Hudson Crash FO's Letter to USA Today
 

Thoughts?

I don't know what Mr. Skiles did before working for USAir, but with all due respect it seems like he may be forgetting what life was like on a regional level. Of course he had greater experience when hired at USAir and of course both CA and FO had ATPs. While higher ATP mins and ATP Certs. required for all crewmembers sounds great, implementation would be difficult as gaining the experience pays worse than a regional by far! It seems to create a catch-22 that pay won't go up until experience increases and experience won't increase unless pay does.

Air travelers deserve highly experienced pilots in cockpits - Opinion - USATODAY.com

Air travelers deserve highly experienced pilots in cockpits

Jeff Skiles - Oregon, Wis.
As the co-pilot of the flight that landed in the Hudson River in January, I can speak to the fact that experience matters in my business ("Air safety is being outsourced to the lowest bidders," Letters, Friday).
Pilots and people in the airline industry have known for some time about the issues brought up by the commuter plane that crashed into the Buffalo area in February.

(Status of commuter flights: Regional airlines carry about one of every four passengers in the USA, according to the Regional Airline Association./ 2006 photo by Al Behrman, AP)

When I was hired at my airline 23 years ago, I had nearly the flying time of both the captain and the first officer of the Buffalo flight combined. That was the norm then. Because of dramatic reductions in compensation over the past 10 years, airline careers are no longer attractive to the best and the brightest. The race to find the applicant who will work for the minimum salary has brought about the pilot with the minimum of qualifications and experience.
The Federal Aviation Administration's requirements to hold a pilot certificate need to be dramatically increased to reflect the vast responsibilities of our profession. The minimum qualification level I suggest would require both pilots in the cockpit, not just the captain, to hold an airline transport pilot's license (ATP), as all pilots do at my airline.
Furthermore, there needs to be a significantly higher experience level than ATP minimum standards to act as a captain in a transport category aircraft. Airline flying is dramatically unforgiving of mistakes. American air travelers deserve experienced, qualified professionals at the controls of their next flight.

Makes sense to me, I agree with Skiles.

Agreed! Nice letter

I agree with the "why it's necessary" but anyone have any ideas on the "how to make it happen" part?

I agree, I also like the idea that a few people have put on here before that the COMM MULT rating should be harder.

Mr. Skiles,

THANK YOU!!

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea and have been championing the concept for a long, long time. I truly hope that it gains speed in wake of the tragedy.

YB23,

I don't think the earnings potential while gaining the experience to be employed by a regional is a factor on anyone's radar, only the experience.

People with that kind of flight time and experience probably wouldn't be caught dead applying to fly for a regional to make $23 an hour. With that kind of flight time, you can find a Part 135 gig that pays much more. What were regionals paying back when Mr. Skiles was flying for them? Was it much more? I thought the regionals always paid terrible wages. I completely agree with him, but he seems to point out that wages have decreased (which they have at the major level).

How to make it happen? It won't. The NTSB has no influence over the FAA and neither do pilots. These Part 121 and 135 companies lobby to the FAA to get their way just like special interest groups do with the government. Sadly, it will probably take more than this crash to make something happen. I sure hope not!

Gaining that experience paid FO Shaw more than Colgan did:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation...027/417485.pdf

"He reported her finances as stable with no changes other than the significant pay
decrease since she joined Colgan compared to her previous job as a flight instructor for

Sabena Airline Training School in Mesa, Arizona"

I agree with this letter. While I agree with it, I think the change needs to start at the flight schools. You shouldn't be able to leave a flight school as a student with less than 250 hours. 141 Training schools should have students graduating with near 500 hours. Then going on to instruct or whatever to get experience. Getting hired at an airline though should be closer to 2000 hours.

Give me a break.
What's does a chip detector do again.. oh ya, it detects chips just like the name implies.

Give the guy a break. He just lost his wife. Of course he is going to say that she was head and shoulders above everyone else. It is obvious they BOTH screwed up badly and neither were head and shoulders above anyone else.

I agree with having a ATP being the minimum requirement to fly for the airlines. It makes sense for safety. I also think it would drive up first officer pay. It's supply and demand. How many guys with ATPs are available for the airlines to hire vs guys with 250 hours? Once the airlines get hiring again I think they would have to raise pay to compete for new hires with ATPs.

When I was a new hire in 1998 the average new hire had 1000-2000 hours and had lots of previous experience flight instructing, flying charter, flying checks, etc. When I was a new hire again in 2008 the average new hire had 300 hours and had just got out of flight school and (maybe) had done a very short stint as an instructor at his school. There were a few outliers (me, a couple military guys, a charter guy), but the vast majority recently seem to be in the 250-500 hour niehborhood.

Of course, I'm sure I'm biased in my opinion.

What is with you people just ripping on the dumbest things. That isn't even the reason the plane went down. Yes, they messed up, however I feel that just because you have a load of flight time isn't always going to make you the best and the brightest. It all depends on the individual.

Quote: "When I was hired at my airline 23 years ago, I had nearly the flying time of both the captain and the first officer of the Buffalo flight combined. That was the norm then. Because of dramatic reductions in compensation over the past 10 years, airline careers are no longer attractive to the best and the brightest."

I agree with almost everything he said but the above statement isn’t comparing apples to apples. 99.9% of the pilot’s hired both during his time 23 years ago and even today (or 2 years ago) at mainline have more flying time than both Colgan pilots when hired. Remember that he’s comparing the hiring practices of US Air to regional airlines. Look at the hiring practices of regional 23 years ago and you’ll see flight times comparable to the FO’s.

I completely agree that an ATP should be a min requirement to obtain an airline pilot job.

I’m also sick of being calling "not the best and brightest" or “untalented” or “not the cream of the crop.” I have 2 degrees, graduated college magna cum laude while playing division I college tennis, I have a very successful business history, this is a second career for me, I started flying long before I turned 10 and I grew up in aviation with both my father and uncle being former MIL and Mainline pilots plus I have NEVER failed a check ride or stage check. I think I and many other “regional” pilots deserve more.

I think that FO Skiles letter was great. He hit on some points that needed to be said.

No offense but do you have any clue what it costs to rent a single or multi nowadays??? Try 250 to 350 per hour for a multi with an instructor. :confused:

While I too agree everyone once online at any airline should have the ATP with PIC type, I must wonder about his comment of everyone at USair having one.... Isn't almost everyone at USair (at least the "easties" where these guys flew) either a current or former USair captain thanks to the way that company has gone in the past 10 years or so? I mean if he's been there for 20+ years and is still a A320 FO then why hasn't he upgraded to captain? This assuming he wasn't at one point and is a downgrade there.

Next point, isn't about 99.5% of all major airline pilots ATP's? And the few that aren't came from the military where they have to perform a paperwork exercise to actually get their earned type ratings and ATP in the civilian world?

The guy who said this:

"My FAA-issued pilot's license does not say "regional flying only." It has my name with a picture of Wilbur and Orville Wright on the back. My point is that you can trust the U.S. airline system. Don't think lowest bidder. Think leanest operator with the sharpest management team.

So go online, search for that lowest fare and keep flying. It's a wonderful and safe world out there."

definitely loses me in his last few sentences. Don't get me wrong...Im not going to drive my aircraft into the ground just because Im paid poorly. But give me a break with the "leanest operator with sharpest management" BS.

I've never understood how an 'airline pilot' as recognized by industry never had to be an 'Airline Transport Pilot' as recognized by the FAA.

The FAR's are written in blood. The only question is, has enough blood be spilled yet to compel the FAA to act?

Well said, CA Skiles!

Agree........................

CPL: CFI, CFII, MEI, Aerial Photography, Sight Seeing, Traffic Watch, Agriculture (crop duster), Pipeline, etc.......

ATP: Airline Transport Pilot

This should be the minimum requirement...................period.

Skiles is a former 737 CA for US Airways. His position in the right seat has everything to do with his seniority within his company.

Yes.

He is putting the carriage before the horse. It doesn't work that way. You can't raise requirements and expect people to show up for a 16000 dollar job. The reason why they had higher requirements back in the day was because the airlines were worth sacrificing for.

I agree with this in theory, but I think the cost of getting an ATP might be cost prohibitive to alot of people. The biggest wallet doesn't equal the best pilot. Perhaps the initial PC should be a PIC type ride for all newhires.

It sounds like Sully pretty much threw CRM out the window, was flying AND talking on the radios and whatever else. Skiles basically rode down with the rest of them.

As a side note, I think that military attitude of "sit over there and don't touch anything", is likely a double edged sword. It worked out in the end though, can't argue with that.

We can all dream all day long about what minimums should be. Minimums will be dictated on supply and demand. Right now, Colgan can adjust their minimums up just by using some whiteout, because they ain't hiring. Once pilots become a commodity again, that'll be thrown out of the window.

I agree, ATP for both pilots.

How to make it happen? Regionals either raise FO pay, or subsidize training. The puppy-mills could start offering 180-day ATP courses for $140K...

90 days for all your basic ratings ($50k/250 hours).

Another 90 days for time building ($90K/1250 hours)...14 flight hours/day for 90 days ;)

I agree with him.

I find him arrogant that just because all the ducks lined up nicely for him and his pax he thinks gods gift to the flying public. (They still dented the plane) :rolleyes:

But I agree with him about ATPs for all.

That is the is the old-school civilian attitude too...the copilot did gear, flaps, and the odd landing (if he was lucky). Some fighter pilots naturally tend to do the same thing...that's why we have all the CRM emphasis these days.

:confused:

People are still sacrificing for aviation. To get into the industry, one must either incur large training costs ($30K or more, at least) or go the military route, incurring the cost of being away from home, giving up years of your life, and even lower pay in order to get the training needed to gain entry into an airline.

There are many who are on the outside of this profession looking in who would pay for the opportunity to fly for an airline. That's certainly a monetary sacrifice, no?

FO Shaw sacrificed her income, her QOL, her sleep, and, ultimately, her life, for 'the airlines'.

You want to be an airline transport pilot? Get the license.

23 years ago the regional level was... US Air (ok Piedmont) and Eastern Air Lines. (At least in Florida where I grew up... In Texas it was WN and Texas Int'l.) Sixty seat jets were Fokker F28s and DC-9s. The routes were intra-state. In other words, regional flying.

One problem with experience in the cockpit is scope. No one wants to stay at Colgan, and few at a top shelf regional, simply because the brighter future is elsewhere. So the most experienced pilots there still ougt to be sitting in the right seat. The right seat of bigger equipment certainly. If all flights sold by CAL were operated by its own pilots, chances are better that a more experienced pilot would have been PIC that night. And the Colgan Captain would have been happy to be a 737 FO.

I tend to agree that an ATP ought to be the minimum requirement for passenger carrying under 121. But far more important is a stable environment where those with the most experience can pass it on to those who need it.

"You need someone older an wiser
Telling you what to do
I am seventeen going on eighteen
I'll take care of you"

Well.. exactly. What is the incentive for future pilots to show up for class under the current airline conditions? Not much. The crew of this flight both had well over 1500 hundred hours so if there's any case that proves that ATP requirements are needed it's not from this crash.

Sharpest management.... AHHHHHHAHHHHAHHHHAHHH!!!!!
He hasn't met our CEO with the public speaking abilities of a retarded rock. He hasn't met one of our VP's that has continuously shot down the half time line proposal for crews to save the company money because "then benefits should be cut in half as well so we will just pay 100 extra people FULL PAY AND BENEFITS instead of half pay and full benefits to the tune of half a mil savings to the company" :rolleyes: With that fiscal sense he should be a senior US senator.....

You get someone else to pay for your hours (either the government or your employer, usually a flight school where you're a CFI). It's what CFI's and military aviators and the like have been doing for years. Being a CFI means you command the aircraft and have to make command decisions while you build the experience needed to meet the ATP minimums. Being a military officer certainly allows you to build command experience and decision making skills - the military aviator just specializes in aircraft specific decisions and skills.

Don't want to be a CFI, have no talent for teaching, have bad eyes so the military doesn't want you? Fine. Go fly piston freight with your commercial license. Just don't expect you should be able to perform as a airline pilot without being licensed as such.

Aren't you a furloughed RJ FO? If so, what's your incentive to accept recall? Even if you're not, what was your incentive to show up for class @ your regional? It's likely similar to the incentive future RJ FO's have today.

I have argued for that from day one here... I tried to get them to type me as a new hire ( I already had the ATP AND a jet type ) and was told not possible. (this in the Avro sim where you could taxi in the right seat including tiller) I tried to get them to type me on the Saab(and test to keep the circ vmc only off) and was told no on both dispite the obvious impending upgrade for all of us in that and several after classes. I can only imagine how much money was wasted bringing people back into a full 2.5 month class for upgrade within 6 months of initial. Granted I ended up skipping Saab captain but at the bottom of the jet list, with any displacements then instead of 2 sims and a PC it's 2.5 months at 900 pay and a full course cost...... You'd think this would be a great money saving opportunity since how much more would it cost to give the PIC checkride initially? From what I know only Skyway gave the option and Compass just outright does type all FO's.... I know of no other regional (and for that matter majors on the domestic equipment) that will even if requested.

There was actually a manager here that agreed with my thinking but thanks to the bankruptcy those thoughts were instantly crushed......

What amazes me is everyone focusing on this crash to fix the future problems. What about the american eagle in indiana killing everyone onboard 14 yrs ago. Both pilots were exprienced and the captain had tona time on the ATR but they were still holding for 40 min in severe icing condition and same exact senerio with flaps retraction and stick shaker and the finally the roll. The gov decided to blame the crash on the airplane design which was fraud, I flew ATR's in worst weather and had friends flying the machine in finland and denmark for so many yrs and no incident. I think we're 15 yrs too late and the feds should have adress the problem then.:confused:

Tin,

You're right.....but I believe that's a GREAT thing! There are way to many flight schools that will just take people's money without regard. If nothing else, raising the minimums will eliminate a lot of people that want to just pay their way through to minimums and start applying. Yes, this will still happen with the richest of the rich but I truly believe it's a GREAT start to eliminating people with more money than sense.

I, very much, want to get back to traditional training methods as a minimum. A four year degree, ATP or Military equivalent......but will settle for something close.

Problem:
Power levers left at idle, airspeed decay...
Cause:
Icing???

To the thread- there is a new generation of pilots that, because of market need and the advances in automation/safety/warning systems, do not need 3000-4000 hours of piston to safely fly today's jets/advanced t-props.

They need proper mentoring...

And if they can't maintain airspeed, altitude and heading, they need to look elsewhere for employment...

ATP for both pilots probably wouldn't have prevented this crash. She had the hours. I can't really blame her for messing up - FOs go to the SIM once a year for a two hour brush up? How many times do you think she practiced stall recoveries in the last year? Probably not very many times.

Anyone who dissagrees with article is insane. ATPs and type ratings should be the norm in the 121 world.
I can't have a conversation with friends outside the industry without trying to explain our current situation to them. Pinnacle pilots screwing in the woods or worse... in the case of their crash. Comairs crash where the FO wouldnt stop talking about all of our companies problems and the Captain that didnt put the parking brake on... and TELL HIM to **** THE HELL UP.

Never mind the nonsense that exists at Mesa, Go Jet, etc.

Everyone outside the airline industry is baffled by the fact that an airplane painted in mainline colors, sold by mainline..... would be flown by some entirely different company whos captain flunked every checkride and was only at the airline for 4 years despite being 47 years old... and an FO that was scared of a normal icing situation.

The publc is calling for single carrier solutions to this problem. ie... no Regional sub-par airlines.

I just hope there has been enough blood priority to make this happen.

Way out of line...
 

How/where did you come up with that conclusion?:cool:

So you're saying Skiles was a Popsicle in the right seat?

Who do you think was running the Emergency checklist trying to get one of the engines started? What level of priority would you give that? CRM generally dictates that in an emergency, one pilot flies and talks while the other pilot runs the checklist.
I'm willing to bet that Skiles had his hands full with the limited amount of time available to him, and a lot riding on his following the checklist precisely to get an engine back on line.

I don't believe there's any reason to question Sully and his CRM skills, or Skiles' actions.

Hog