US Carriers Defend Pilot Pay After...
 

US Carries Defend Pilot Pay After Buffalo Crash

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJeU7Viw6UMU

June 17 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. regional airline pilot pay is “fair and reasonable,” the head of the carriers’ trade group said, defending salaries under scrutiny after a fatal crash near Buffalo, New York.
Rebecca Shaw, 24, copilot of the Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Colgan plane that crashed, earned $23,900 a year, the carrier has said. Federal Aviation Administration chief Randy Babbitt questioned June 15 whether such pay attracts “the best and the brightest.”
Commuter carrier copilots on average earn $32,000, “in line with comparable professions,” Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, told a Senate subcommittee today in Washington. He called pay in all parts of the industry, including regional carriers, “fair and reasonable.”
Lawmakers at the Senate aviation-panel hearing echoed questions raised during a National Transportation Safety Board hearing last month as to whether pilot pay at small carriers is adequate. It was Congress’s third hearing on aviation safety since June 10.
“We’re trying to do it on the cheap,” said Senator Mike Johanns, a Nebraska Republican. “We are hiring pilots at a very low wage.”
Senator Frank Lautenberg, a New Jersey Democrat, called the pay “modest” and said that at $20,000, a pilot would be close to earning “minimum wage, for any kind of job.”
Such pay may force pilots to take second jobs, increasing the risk they show up for airline work tired, Lautenberg said.
Comparable Professions
Copilot pay is in line with comparable professions such as a paramedic or medical assistant, Cohen said. Captains at regional carriers earn an average of $76,000, he said. Pinnacle has said the average salary for a captain on the type of plane that crashed in Buffalo is $67,000.
Wage differences between major and regional carriers are as much as $70,000 for a captain and $50,000 for a first officer with five years of experience, John Prater, president of the Airline Pilots Association union, told the panel.
Pilot pay is a result of collective bargaining, James May, president of the Air Transport Association large carrier trade group in Washington.
“Neither legislation nor regulation can effectively peg what is the right compensation in such a system of negotiated wages, benefits, and working conditions,” May told the panel.
The Bombardier Inc. Dash 8 Q400 crashed Feb. 12 in Clarence Center, New York, as it approached Buffalo’s airport from Newark, New Jersey. The dead included one person on the ground and all 49 people on board the plane, which Colgan operated for Continental Airlines Inc.
The NTSB is examining whether the crew responded improperly to a stall warning, pulling the nose of the aircraft up, rather than pointing it down to increase speed. NTSB evidence shows the pilots let the plane lose more than a quarter of its airspeed in 21 seconds, setting off a cockpit stall warning.

:eek:

This guy is really something else...

I had a few laughs watching Cohen in this most recent hearing. Dodging questions, not knowing stuff, etc.

This guy is scared, I can assure you. They (RAA airlines) have run down to the cheapest possible way to operate while still obeying the letter of the law (in most cases). This recent crash has opened the door of scrutiny to just how thin and cheap everything is being done - whipsaws, outsourcing of jobs. Its not small airport regional hopping anymore, its a cheap way to replace your more expensive experienced pilots. He's afraid. The way he stumbles over himself and clears his throat left and right - this is the way someone acts when he is nervous and feels overpowered.

I hope so, the regionals are paying the same wages practically they did in the mid 90s. The COL has gone up nearly 50% since then. The work rules, pay, etc., the regional guys live under is pathetic. I hope the legacy of the Colgan crew is that they highlight the ridiculously bad working conditions of the regional airlines. If real change happens you will be much better for it. Frankly, I don't know how you guys do it day in and day out.

Its the dream, man.

The ability to ignore reality in the hopes of one day getting the gig that will make all the suffering worthwhile. The same dream people who spend their rent money on scratch tickets, or risk the mortgage in Vegas have. You just have to hope your odds are better than theirs are.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

I certainly wouldn't click that link

Cohen is such an as*hole, someone needs to shut his mouth for him, such a liar.

Well said, I was going to say 'nightmare', but hey, it's still a dream right???

50k a year for a CA?? I hope to earn half of that!

I don't know anything about what various medical assistants would make or be responsible for, but I do know a very limited amount about the paramedic field, and as far as I know most places pay them more than a starting salary of $22,000-ish a year. Considerably more. Also how does he get off comparing apples to oranges to bananas? Did we not just see an event happen the other day which proved that the FO is a very important asset to the safety of flight?

Not unbelievable, but should be.

Rebecca's taxable income was $16,000. Including per diem she made $23,900. That is how that figure came about.

In 2001, my friend who is an EMT in Tacoma, WA made $90K.

Are medical assistants trained to the same level as the doctor they assist? Do they switch off performing surgeries with the doctor, assistant does one doctor does one? Do medical assistants have a Medical PhD and do everything a doctor does? What a load of horse ****!

Medical assistants huh? Aren't they the ones who take a 12 month course advertised at 2 am? If I'm not mistaken they are the ones who my urine sample and hold the strip against the jar. And we compare to them how?

12 months? I thought it was like 1 month or so.

RAA had to expand the comparison to encompass FOs. They included EMTs, Medical Assistants, Dead People, and Fast Food Workers.

Yes, but those workers dont have 100k in school loans just to qualify for food stamps :(

The NTSB appeared to figure her block hours for the year and multiply them by the Colgan first year F/O rate of $21 an hour, which was an incorrect calculation.

Colgan management did not originally argue the figure, and eventually settled on $23,900, which I assume included her overguarantee, but should not have included per diem.

The bottom line is a first year Colgan F/O is expected to live on $18,900 a year before taxes, before uniform expenses, before per diem, before overtime and before any other income adjustments are made. ($21 x 75 hour guarantee x 12 bid periods) This is the minimum salary, and there are no guarantees one will make any more than that. Per diem is not income, it's a reimbursement for the expenses we incur while on business.

I think FO pay should be $1 per seat per hour, and captains should be paid 150% of that. We are worth at least $1 per seat. So 50 seats, $50/hr. The end

Agreed, but will never happen.

Easy to say if you're not stuck in the right seat of a 30 seat Brazilldo:) I actually make 28 and hour wchich is pretty close to a buck a seat and it is NOWHERE near enough.

I guess the only question is underfolder or fixed?
http://img319.imageshack.us/img319/2...600x4502dj.jpg

Deleted for those that are politically correct :)

I hate to say this because people get all emotionally unstable...brand new FOs are not worth more than what the company is paying them...it is called capitalism. Here is the deal... guys with 250 hours were going straight to the airlines with NO CFI experience, NO commercial experience, NO PIC experience. NO EXPERIENCE at all. They are unproven and untested in making their own decisions. You cant emulate leadership...IE watching the Captain. for 1,000 hours and then expect to be a capable leader when the Shizzle begins to Fizzle.

Now if you get guys with 135 experience and ATP mins and maybe around 500 ME PIC...then yeah...he is worth more...I would say easily 30k first year.

But it would be wrong to pay someone who is untested and unproven 30k plus the first year...so those with experience either go somewhere else or they have to suck up low pay.

My opinion...you shouldnt be allowed to be a 121 FO unless you have 900 hours. 1500=ATP 1200=135 and 900=121 FO.

Captain T.

My cousin has just graduated from Boston University. Aerospace Engineer. Really, really smart kid. In his Sophmore summer he got an internship at one of the major firms (can't remember which one - doesn't matter). His internship paid $25 an hour, full time.

Now, as I said Nick is a really smart kid. But he was being paid more to be a gopher than first year pilots make at a Legacy, much less a regional. With NO EXPERIENCE. None.

Thirty grand is not nearly enough for a brand new first officer anywhere, on any equipment. It will not support a family, period.

I agree that at 300 hours you've got no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner. I personally think an ATP ought to be required for every 135/121 pilot.

But anyone in that seat must be properly compensated. And it is the job we are doing, not what we used to do that ought to determine our pay.

Cap'n T... what about the unfortunate souls who were laid off when their airlines downsized or went under.... and only regionals were hiring? In other words, a former ATA 757 captain or former Aloha 737NG captain. What should they make?

Actually, you are completely wrong. It would be capitalism if it were unrestricted. Thanks to the RLA, it's about as far from "what they're worth" as one can get. When you have no leverage to negotiate, you get basically what management wants to pay you. Obviously, this is not what you're "worth". This is what they want to give you. Repeal the RLA and then let's see what pilots are "worth". Negotiations would change drastically if you could go on strike the day your contract expires, rather than maybe 4-5 YEARS later. (If the government decides to let you)

Bingo, especially when the arbitrators are decidedly pro-management. That being said, we're not a truly capitalistic society, nor could we ever truly be one. A purely capitalistic society HAS no regulation. In this example (the airlines), safety would be completely dependent on the airlines self regulating their own safety, in the interest of competition. "Don't fly airline A, they only inspect their engines every three years. Fly Airline B, where we inspect our engines more than any other airline out there!" I can guarantee you that safety would not be nearly what it is today if left in the hands of the airlines. I'm not advocating complete reregulation, but clearly the airlines have not demonstrated the ability to self regulate themselves when balancing safety vs cost. Why should the last and most important line of defense, the pilots, be the ONLY thing left unprotected from management?

Crazy talk! I left a truck driving job, where I was home every day at 4pm and was making $60K to come to a regional and make $18K. Yes, it was by choice, but since when should anyone with up to 76 lives in their hands make $18K a year? When I came to the airlines, I had 2200 hours, many of which were Part 135 cargo in the Northeast, at night. So, should I have made more than other FO's without that experience? Yes! But then, if you are a union, you work for the same wages as everyone else with the same seniority. You have to admit, $346 a week to fly a plane ($18K a year)is insane! That is a $8.65 an hour, 40 hour week job!! Can you say "Would you like fries with that?"

That doesn't sound like something to brag about. That kind of shows a lack of intelligence on those that have gone that route...

Here is something to shoot for... It is posted in the major forums as a proposed pay for aircraft type, regardless of who is flying them...

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/d...oposed_Pay.jpg

I don't understand your logic at all. You left the other job that you claim had better quality of life and pay for a job that made less than a third of the compensation. According to the market, you deemed the worth of a first year regional pilot to be exactly what you signed on to make. You weren't tricked were you? The market works. If nobody signs on to make $18,000/year, the wages are forced to increase. If people like you leave higher paying jobs to make that pay, then the price was set correctly.

So how do you want the guy to continue his career?

You have to get Jet PIC time to get to a legacy carrier.

The legacy airlines do not see a 5000 hour FAR 135 pilot as qualified anymore. They want you to have 121 jet PIC. At least many airlines do.

The Regionals knows this and abuses the system so if you want to continue on your career to bigger equipment the only way of getting those 121 PIC hours is by signing on for those slave salaries......

Are the pilots the ones that are wrong for tryng to continue their career or is it the Regionals that are wrong in abusing the system?

At the same time that some Regionals wont pay more for pilots they have so much cash that they can buy other companies.

Capitalism is good when healthy and responsible but it can be destructive and very sick in hands of bandits.

A goverment that regulates parts of the system that has gone sick is not doing anything else than being responsible.

When the system shows it is responsible and healthy then no regulation is needed.

A dog can be a mans best friend but if it goes crazy you may have to shoot it........

Capitalism is great but if it gets sick...........how do we fix it?

maybe by regulating parts of it when needed..............

They are definitely worth more than a guy who got hired with 300 hours...but unfortunately the airlines dont pay based on experience...in fact they reward the lowest bidder because he is inexperienced and is "tired" of CFIing...which is why this whole system is garbage. Anyone who thinks that CFIing and 135 flying can be substituted for an RJ course and 300 hours to become a 121 SIC is severely dumb.

Actually I am competely right...who says you have to go to the airlines??? Why not avoid that whole game and go fly 135 where pay is better? You empower them by working for them. If everyone who stop playing the game of run to an airline as fast as you can they would eventually be forced to raise pay...but there are enough morons...who run off to fly "THE JET!" ...that the airlines have a surplus. And the FAA doesnt want to regulate the standards for a 121 FO...so this is what you get.

Your cousin has a skill that MOST PEOPLE cant/wont apply themselves to obtain. That is why at the lowest end he makes more than a new FO. I like the idea that ATPs should be required, but they arent, so we get a surplus of pilots with RJ courses from the newest civillian top gun flight school. They are the top 3% of the bottom 10%. And the FAA allows this, the airlines accept this, and the passengers are oblivious to this. So that is why a new FO is cheap. We as pilots have brought this on ourselves...because MOST CFIs only want to go to the regional airlines. I tell all my students CFI till they have 135/ATP mins and go fly freight. Trial by fire is the best proven test. :D

Best quote I have read on this site for a while. Thank you.

??
 

What?
I know a few 121 pilots with the same degree and they had to prostitute themselves to the regionals like everyone else to get ahead.

Why do you take for granted that most regional pilots do not hold a degree?

Pilot have at least invested 50K into flying and most closer to 100k (if you did not get it paid by tax money like the military guys) and that is pretty much what a lawyer or a doctor degree can cost in some places.

Many hold pretty good degrees. (BA myself)

The new pilot is cheap because the Regional was able to make pilot unions and senior pilots give up the fight long time ago with the help of the goverment when regulations was taken away.

The Unions and senior pilots in all companies should have been responsible for defending the status of a new hired pilot. The Regionals took the advantage of that without moral respect or shame and abuses the unregulated industry while piling huge amount of cash that makes it able for them to expand or buy other companies.

Now everyone blames the new pilots that are against the wall in this mess without real options and says its their own fault for taking the low payment. What a bunch of bs.!!!

It is easy to say that when you are ahead like me and the ones that say something like that but I would like to see those if they would be starting out today.

RAH makes so much cash that they dont know what to do with it and they are spreading it allover except on the pilots.

The unions and the senior guys gave up the fight for the new pilots rights and the new pilots do not have the option or strenght to change that until they get some seniority so stop blaming the new pilots for this mess.

saying that ........"as a new pilot you do not need to go to the regionals" "you have options" is funny no.......... actually pretty sad.

So.......... there are corporate companies for all new pilots to get the JET PIC asked by most mayors? No

So..flying cargo 135 (like I did) will take you to the legacy airline eventually? No, no way

so what is left for the guys?
I'ts a different time now and the old guys and the unions screwed it all for the young ones. Just admit it and try to do some changes. Stop caring just about your senior positions for a while..............

There is a huge difference between a business degree from Local University and a degree from Boston University in Aeronautical engineering. I never implied that pilots dont have college degrees. I implied that they dont have degrees in advanced fields MOST OF THE TIME.

Also The legacies dont require 121 JET PIC. A lot of guys go fly freight and move on up the ladder to turbine equipment and then to corporate jets. The from their you can always go to a legacy.

The legacies, fractionals, and UPS/FEDEX all know that 121 RJ PIC does not make one superior to a guy who flys by himself in the stuff at night with limited equipment....and worked his way into a King Air or Lear jet.

Since when does the amount of money you make equate to what your job is?

Britney Spears is loaded. I doubt she is smart enough to hook up her own stereo, much less perform surgery.

A-Rod makes more than the GDP of a lot of countries, just because he can hit a baseball.

Priests make almost nothing - but are responsible for the spiritual health of hundreds.

Soldiers sleep in foxholes and get paid almost nothing so you can have the right to whine about your low pay.

Life isn't fair. If someone told you it was, they lied. Open your eyes and look around. You wanted to be a pilot, you knew what it paid, here you are.