so which is it?

"There is nothing wrong with being a CFI or going to Jet U or GIA or getting a job towing a banner at the beach."

I think there is. You're comparing getting paid to do an honest entry level job to paying for a job that's part of a scheme to lower the career expectations of pilots. The idea being that an airline doesn't need to hire copilots if it can find people willing to PAY to be copilots. It's not a healthy thing for the profession....

If you think nobody is going to care during the course of your career that you went to Gulfstream, you're living in a bubble. I think that attitude is perpetuated at Gulfstream cause that's what you guys all want to hear. If you're not sure about that, do a little research here, at flightinfo, or at jetcareers, and see what you come up with.

"And call me a scab if you want but I'm enjoying what I'm doing and my quality of life is outstanding"

I don't think you're a scab but that's exactly what a scab would say. "I'm enjoying what I'm doing and life is outstanding". People that came before both of us sacrificed tremendously to make this career what it is. They weren't scabs and they didn't pay for jobs.

Believe me, many in this career don't, and won't, ever look highly upon someone who PFJed. Best you just keep it to yourself...

With attitudes like that, I wonder why a lot of people see us as whiny glorified bus drivers... God forbid someone actually enjoy their job.

Preach it Jd. I go tinto flying because I love it not for the money. If I was in it for the money I'de have bailed as soon as I got in. I truly love what I do and don't care about the money. I got in cause I wanted to and would not change a thing. And who cares how you built your time, you built it. It's a pitty there is so much jealousy amongst pilots.

ConnectionPilot,

I think there's been decent advice given on this board so far.

Let me add some things.

You said you don't want to flight instruct, fine, let me tell you some options.

Gulfstream: Don't do it. I'm sure their training is actuallly very decent, equipment is probably good, and safety record is top notch. However, I'm against the fundamental idea of paying an airline itself to sit in the right seat.
Besides, it's 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS !


Let me give you non-instructing options for LESS than 30,000 bucks, and you can end up at regionals with low time:

The best one I can think of is Flight Safety Academy's Direct Track program.


First, you pay $5000 for a single and multi engine evaluation. Then, you interview with a regional airline. Yes, you interview UPFRONT, and only if you're hired, you're given a conditional letter of employment, and THEN proceed with the rest of the program for $22,500. Total $27,500.
If you're not hired by one of the airlines, you can interview with the other ones.

But note that only once you've been hired by the airline, do you proceed to pay the $22,500 to Flight Safety. Otherwise, you don't pay them.

4 Airlines participate in this Direct Track program: XJT, Eagle, TSA, and ASA. The ASA program as far as I know, is on hold so far. The other three are running.

Minimums: ASA and TSA: No hourly requirements, just need Comm-Multi-Instrument.

Eagle: 336 total time, 36 multi to interview

Xjet: 400 total time, 100 multi to interview.


The attractive thing is you dont pay the huge sum of $22,500 to flight safety academy unless you pass your interview and are hired.

Link:

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/c...escription.pdf

This route mentioned is much better, I think, than Gulfstream. So don't waste your time and money at Gulfstream.


Another option: Mesa's MAPD/PACE program. PACE is for Comm-Multi-Instrument rated pilots. Cost about $12-15000 (Half of Gulfstream), and upon completion, guaranteed interview with Mesa. Again, most, like 90% of those who do this program, get hired at Mesa.
This option is better than Gulfstream, costs less as well.

Link: http://www.flightcareers.com/Pace_Br...i_Training.htm

So follow either one of the two options above, but don't go to Gulfstream.

"And who cares how you built your time, you built it"

A lot of people do. There are honorable ways, which are most of them, and a few dishonorable ways. That would be Gulfstream, PFJ, or being a scab.

Do you guys actually think paying for a job is an acceptable way to enter this industry? Perhaps the attitudes I'm getting from the masses who talk agaisnt it on the net, and in real life, are not representitive of this thread.

Has nothing to do with if you like your job or not. I like mine, too. There are limits, though, to what steps one should take to make it in this biz. I'm gonna say it's not good for us all, as a whole, if doing whatever it takes to be happy as an individual has no limits. Being a scab so one can be a happy Capt sooner than later comes to mind....

is3cm,

I'm curious, why did you pay $30,000 to go to Gulfstream?

Why didn't you consider something else like mentioned above in my post ?(please read it)

Just curious, thanks.




BrownTail LOL you're a funny guy.

But from having read your previous posts, you sound like a pretty reasonable/wise person, so I'm sure you're yanking chains.
You wouldn't go anywhere near Jet University. And neither would I.

"The best one I can think of is Flight Safety Academy's Direct Track program"
"Minimums: ASA and TSA: No hourly requirements, just need Comm-Multi-Instrument"

Personally, I don't think people with 250-300 hours belong in the right seat of an RJ.

Another negative of FSA direct track is you could be "hired" into the program with ASA, do the program, and then ASA stops hiring. There is a guy at Jetcareers this happened to that, last I heard, has been waiting several months for a class date and still doesn't have one.

If you love your job, have a little respect for the industry, and yourself. Work your way in. I'm not saying that flight instructing is for everybody. I've found my niche. But there is no other industry where you have to PAY to go to work. Military, pipeline, and other routes will get you there too.

Once you have the credentials, they should be paying you. Not the other way around.

"have a little respect for the industry"

Yeah, that's partly my point. I think if you PFJ you are showing disrespect for the industry, and the career, in a big way. In their defense, I can totally see how a Gulfstreamer misses that, with the fancy website and the bubble they are in.

You get hired at 250 hours, but that doesn't mean that's the time you will have when you get to the right seat.

The Eagle minimums are 336 TT / 36 multi, because Eagle insurance requirements dictate new hire pilots to have at least 400 TT and 100 Multi (this according to FSA Career Coordinator)...

...that basically means that you will pick up a minimum of 64 hours in this program. As a result, most graduates of this program at the start of the airline's ground school have over 300 hours (in the range of 315 to 400+ hours).

But don't forget, there are many who go to direct track that have a significantly higher total time than the bare minimums before even starting the program (like 400-500+ hours).




True, but look at the latest hiring updates from FSA:

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/c...ment/hired.php

For the class of 2006, the following ASA students have been hired:

Robert Gilbert (AATP)
Jose Riviera (AATP)
Lloyd Sunvold (AATP)
Carlos Curiz (AATP)
Neil Tornblom (AATP)
Bobby Hsu (AATP)
Taso Iraclidis (AATP)
Gretchen Hermanson (AATP)
Kevin Gwinn (AATP)
Michael Scorza (AATP)
Robert Burch (AATP)
Joseph Cook (AATP)
Charlie Pruitt (AATP)
John Gary (AATP)

Now keep in mind that the ASA program has been on HOLD since November. So, these are the students who have gotten class dates in 2006. They did direct track last fall sometime.

I believe you're talking about Badco99 on jetcareers. He may not yet have a class date, but he will.


Even the FSA website's FAQs say it can take 1 to 3 months to get a class date (and sometimes longer in some cases).

The program has been very successful with ASA.

There are testimonies by Capt. John Robertson and Capt. Julie Skugland(sp?), that are on FSA's website.

They're very pleased with this program, and apparently it has served ASA very well.

BIG Questions
 

Hello all,

I’m new to the forum so I'll try not to sound too absent minded. Well a little background... I am currently a firefighter-paramedic who just returned from Iraq where I was a non-mill PSD Medic and firefighter. I have my private and now after seven years of prep. Am ready to take the plunge into the great unknown.
I know what most of you think of DCA. During my tour in Iraq I put up with a lot of BS, both from National fighters, and Iraqis. So naturally I saw right through the initial sales pitch. My questions to you guys are:

1. Being 25 and having no certs. other than a PPL I DCA's program although expensive appeared to be the quickest way to get some decent flight time, and an inside look at what the airlines might be like. (ie. Gripes, lack of flight time, and heavy work load) Besides price what makes the other Flight schools any better? I have looked at both ATP and Flight Safety and was not too impressed. Although the multi time @ ATP was impressive.

2. I have almost six years of college with only an associate to show. This is because Paramedic school is three years, and my fire science degrees an additional two. Should I go ahead and get a BS or will the airlines take my schooling into account?

3. I love to fly and DO realize that the airlines are a very risky industry. I'm lucky that I have a second career that pays pretty well. Especially being a medic in a hospital. So I'm willing to take the risks. To the guys who have been on the flight line for a while, and have weathered the industry I ask. What would you do differently and why?

Thanks again for letting me ramble, I look forward to your responses.


Ben

"an inside look at what the airlines might be like"

That's silly. What makes you think DCA gives you a heads up with that more so than another school? Being "owned by Delta" is nothing more than marketing BS. A good airline pilot starts out as a good pilot and then gets hired at an airline. You can become a good pilot at any of the academies or a little flight school. Either method has it's good points and bad points but they both get you the same place.

"Should I go ahead and get a BS or will the airlines take my schooling into account?"

You'll need the BS for the cream of the crop jobs, unless you're very lucky. Not saying it couldn't/hasn't been done, but it's just not too likely in this day and age. On the other hand, if you'd be happy with a career at the regionals, then I wouldn't worry about the degree.

Thanks
 

Thanks for all of the info! Keep it coming. I know that the who line about being "owned by the airlines" is a bunch of BS, but I do love the airport they opperate out of, and the traffic that it has. Even here in ATL it's hard to find an airport with that kind of HEAVY traffic. Thanks again for the info! Stay safe.

I did not do the PFT, PFJ, GIA thing. But I didn't have to instruct either.

Well, I don't think that's quite right either. Tuition wasn't near $25K when I went there. First year it was 14 or 15K (very reasonable for a private school) and 17K when I graduated. 7K is about right for room and board, but I didn't live in the dorms but for my first year (found a way to sneek around the second year) Depending on how well you get through the flight program (very difficult to do) you could get out with less than 80K being spent. I got out for about 90K and I went to one of the campuses.

Oh, it's right, all right.

http://www.erau.edu/er/financialaid/estcosts.html

You'd have to be INSANE to go there! Or at the very least, extremely dumb. Like me. My saving grace is that I spent only three semesters there, and it was slightly less expensive then.

wow. i guess considering how much they jacked up the price in the four years i was there 25K is about right for now. wow.

Geez.....
 

Just go anywhere but blojets..... Put in your time, go to tsa or ASA... Just stay away from blojets... Now that will quash your career faster than tatooing GIA Grad on your forehead before an interview... And even then, it may still work out...

Just some personal observations and opinions derived from 26 years in the airline industry.

Hours in a logbook are not indications of skill or competency. Building time is not the same as learning to be a skilled, competent pilot. The quality of the time is important. There are no shortcuts to learning in this industry. It's an old, worn out saying, but it's very true. You now have a license to learn. After thousands of hours in everything from part 121 regional turboprops to transport category jets, I'm still learning. There's no substitute for PIC time, flight instructing, flying part 135 freight, etc. It's hard work and it doesn't pay well, but it teaches you volumes and builds confidence. It refines airmanship and instrument skills. Things you will surely need to have, because there are folks out there in the left seat who do not have them. Most of them get away with it because of a competent First Officer. A First Officer is not in the aircraft to "handle the radios". A First Officer is expected to have the knowledge to make decisions and operate the aircraft in an emergency or in the event the Captain becomes incapacitated. Over the years, I've flown with pilots who have taken the shortcuts, a few were competent, most were not. It usually takes one leg to rear it's ugly head. Don't expect to be treated with kindness if you fit into this category. This is a very serious business. If you don't care enough to learn, don't aggravate those of us who have. I have quite a few friends who are Captains at one of the large regionals that is famous for hiring low time, "flight academy graduates". Almost all of them are considering changing careers. Most Captains are more than happy to teach what they have learned over the years. Most will also make your life a living hell if you expect them to be flight instructors. If you must take the shortcuts, you better bring your A game, because if you don't, your job won't be much fun. It's not "jealousy". It's not wanting to be on the flight deck with a dumbass you can't depend on.

I also fly because I love it. I also love the income, though shrinking, that it provides for my family. It's shrinking because airlines know there will always be an endless stream of prostitutes who will work for next to nothing. They will for a while anyway. After a year or two, they will be the one's crying about low pay and bad working conditions.

If you must be a pilot, take the time to learn how to be one. Riding in the right seat of a jet aircraft does not make you a safe one. Your passengers and fellow crewmembers deserve no less. Money seems not be a problem for you, If so, congratulations! Most of us are not that fortunate. Do us all a favor and find a corporate job that pays crap instead of helping lower everyone else's paycheck.

"Don't expect to be treated with kindness if you fit into this category"

Oh no, we're just old, out of touch, egomaniacs that need to learn it's a brave new world now. ANY way you get time in your logbook is fine. If that means paying for a job, then so be it, nothing is sacred. I'll get on the list faster than you so I can have another year at the top pay scale just before retirement. Getting on the list FAST is what it's all about. If the airlines FAA blessed training program says I'm good enough to do the job at 250 hours, then that should be good enough for you line Capts. That minimum standard is all I need to meet. What's your problem with that? I love flying and I'd do it for nothing just to be an airline pilot.

I fear for the future....

EXCELLENT POST!

There are quite a few of you out there who need to save this post and refer to it as you decide on how you are going to build flight time.

I undertstand being new, but I have a hard time respecting new f/o's (low time) who can't talk on the radio, plan a descent, or fly a visual approach.

You guys need to understand that you can't "buy" experience

Another great post!

Again, I did not build my time by doing the PFT or PFJ thing WorkinStuff. I was fortunate enough to be in the right places at the right times. I don't know if you read my previous post in this same thread, but I am not going to quote it here, it would take up to much room. Please go back and read it. As for experience, I totally agree with you on the old saying this is a license to learn. I learn something new everyday, whether it deals with flying or maintaining aircraft. As my first post in this thread says, I fly many different aircraft in all kinds of weather in all kinds of airspace. I always see something new. This has helped me bacome a more well rounded pilot than someone who has built there time as a CFI, or so I feel. As for your comment on the endless supply of prostitutes that will work for next to nothing and than later cry about the working conditions and low pay are the ones who help the real pilots who got in because they love it climb the seniority list so quickly. I've been doing what I'm doing since 2001 and am just now makeing over $10.00 an hour with a wife and kid, yes my wife works, but she only makes $12.00 hour and doesn't get payed OT. Labor laws?

The year is 2006, not 1956. Things have changed.

Blame; deregulation, big business, and mismanagement for what is going on in the industry today. Not us.

Is that (F.A.G) you are talking about? I heard that place sucks

Sorry I couldn't resist. If you want to be a good pilot, go out and get about 50 hours of tailwheel time and then instruct in one. It is amazing when you get a hot-shot student in a tailwheel for the first time. It is very humbling for them.