Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 622465)

You mean to tell me that after all your babbling you don't't know the answer to this? You don't know why these rates are like they are? Here's a bit of advise. Since you don't know go do a little reading. There are several threads where it's been posted time and time again why these numbers are the way they are. Heed and read.

Originally Posted by tpersuit (Post 622469)

I can understand agreeing to those rates under duress of whipsaw to flying 50 seats for those rates, but I just don't see an excuse to fly 99 seats for those rates.

Midwest pilots had an option and they chose the street.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 622472)

There's no way you read all that in 3 min. Apparently you don't understand. How many people do you need to tell you that? I've seen at least a half dozen so far. I have no doubt you don't see why things are. So just accept and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 622411)

I understand your guys frustration. Youre getting bombarded unfairly IMO as many of you weren't even employed by RAH when your current contract was signed.

I know where many of you stand on this issue, you included TD, from reading some of your previous posts. You have my support. It will most likely be a long battle, but I know many will want B6 or better. Safe Skies Guys.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 622465)

You mean to tell me that after all your babbling you don't't know the answer to this? You don't know why these rates are like they are? Here's a bit of advise. Since you don't know go do a little reading. There are several threads where it's been posted time and time again why these numbers are the way they are. Heed and read.


Once again heed and read.

start here: Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia to learn what a contract is and what the legal responsibilities of both sides are required to do by law. Don't turn right around and say you know what a contract is and understand it. If you did you wouldn't be asking what you just did.

After that go here:The Railway Labor Act That's for the Railway Labor Act. Once you read that you'll learn what legal actions labor groups can take. If you have any questions on the RLA feel free to ask and others can help.

I'll spell it out here and you can read those links to get a full understanding of why things are the way they are.

The Midwest guys were able to deny those aircraft for the same reasons XJT, RAH, Comair or anyone else can reject a NEW aircraft introduced to the fleet. The contracts have a clause that usually lays out the process a company must go through to introduce new aircraft. The unions can either agree or not agree on the terms the company provides. If a common ground is not found the aircraft don't get flown. When these aircraft were taken to the Midwest pilot group they exercised their right to say "no deal" to the company. So that was that.

Now lets look at RAH. RAH has three certificates which the company did not want on the same seniority list. The pilots here managed to avoid what happened with GoJets/Trans-states. In order to do that they had to wheel and deal with management just like Mesa did to get Freedom under the same roof. That included pay rates for aircraft that didn't even exist on property yet. Yes the pay isn't the best but that's the price of doing business. You don't always get what you want. You have to find a middle ground. The possible repercussions of not have a single seniority list far outweighed the pay scales for aircraft that weren't even here. Take a good long look at what is happening between GoJets and TSA. The TSA guys are getting screwed with their pants on because they weren't able to find a successful middle ground with the company. Now their management is free to do what they want basically. At RAH this isn't the case. By getting everyone on one seniority list it positioned the pilot group for the next move. Just like a game a chess. Unlike so many of you here the guys were thinking long term and not simply wanting more now now now now now. With a single seniority list the pilot group has everything they need to argue for better pay and work rules. This isn't something that happens overnight but it is something that's worth the wait. Once things follow the RLA the pilot group will then have the legal backing to strike if it should come to that and make a difference.

As of yet the RAH pilots have never had the opportunity to take any legal action against the aircraft coming on property. The Midwest contract had essentially no scope protection which allows them to show up so long as it's within the confines of our contract, which they are. I don't think anyone here is confused about how disgruntled you are with them being at RAH. However all your fingerpointing in the world doesn't do much with simple rants. Simply being the loudest one yelling doesn't mean it's accurate or right. Your flame-baiting has been noted. RAH does not pay as much as the majors do. There's a lot of reasons the pilot group accepted what they did and considering how others have failed at achieving what the RAH guys did, single seniority list integration, I think they deserve a pat on the back rather than slaps on the face. With multiple seniority lists and BB's ability to get business things could have been a hell of a lot worse. Hindsight being 20/20 those guys made the smart move and gave a little now to secure things later. It was an investment and a good play.

Asking why the "Republic pilots don't have the guts" shows that you don't have a full grasp on the legal actions groups can take. Please take the time and read the RLA and the link on Contracts. This isn't the first time I've had to point things out to you over your rants. Last time it ended with you asking if I expected you to actually spend time reading things. I'll go ahead and answer yes. Before you start pointing fingers and doing your best to belittle people you might want to actually crack a book. It doesn't make you look the best and you need to remember that in the future you'll be running into people from here at other jobs. Aviation is a small community so treat those in it with some respect. It's not a lot to ask for someone to be civil.

Originally Posted by Flyboy8784 (Post 622536)

What Middle Ground though???? Middle ground usually means some sort of compromise....Is there ANYTHING in your contract that has other Airlines going "Damn I wish we had that in our contract!" ?? I dont think there is.....unless you can prove me wrong....and I hope you can....im not trying to be a d**k....just curious

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 622335)

Why shouldn't it happen? I think many guys @ RAH will stay mainly because they are happy in the E170s. With the E190 door now open that's even more that might stay. That means that not only should CAs worth about much better payrates, but FOs should worry even more because they'll be in the right seat for a much longer time. It would be foolish to start off with anything less then B6 rates + 1-2%.

Originally Posted by tpersuit (Post 622303)

it's called informing the masses my friend. And if you have any intentions to get paid what you deserve on that 900, I would let it happen and be very happy for this information to get out there.

Originally Posted by grdprox (Post 622540)

While it would be nice to pipe dream that they get JB or better, the facts are THEY ARE STILL A REGIONAL that fly's for us and other flag. JetBLUE fly's for JetBLUE! They are their own entity. JB does not get paid a fee for departure. JB pays for their own diesel. JB handles their own ticketing, need I go on. If Republic was it's own entity then sure, you better get JB or better, but the game has changed. To stay competitive, they still must keep an attractive bottom line for DCI and the lot. Impossible if they get JB rates or better. They are a REGIONAL AIRLINE!! Even though they may look like otherwise. What they should do is try to negotiate close to the payrate and get other QOL bonuses thrown in.

Originally Posted by 145Driver (Post 622240)

You posted this as if the RAH pilots just agreed to new payrates to fly the 190. Seriously dude...The RAH contract has been in place since 2003. Before the new JB rates came out, this huge pay difference did not exist. Quit trying to stir *******.

Originally Posted by grdprox (Post 622540)

If Republic was it's own entity then sure, you better get JB or better, but the game has changed. To stay competitive, they still must keep an attractive bottom line for DCI and the lot.

Originally Posted by Flyboy8784 (Post 622536)

What Middle Ground though????

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 622659)

The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).

To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.

It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).

Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.

At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.

You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations! :)

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 622659)

The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).

To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.

It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).

Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.

At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is no $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.

You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations! :)

Originally Posted by BoilerUP (Post 622538)

No junior manning.

I heard PLENTY of guys at AWAC in my two years there wishing they had that...

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 622659)

The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).

To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.

It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).

Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.

At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.

You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations! :)

Originally Posted by Sniper (Post 622659)

To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.

Originally Posted by flyboyzz1 (Post 622662)

Anything But Jb 190 Rates And You Guys Should Be Stoned...

Originally Posted by Kenny (Post 622708)

In over 5 years at AWAC, they've tried to junior man me twice. They have, on the other hand, dead-headed me all over the place and canceled more than a few of my flights.

So, I'd rather keep the JM and actually get paid for being at work.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 622764)

AWAC isn't RAH. RAH runs the airline extremely lean. Had their been junior manning here life as we know it would suck.

Originally Posted by PILOTGUY (Post 622289)

Well....two things come to my mind:

JetBlue is not a "career" airline, IMHO.

That 4 year RAH CA has one kinda, sorta, important advantage....TT PIC time.

Originally Posted by Kenny (Post 622831)

Not sure but I think you missed the point. First off I know RAH isn't AWAC, thank God. Secondly, Junior Manning actually allows management to run with less than adequate crews, as evidenced by AWAC's CEO stating that unless we were junior manning, we were over-staffed. However the fact that RAH uses PBS, probably negates most of the pro's of mgt being able to junior man.

The main point was that while many may want to get rid of Junior Manning at AWAC, being paid 100% for dead heads and CX's is far more important, as it affects us all.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 622328)

[QUOTE Lowlevel]

Why is it sad? Republic is a regional that flies 170's and 175's, B6 is, no matter what you say, a mainline carrier and flies 190's and 320's. ALL airline pay is too low, don't get me wrong, but why would these two companies be compared?

Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED (Post 622907)

I am at RAH on the RW side, I've been canceled twice in 2 years. Most of my deadheads are on Air Whiskey, I've never had one canceled and on the rare occasion does it run the block. I'd rather be able to answer my phone and know that the end of my trip is in fact the end of my trip. I've worked for Mesa and junior manning blows, and as bad as crew scheduling can treat us at RW I can't even imagine them having the ability to junior man.

Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 622923)

Sorry, I am still confused. The E-190 is 15 feet longer and 15000 lbs heavier than a 175, and 20 feet longer and 35000 lbs heavier than a 170 (MTOW), and the 190 holds more pax than both. Like I said, I think airline pilots are WAY under paid, in fact less than the trash truck drivers in Queens, but I am just trying to figure out this particular comparison.

Originally Posted by Pilotpip (Post 622937)

Bond,

I really think you have a few internet commandos here stereotyped into the entire pilot group. I think you'll be surprised.

A vast majority of us aren't on our first airline. A vast majority of us weren't hired with ink still drying on our commercial rating. We see what's up. Bedford's brainwashing isn't targeted at us. It's directed at the other employees and does a pretty good job painting us as greedy SOBs (Heller's is even worse). I really do believe most of us see through it. Our rates suck. However 500 pilots flying 135s and 145s in 2003 could not have seen this coming. That's the price we paid for scope. Looking at how bad the situation is at TSA and for that matter, Midwest, I'll take the hit for a few more months.

I'll vote no on any TA that doesn't include significant pay an QOL increases on all equipment we fly.

Why stop at Jet Blue rates?

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 622933)

Perhaps you're unaware that there was recently an annoncement made that RAH will operate E190s under the Midwest Connect banner. That's right, I said E190s. Not E170/175s, but E190s. RAH will be operating the exact same size aircraft as JetBlue & Us Airways.

That is why they should be paid JetBlue rates. ;)

Originally Posted by flyboyzz1 (Post 622662)

Anything But Jb 190 Rates And You Guys Should Be Stoned...

Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED (Post 623011)

I am starting to think stoned may not be such a bad thing... Everyone that thinks we are able to get Jet Blue rates flying regional lift seems to be stoned, so why shouldn't I be.

Originally Posted by Lowlevel (Post 622953)

I was unawares :) So, are the 170/175/190 rates all the same at RAH?
We actually have rates in our contract for E-175's, yeah that worked out well for Comair, land of dreamers.

Originally Posted by BoilerUP (Post 623054)

The E175/190 payscale is higher than the E170...at least for captains.

Originally Posted by tpersuit (Post 623076)

...and it maxes out at $37/hr for FO's. Sacrificing half your pilot group, never makes it right.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 623116)

Might want to get out of aviation then.