How much more $ do FO's need to make per year
 

Take three seconds and scan the rest of the post in the regional fourm and you will notice that the majority of the threads deal with sorry FO pay. So my question is how much more per year do you think entry level FO's need to make per year. Say the economy is good but there is still no upgade to captain opportunity in sight, what would be a nice and realistic salary for a very junior FO?

$60,000 first year. $5-10K more per year after that until $100K.

As much as my old roommate who is an IT guy who complains he has nothing to do at work for weeks on end and has no real authority/responsibility. $80,000+

I think 35-45K is a good start for a junior FO.

I agree. While I don't believe we should make $100k on the first year (wouldn't mind, though) I think it can be a reasonable expectation to have to play the starving artist as the company would need to recoup initial training costs and union probation.

However, 2nd year FO should be into the 50s until they reach captain. Captains at the regionals should be in the 100k range where it should stay until you're flying something bigger.

If the airline pay scale was flattened out a bit, instead of now where you make the majority of your money all at once, airline life would be better for everyone.

JMHO

$45k would be realistic and worth the amount of responsibility.

People say "well, Doctors have to work unpaid or lowly paid internships before they make big money..." Most of us did that too - it was called flight instruction. And then there is the fact there is no big money any more...even after 10 years a regional FO is going to be capped at around $40/hr.

Starting at $45k then ramping up by a few grand every year would make it worth my while.

I agree that in theory this is how it should be. However, it will never ever ever happen. Even junior FO's at some of the majors (United, Continental) don't make as much. Junior FO's there start in the 30k range, and make in the high 50-60k range passing year 3 or 4. Unfortunately we can never expect to make as much. Once again, as long as people are willing to work for 17k, that's what will be paid. We are all guilty of it.

In all honesty if I had no student loans, my pay would be fine. Just about three years down and only around 40K a year is a little tough on the finances. I couldn't do this job if it weren't for my wife to cover the gaps. So really an extra thousand a month would be great. Or just figure out a program that reimburses your flight training. It's so stupidly upside down. It may be the wrong mentality but I don't think of flying as my primary career. It's more of a hobby that I get paid a little to do. You can't take as much pride in being a professional pilot anymore since you can't make a living at it. Someday I might be able to but that isn't anywhere in the foreseeable future.

And there in, lies the rub...

You want a realistic scale, something that is reasonably attainable and would provide a MASSIVE raise in compensation based on current book rates making the job financially viable for a large number of highly experienced pilots?

For a 50 seat FO:

$36,000 guarantee for the first year, which is $40/hr assuming 12 bid periods and a 75hr guarantee. 10% raise for the 2nd year, followed by 5% raises for years 3-5, then 3.5% every year thereafter to a 12 year scale.

This would mean a 5th year FO would be making $50.94/hr...more than $10/hr higher than current book ASA 50 seat rates.

How much should regional FOs make???
 

Exactly what they are making. You cant say we are professionals...when a guy with 300 hours of experience is considered to be equal with a guy that has 1500 hours and actually learned a lot more as a long term instructor, or 135 single pilot freight hauler. You are rated by the FO who sets the lowest standard of qualifications. And since most airlines were taking pilots with 300-400 hours they werent really bringing a whole lot to the company. So yeah sure there may be be a guy with 2000 hours...but the airlines dont pay based on experience. So the pay is set to the lowest bidder which is always the lowest qualified people. I would hope they wouldnt pay a guy with 300 hours $40,000. He would not be worth it...and that is the honest truth. Now if all the most junior FOs were ATP or 135 qualified then I would say they are probably worth 24-27K a year. If a guy has a year of 135 experience he is definitely worth 35-40k a year.

One of the problems we face is not being able to change employers which benefits the employer and not the pilot. In most other areas of aviation there is no level of first year pay. So if the employer sucks (Delta) you can go to the greener grass if you think you will be treated better. This is incentive for employers to offer competitive salary.

We are really stuck due to our seniority. Being recently displaced to JFK which is the worst, I would gladly change to an employer (if they were hiring) that offered ANY other base other then JFK. But it is really hard concidering I would have to start out at 1st year pay again.

This industry is the only industry that does this. We compare pilots to doctors a lot and you would have to agree a brain surgeon working at Cedar Sinai who wants to move out of Long Island would never have to stoop to residents pay to move to work at the Mayo clinic.

Someone also said once that they did not make captain because of what they knew or the skill they had aquired but because they were the next number in line, our pay is very much the same. We don't get paid based on our experience, our pay is based on how long we stuck out the B.S!

how about adding a location bonus like most every other company in NY for instance. 35-40K a year will afford you a refrigerator box to camp out in under the FDR drive.

Realistic my friend, realistic. This salary is completely unreasonable for a 1st year regional FO.

ditto..not realistic.

Completely agree

I like this scale the best. 35k minimum to start. Avg pay after a couple years should be in the highs 40s to mid 50s. The regionals can afford this. They should be paying this. But they dangled this carrot called "rapid upgrade" in front of CFIs and we jumped for it. Now everybody is starting to realize the "rapid upgrade" game is a dangerous gamble to make. Ask Colgan FOs.....

What the REGIONAL airlines should do is have their own apartment complex at each hub and provide housing to pilots who want it. Almost like a college dorm. I am not saying that it would be fun for those who lived there. But imagine if you made $15,000 your first year and you didnt have to worry about your housing. I instructed at ATP and lived right at the airport underneath the office building with another instructor. Was it fun? No. Did I get the experience I needed to move on? Yep.

Take year 1 FO pay (at each respective 'regional') and multiply it by 1.5

Cap out all FO pay after year 3.

Thats probably the fairest way to theoretically 'fix' the issue for starters.

35-40k bare minimun as a first year FO at the regional level. and in my eyes they should have at least 1000 hours. no lower than 65k for a first year FO at the majors.

Right... Places with no upgrade in the foreseeable future would love that. Let's see, Horizon and Eagle come to mind. Of course, everyone is stagnant right now but you know what I mean. If you don't then sod off.

Must meet ATP requirements (not necessarily have the ATP, just meet the time) and with 1,000 multi should start at $45,000 a year first year, then $55,000 second year and $60,000 a year after that going up 3% each year.

People like you drag our standards down. You shoot for 40K we get 20K. We shoot for 60K we get 40k...but you want to be realistic. I would never want you to bargain for my behalf.

and are you going to moved the wife and screaming brats in there too?

I think having ATP mins would be a good start. The guy's that are furloughed have a shot at getting back into 121 world and the CFI guys/gal will then fill in behind in the 135 world. Its so simple :rolleyes:

FOs are worth whatever the other guy is willing to work for. Check out regional payscales from back in the 70s and 80s. Guys were making more than what they are now - flying pistons! Check out Calm Air up here in Canada. $41,000 1st year on the Saab 340.

I think 35K per year should be the minimum starting pay for any airline pilot. I think the fact that pilots are worth that much is self evident. Besides that, though, I think it's the minimum amount that a pilot needs to keep themselves in a healthy and rested condition. By that I mean things like be able to have a place to stay, or pay for a motel room to avoid sleeping in crew rooms, parking lots, etc. and being able to eat right, etc. The same goes for being able to provide for One's family. I think 35K per year is what's basically needed to keep a family off food stamps.

I'm also I believer that first officer pay should be two thirds of captain pay. If a first year captain makes 60K, then a first year F.O. should make 40K. If a 20 year captain makes 100k, then a 20 year F.O. should make 66K. Two thirds makes it simple.

I also believe that a 1500 hour ATP should be the minimum requirement to get hired. I think that that alone would cause F.O. pay to rise, plus it would take away the whole argument that "250 hour wonders" should be happy with crappy F.O. wages.

Besides just the pay issue, however, I think some quality of life issues could be adjusted to make it easier for guys who are stuck on the bottom forever in this day and age. I don't think that 10 or 11 days off per month, sitting reserve, was intended to be a long term life style either.

45K, minimum.

While the regional pay is terrible it will never improve until guys are not willing to work for peanuts. As long as there are guys willing to basically fly for free because they "love it" there will be low salaries..... The regional level used to be a stepping stone to the majors. But with todays majors shrinking and regionals growing or at least holding steady the likely hood of ever making the leap to a major is diminishing daily.

Im saying just increase per hour pay across the board, but start out year 1 a little higher than now and then go to there.

Have year 3 FO making $45k at a minimum.
That was the direction I was headed.

It's the truth, and we (up to and including present 747 captains who used regionals as a 'stepping stone' back in the days) are all responsible for it.

Actually the pay has gone down since I worked for a regional (back then they were called commuter airlines). My starting pay back in 87 for flying a 19 seat turboprop was equal or greater than todays starting pay to fly a 50-70 seat jet, plus I got full insurance coverage for me and my family. Now if you factor in inflation guys are starting out now are working for less than 1/2 what it was when I was the same place! One of the differences was back then it took at least 2500TT and 500ME to even get considered for a job.

We'll be back to 200 hour wonders within 5 years. And when they absolutely can't fill a now 100 seat aircraft FO job, only then may the pay go up.

My prediction; There will be "emergency" rule making for a US multi-crew license before anybody gets paid more. Less than 100 hours in the right seat. Just like in the rest of the world now.... except they get paid more than the US.

I find it funny that i make same as a guy flying a 66-86 seat airplane.
And now the RAH guys are nice enough to fly 100seater for regional wages :(
But to answer the qs....48k to start+$800/month allowance (for living in guam)

Well coming from a military background I look at it this way. A 2LT on flight status is paid by the Federal Govt $4572/mo or roughly $55000/yr while he/she is in training. 2 years later as a 1LT it becomes $5667/mo or roughly $68000/yr and after 4 yrs as a newly minted Capt they make $86000/yr. This is of course after they(the Company) have spent approx $1,000,000 in training cost. What you are paid is what your value to a company is. It is based on "your value added" to the product and your level of responsibilities. If the Feds went back to regulating the airlines the Military pay scales would be a good start. Bear in mind that 1Lt Snuffy gets paid a fair wage to be the First officer period...not the equipment he flies. F-15, C-5, B1B, sherpa, helo, or T6...it does not matter. He is an officer of that company and a pilot and is paid as such.
Just my two cents.

I agree with not paying dependent on type of aircraft. A CRJ-200 flies just the same as a CRJ-900 as a 737. Perhaps T-props should be less than jets because they don't fly as high and fast? The only big difference should be a type that goes international (besides Canada and Mexico). Those flight requires very different training. Besides that, there's really no reason why one airplane should pay more than another.

Maybe I was somewhat misunderstood. I'm talking about base salaries. If the company feels that the value added to the company and level of responsibilities are greater with a 777 or 737 and want to pay more amen...but the notion of the original question..."how much more do FOs NEED to make..." is disheartening. There should be a baseline pilot salary PERIOD!

I agree with this 100%. This would be a minimum starting point for discussion. And ATP should be the minimum requirement for Part 121 flying.

I agree, you can't have one with out the other. Meaning, the FAA requires 2 crew members on 99% of 121 aircraft. And for a good reason might I add. Anyone that thinks an FO serves no purpose other than pitot heat and when do we eat, doesn't see the big picture. Most of the time we as FO and CA share duties and responsibilities. Our base training must be equal and the only training that differs between the CA and FO is most of the time company paid. Yes CA deserve a higher pay rate. But why? Because they have more seniority within the company and have about 75% more responsibility over the FO. But that last 25% could be a matter of life and death. So my argument is we are all pilots in the end so there shouldn't be a 100k difference between an FO's pay and CA pay. That was a great incentive to get your but over to the left seat ASAP but we are in kind of a five year chrisis now and people are seat locked for a long time.

I don't see this happening here in the US. There is NO shortage of pilots. DAL alone is planning to cut additional 10% of flying and is planning to cut back on international flying. With the age 65 rule it will be at least another 3 to 5 years before these senior guys start to retire and once they retire, many of their jobs will not be replaced. DAL is reported to be about 1500 pilots overstaffed. All US major airlines (Legacy) are planning to cut back on both domestic and international flying by at least 14 to 17% for 2009 and beyond. If anything, standards for part 121 should go up, not downward.

Forgive the small history correction, but even when the CAB regulated airlines, it had no regulation on airline employee pay. Except for probationary periods, FO pay was almost universally 60% of the CA scale.

I agree except now we have a lot of powerful senators huffing and puffing about the 'unimaginable" wages being paid 121 pilots ...they only get involved when they can make some hay out of it. for example the federal minimum wage act.

Where are you getting your percentages? I know it might hurt some captain's ego but I see it as a 51/49 relationship. The captain will have final say on that flight by that 1%. However, you're both relatively equal in duties and in responsibility of the final outcome of that flight. The way you put it makes it seem like the captain does all the work and the FO just sits around observing. (and yes, I did understand your sentiments)