, they couldn't simply tag it with a qualifier that xx percentage must go to FO pay or the money is not available for anybody.

ANYTHING can be done if people want it to be done.

Right.....

You are talking to someone that works at the company that THE COMPANY wanted to raise first year pay and THE UNION SAID NO!!!! because it wouldn't benefit the entire pilot group. Yes I too work there and was absolutly disgusted and made it known so.... Yet the decision stood and NOBODY got any raise.

AMEN! Thank you and well put! I am glad that somebody understands what is going on.

Skiles was a CA ? hmmm

In my experience a airline doesn't really care how cost is divided up between a crew once the total crew cost for all seats is agreed on. In other words, a cost of $100 per hour could be agreed on to pay a captain and a first officer. The union then decides that the captain will get $80 and the F.O. $20, or whatever. So, in a sense, the unions are to blame for the low starting pay as well. New hires, or those yet to be hired, don't get to vote on contracts, afterall.

But, that said, an across the board requirement for all new hires to have a 1500 hour ATP would definately force companies (and unions) to increase first officer wages once hiring kicks into gear again. It's simple supply and demand. During the hiring spurt a year or so ago I'd say that only about 10% of the new hires had ATPs. That means that the 1500 hour ATP requirement would take 90% of potential applicants out of contention for a year or two, and then I doubt half of those would ever make it to getting an ATP. Companies would have to pay more to compete for a smaller eligible group of pilots. Since every airline would have to do it they could all absorb it equally/raise fares roughly the same.

Am I wrong in this?

Plus, safety is a matter of degrees. I don't think anybody can argue that in general it's not better to have a 1500+ hour new hire pilot whos been around the block than a 250 hour pilot. I think any captain who has flown with 250 hour pilots can tell you that. I'm not saying they are un-safe. Just less safe and in need of more grooming. After a couple years on the job there really isn't much difference, but you still have that year or two interim.

My example was a little extreme I will give you that. The company could do that, however, regional whip sawing allows management to not provide that capital to the pilot group. Instead raising FO pay would have to come from the shared sacrifice of the higher paid pilots. However, I doubt they would vote for a pay cut to raise the pay of other pilots. That's why I say that an independent party will have to step in to remedy the troubles in the industry. The pilots have no will to make changes, and the company is certainly not going to provide more capital to the pilot group if it can be avoided.

What possible difference could this make? Airlines come and airlines go...PanAm, Eastern, WestAir, CCAir....Fine aviators starting over again, or getting into it for the first time. non sequitur.

What did Mr. Skiles do before US Air?.....where did he get his time?...anyone

And those commuter/regional pilots 23 years ago were flying 1900s, Banderantes, Twin Cessnas, etc. They were not jumping right into a narrow body jet or a very large turboprop with near jet performance.

True you can't rent a CRJ, but, should you hold the same qualification as someone who operates an actual commercial jet with passengers? You and your piston twin are the same qualification as Capt Sully in the eyes of the FAA. You don't find that flawed? How about some sort of weight tier? limitations: up to 12K MTOW 12K to 35K....

But that doesn't make any sense. Why would the airlines pay more if there are only ATP applicants when they could lower the mins and get a whole lot more in the door? You're forgetting about the management side of the picture what are the consequences on them?? Remember they are the ones that are going to feed you at the end of the day. If you're saying that the gov should mandate ATP mins across the board at the regionals that's different but even then we won't truly know if an atp min would be wiling to sell their souls just as much for a jet job. It's all about supply/demand ALPA and company have been trying for decades to work the issues but the trend seems like a desperate road to the bottom.

if i may add my 2 cents....
in the usa commercial / cfi and sic at 250 hours.
in argentina (where i started flight training)
commercial at 240, cfi at 500 and commercial
first class at 900. the commercial first is required
to work as co-pilot in the air transport service.
besides the 900 hours it also requires 25
hours of multi time and passing the atp written.
the atp is a check ride at 1500 hours.
i like the sliding scale aspect.:)
they get their commercial and then do sound
or banner towing, skydivers etc until they get
500 hours and do the cfi course.....

If you are enquiring as to what Sully and Skiles did before USair, I'll let you in on something.

Much like Bill Brasky, Sully and Skiles were both born with ATP certificates and Airbus type ratings. And of course, like Brasky, they built the homes that they were born in. They got into the majors because they both learned to fly 747's at age 6. I believe Skiles actually was the checkairman on the Wright flyer that signed off on the brothers solos. In fact, I think Skiles is actually the father of Martha King, and Sully is Johns father.

All not-seriousness aside, does anybody seriously not realize how much things have changed since then. Being an airline pilot used to be a good job. Pilots actually made money and were respected. When a pilot is skilled enough to fly a transport cateogry aircraft, that is when he should be allowed to go to the regionals. This is a different figure for all pilots!!! Flying pipeline patrol VFR or CFI'ing and doing 16,000 touch and goes with student pilots in a tampico for an extra 1,000 hours to get your regional airline 2,000 hour mins is hardly productive. How does that make you a better pilot?

For certain level of experience see Far 61.159......depends on the operation. Should Scenic Airlines hire only ATP's for the right seat their fleet of Twin Otters? How much more than 1500 hours should a Scenic captain have? One size fits all doesn't always work.

Like anyone needs to know the frequency of a middle marker, or the Latin names for all the bones in the inner ear.

[quote=bryris;613960]It sounds like Sully pretty much threw CRM out the window, was flying AND talking on the radios and whatever else. Skiles basically rode down with the rest of them.

quote]
Sorry, bud, but the pre-departure brief with my company goes something like this: "In the event of an emergency, I will fly and talk, you will complete the memory items, then use the QRH to complete the appropriate checklist." I think the CRM on this flight was fine.

OBTW: FAA could change the rules about ATP's quickly. Grandfather in the people who are already at a 121 carrier, but require them to get an ATP at 1500 hours, and all new hires need to get it when they complete their initial checkride if not before. This rule would drive down the number of eligible pilots, thus driving up the salaries required to fill the vacancies.

And if you think this would "bankrupt the airlines", let's do math. Say you fly a 50 seater with an average load of 70%, and average four legs a day. That's 140 passengers a day. You do that 200 days a year: that's 28,000 passengers. Increase ticket prices by ONE DOLLAR and you can give both the captain and F/O an additional $14,000 a year. TWO DOLLARS and an F/O could make almost $50K.

Those numbers seem reasonable to anyone?

"If you're saying that the gov should mandate ATP mins across the board at the regionals that's different but even then we won't truly know if an atp min would be wiling to sell their souls just as much for a jet job."

Yes, that's what I'm saying. The government should mandate that only 1500 hour or better ATPs can get hired at an airline.

I'm sure many ATPs would work for crap as well. They already do. But the point of this is supply and demand.

Let's say that next year there are 10,000 pilots with more than 250 hours and at least a commercial certificate who want to be new hire airline pilots.

Let's say that the regionals need 2,000 pilots next year. Obviously the airlines will find enough bodies to work at any price if 10,000 are available.

But, lets say that out of the 10,000 pilots seeking work only 1,000 have ATPs. If the airlines are required to hire only ATPs, but there are less ATPs available than pilots needed (2,000 in my example) then the airlines are going to have to compete for those ATPs. Pilots can go to the highest bidder. Airlines will be forced to raise pay to attract a limited body of pilots. Poach from one another, if you will.

Now, I'm just guessing on these figures. Who really knows how many pilots will be hired and when. Someone probably has a better sense on pilot numbers than I do. But I think it's a fairly good estimate that 9 out of 10 guys looking for regional work don't have ATPs now-a-days.

Supply and demand. Even politicians skeptical of interfering with the market will get behind that. (And no, I don't think requiring an ATP is interfering with the market any more than requireing a driver's license is).

Look at the hiring practices at the Majors ~ 45 years ago, many had 250-hours-and-a-commercial, although they were often getting the engineer seat of a Constellation or an Electra.

For the copilots? I DISAGREE. How about some experience?

I would propose instead that the Congress or DOT/FAA pass rules/regulations requiring that ALL passenger flights by (for instance) Continental be operated by aircraft on the Continental Airlines FAR 121 Air Carrier Operating Certificate, and all pilots of said aircraft are full employees on the Continental Airlines seniority list, rather than the current practice of defrauding the public with look-alike "Continental" colors and paintjobs. That would require the same training, and non-whipsawed pay.

The flights would be more expensive, but the race to the bottom could stop. Requiring an ATP is simply a distracting ruse to "fix the problem", to get attention diverted from the central problem: regional airlines, with low pay and crappy work rules, posing as "part of" the major airlines, driving the profession down with what are really (in effect) "alter-ego" airlines.

Having an ATP wouldn't fix anything. It would just be eyewash, like the TSA song-and-dance at the terminal.

This is the very point of debate that should precipitate the change that is required to provide all those experienced pilots at the regionals with the good schedules and pay by requiring a passenger airline holding out to the public to fly only under their own name. If I buy a ticket from LAX to LRD on Continental, it should be flown by Continental pilots, If they want to use a Q400, fine, it should be flown by Continental pilots.

But the crash has drawn attention to the problem, and now is the time to straighten out what should never have happened in the first place, when pilots at the majors were too good to fly a CE-402. How and if any purchase and/or integration would happen is a whole other problem. But once the Federal rule is promulgated, movement and change would happen, and lots of opportunity would occur. This is not to say that ExpressJet, or SkyWest, or even Colgan is unsafe because they are regional airlines, but to disallow the "outsourcing" dodge ("loose" scope) the major airlines have been allowed (by unions!) to use for so long. Have Congress define scope and everything else will follow.

I am guilty with all of you in the fact that i don't know why i continue reading these threads. This thread is more repetitive than the last rap song i tried listening too. alright jokes aside.

1. How many of you on this forum paid for your ATP?

2. This argument with paying higher wages and and attracting the cream of the crop is very weak. It is very basic. It would obviously attract more people. This would likely increase the crop. Not necessarily the cream of the crop. I don't think all of us came to the crossroads and thought, "hell i could go to McDonald's or go fly planes." For me it was between engineering and this. I don't really know many happy engineers. Go figure now i find out i don't know happy pilots. Wasn't planning on shooting for ditch digger until i came on here.

3. What is going to happen to these qualified candidates when gas prices go back through the roof again. That = bad news for barons and better news for light sports. Also how about user fees. Another barrier to entry into this profession. That definitely will not help. It seems to me the only way to get the multi time in the next few years will be go to a mill or at least instruct at one. Mom and Pop will continue to ditch the old multi's.

4. The number of delicious red beers i have had reading this post. If my grammar or ideas suck, so be it. I am not the cream.

Turbo...who do you think is going to be paying for 500 hours of 141 time??

No, admitedly I didn't pay for my ATP.

But, when I was first hired at a regional I had 1283 total hours and 205 multi-engine, plus my ATP written done. If waiting another 217 hours to get on with an airline would have meant better pay I would have gladly flight instructed/flew charter a few extra months and paid a few hundred bucks for an ATP check ride.

Long term I think ATPs to get hired part-121 is a good idea.

Is that a good thing...that this job is being made easier by the day? A guy I know in Alaska flying the bush...he told me he's not so sure about all the safety/warning/automation "bull." He says that in the years since GPS/Capstone and remote radar that he has had to fail countless Pilots on checkrides when they've gotten head-over-heels lost when the gadgets are turned off. Mentoring won't do it. You need to go back to the basics, and realize that a CRJ is not some computer, but just another airplane. And gee-wiz, it actually hand-flies alright too :rolleyes: He also said he's worried about his career -- as the job gets easier and easier, requiring less skill and local knowledge, they'll start hiring low-time CFI's from the lower-48 by the hundreds, driving salaries down through the floor. THAT should not be forgotten...because we're in the same boat here. Soon enough flying a CRJ will be simpler than hopping in a Civic -- and then almost anybody can do it.

What?! I've witnessed CRJ Captains that can't barely keep the dirty side down without the Autopilot :eek:

Is that the Sound of Music?? LoL

Gulfstream Academy, I believe...covered in another thread?

Yes they do and it beg's the question again one more time and that is are passengers willing to pay more for a ticket ?
I think we all know the answer .



Fred

Don't know about you but I had spent enough money to get through my CFI. Don't see how you expect kids to pay for 500hrs.

You can't be serious.

Originally posted by Sniper

Don't want to be a CFI, have no talent for teaching, have bad eyes so the military doesn't want you? Fine. Go fly piston freight with your commercial license. Just don't expect you should be able to perform as a airline pilot without being licensed as such.[/quote]



Sniper I am missing your point. No pun intended but IFR 135 can be challenging.

I get your point. But ATP mins are not practical, not to mention hiring is done by the market conditions at the regionals. The only way that what you are saying is possible is if the gov itself forced the regionals to hire only high timers which will never happen. It's none of their business to tell the airlines how to run their hiring, especially right now. As I stated before these pilots were high timers, the fo had 1600 at the time of hire and a few hundred hours on the q, that wasn't the issue. The people that have any power over this matter will be looking at the training quality and schedules at the regionals.