Gotcha. I get what you're saying now.
One other way to look at it would be that maybe some outfits might shy away from furloughed pilots since they most likely will leave when their airline starts recalling. Probably depends on the amount of normal turnover at the company in question. If it's not real high, it's possible they wouldn't want to almost guarantee it by hiring a furloughed pilot. Just a thought.

That would be a great find and I have met a few pilots working for companies that take that mindset and shy away from furloughed guys since they would likely leave when recalled or leave when a better job turned up. As of now, they aren't hiring (go figure) but I still keep in touch with the pilots so who knows what will happen in another few months.

Well If you find 135 that is actively hiring you better know the CP or DO because those slots fill up reaaalllll quick :cool:

Average 1st year pay will be aprox 1700/month for a 1st year regional at 75 hours at $22.75/ hour. Dont expect more than 75.

So I assume you only make 1100 a month as an instructor (50% increase statement), and being that you work 7 days a week, you make on average $35 a day as an instructor.

Care to rethink your opinion on the extra 50% you will make at a regional?

I am not trying to be mean, but don't be melodramatic. There is nothing more annoying, as a regional pilot, is reading about a CFI who cant wait to fly an RJ so he can make big money, while the regional pilot is barely getting by.

Some might think that the reason why the regional pilot suffers financially is because the CFI wants to fly the RJ to make the "big bucks."

Read my previous posts in this thread. I already advocate going to the guard over active duty...and it's still 10 years from wings for the guard as well.

Edit: actually the post I was referring to is in another thread that sounds similar. My bad.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...air-force.html

I agree 100%. An instructor friend of mine called me the other day to tell me he recently got hired by an airline that is taking flying from my airline and I might be furloughed because of it. He will be making $20 to fly the same routes that I fly at $40 an hour. He couldn't understand why I wasn't happy for him! Its really starting to p*ss me off how these cfis are willing to fly for nothing just to make it to the airlines. This same guy I know is being replaced as an instructor by another furloughed guy from my airline! I don't mean to be mean either but there are too many guys willing to fly for free just to become an airline pilot.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I would literally walk off the job at my regional to go back to my old freight company, but they like many others have pilots on furlough right now. I think many of those who went right from instructing to the 121 world are very miss informed about the 135 freight world. Many believe that you need to be a "cowboy" and breaking regs in unsafe equipment is the norm, but up until this point in my career, the most unsafe I have ever felt in an airplane has most definately been flying 121.

Patience is the key. I know that is what nobody here wants to hear. The retirements are going to start up gangbusters in 3 years time. Even if the majors (pax and cargo) do not hire until then, they will eat up anyone who wants to fly for them in a short amount of time. In 2008, there were roughly 1000 pilots in the US who were seeking a Commercial pilot rating, so we are heading for one of those pilot shortage situations.

Keep in mind that this industry is very cyclical. Make sure you have positioned yourself when the upswing starts again.

I agree 100%!!

How much did you make your first year?

WMUFLYBOY, from another WMU grad and soon to be furloughed regional fo; STAY PUT! I got the itch and was able to take the next step. The pay sucks, the lifestyle sucks, the flying's cool (nobody can say otherwise). Enjoy the industry leading CFI pay and benefits, get your masters paid for, by the time things pick up you'll have enough time to be competitive for a regional job(maybe corporate if you play your cards right). Best of luck, feel free to pm if you want a straight shooter outlook.

I'm sure this topic has been hashed over pretty well, but let me add my two cents. I wouldn't get too carried away making career decisions based on today's projection of the future economic growth. If things were set in stone, we would all be flying based on the projections made in November 2007.

The one fault economic planning has is it is static. We assume all of the assumptions we make today will pan out. As we know, that never happens. The economy, like life, is dynamic. Events we cannot foresee today will play a huge role in airline hiring in the years to come. On September 10, 2001, hiring was to take place for years and years and no one ever considered the possibility of a terrorist attack.

I know most people here prefer the gloom and doom scenario, but what if modest growth returns to the economy by the end of the year. Most, but not all, economists are predicting something similar to that. That would certainly alter hiring. What if many senior pilots decide to end their careers at 62 or 63? That would certainly alter hiring.

Personally, I wouldn't expect too much movement until the first quarter of 2010. Still, there are a few encouraging signs out there. First, merger and aquisistion activity is happening (Republic). Second, Air Tran recalled all of its furloughed pilots. Third, oil, although more expensive than in January, is 50% cheaper than just one year ago. Each of these data points leads me to believe the bottom is in and things will be or already have turned up, however slight that may be.

It's always darkest before dawn and then the sun comes up. I think we reached that point in late February and early March. The morning overcast remains though.

"Average 1st year pay will be aprox 1700/month for a 1st year regional at 75 hours at $22.75/ hour. Dont expect more than 75.

So I assume you only make 1100 a month as an instructor (50% increase statement), and being that you work 7 days a week, you make on average $35 a day as an instructor.

Care to rethink your opinion on the extra 50% you will make at a regional?

I am not trying to be mean, but don't be melodramatic. There is nothing more annoying, as a regional pilot, is reading about a CFI who cant wait to fly an RJ so he can make big money, while the regional pilot is barely getting by.

Some might think that the reason why the regional pilot suffers financially is because the CFI wants to fly the RJ to make the "big bucks."




Don't be so quick to judge me. I'm not dying to make "the big bucks" at a regional, I know that won't happen for several years, I don't have SJS, if I did, I would be furloughed from one of the less favorite regionals right now. I opted to finish school, and in doing so I missed the last hiring wave. There is nothing more annoying than when guys at the airlines assume every CFI and up-and-coming pilot out there is absolutely dying to get hired by the first airline they come across just to "fly a jet, because its soooo cool." Don't blame us for a problem that started long before we touched the controls of an airplane.

I know you aren't trying to be mean, I didn't take it that way at all. I don't mean to come off as melodramatic, so please don't think that is the way I am.

As far as pay goes, $35 would be a good day for me. Our pay is less than $15/hr and with things being so slow, I rarely make $35/day. I have not made more than $900 in a month this year so perhaps I should have said closer to a 90-100% pay increase, using the $1700/mo figure? To answer your question, no, I don't wish to rethink my 50% because in most cases that is about accurate given that if/when the hiring resumes, things will likely be better and the airlines will have more block hours to be flown, and hopefully more hours per month for the pilots thus one can make more than minimum guarantee each month. As far as financial planning goes it would be irresponsible to plan for more than the minimum but I would be surprised if an airline actively hired when its pilots were having trouble making the monthly minimum. I may be wrong, as this industry is so bass-ackwards that it may have happened in the past.

At any rate, what do I know? I'm but a lowly CFI.

I can. How cool is this?

Take off, after 3 mins @10,000 AP on, the same conversation starts: "so... how long have you been working here?"

Regional flying is probably the least engaging type of flying out there.

A basic look at mins would be that Colgan is hiring. The pay is terrible the work rules are terrible and...well the pilot group is great. You know Colgan, do a search and you will know all about the place.

They are advertising 1000TT with 100 ME but there was an email sent out that realistically it is going to be 1500TT 300 ME with two internal recs. Now with those requirements there will probably still be 50+ resumes that will make it in the door for less than probably 10 slots.

Id say for the current time being that is a basic general idea as to what hiring requirements are starting to look like in todays market.

You're right, it sucks... In fact nobody in the biz likes it. What was I thinking? Must have blacked out for a minute there...:eek:

At least the guy was/is a CFI and lived to apply to an airline.... the last two years they were hiring kids with the ink still wet on their commercial tickets, and the IOE Captains were having to play flight instructor to teach these kids everythign they didn't even know that they didn't know.
As bad as it is, at least the folks who've done the CFI time probably know how to fly.... at least a little.

TI am basing my figures on second year pay at my company and his company.

You were once, not very long ago if you are on 2nd year pay, in this position. Seems a little hypocritical is all.

Actually, I'm on 4th year pay but that's not the point. Sure I took every interview I got for experience, but I didn't go to the first company that came knockin. I was hired at places where second year pay was in the twenties, but I didn't want to contribute to de valuing this profession, plus I don't think this job is worth that. If people keep taking these low paying jobs just to "get in" there will eventually be no reason to be "in". If we can't afford to feed our families, what's the point?

What a bunch of crybabies on here. The industry is going through a downturn now- some people are gonna get nailed and it's not fun. It doesn't last!

Someone mentioned earlier about the people that got into a regional at the beginning of the wave after 9/11 and hopped quickly to a major but are "now furloughed."

I'm one of those, however a long ways away from being furloughed and should be able to not check off the 'F' box. You cannot beat getting on at the beginning of the wave.

I can't believe I just read someone suggest for the original poster to stay put as a flight instructor. What horrible advice...

I think a previous poster mentioned the number of commercial certificates issued last year. Here's some stats from AOPA... AOPA Online: General Aviation Trends

Also, another poster said they had $250,000 in college loans! I know it's getting more expensive, but those students or soon to be students - try a year or two of community college, online classes, certificates/ratings at a close FBO, work while going to school, etc. Then if you need to, spend a couple of years at Embry, UND, whereever. The way the industry is now, it'll take forever to pay that off (all subject to change in 5 years of course).

Things change
 

People have mentioned that aviation cycles and it is true. However we are seeing some big changes going on here. Unlike past slowdowns this recession is huge and oil is threatening to go up again. I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet. The industry needs to constrict a bit more. Many airlines have not yet even recovered from 9-11. Some mighty old trees of the airline industry have yet to fall.

I just don't think we can count on another typical return to the good times. Even then they were not all that good.

Skyhigh

Hobby Job
 

I have enjoyed reading this thread and I have noticed a trend. Lately there has been an increasing amount of statements like:

"You have got to love the flying because there is no money in aviation".

"Money is not an issue for me".

In a recent post someone mentioned being "250K in educational debt". I have always used 150K as an average price for a four year college education and flight training.

If it is true that as a pilot group we have reached a place where people can expect to shell out a fortune in education and training to then be followed by most of a decade of low wage experience building jobs to finally make a bit more than a mailman then lets call it what it is. A hobby job. A personal vision quest. Aviation martyrdom.

Most rational people would not consider blowing a fortune on the returns being offered as a pilot. I do not wish to criticize others for following their passion. I merely think it is important to correctly identify that for most aviation is not a sound investment into your future but a personal life choice that offers few returns other than sunsets and flight obsessed satisfaction.

So if you are miserable in your current position and think that it will get better as a pilot then perhaps you had better think twice. Most here will only get to enjoy a few sunsets for their troubles.

Skyhigh

Very well put. I would almost go so far as to say "move along nothing to see here" but it would be too harsh for the starry eyed folks and CFIs doing steep turns all day. It's like crack, you know it's bad, you still got to try it...

look its up to the individual, if you have the fire for it pursue your dream,no one ever said this was going to be easy except the pilot mills.there are easier careers to pursue,there are certainly more lucrative ways to earn your tay,but if in your heart of hearts there is no other path for you,then pursue it,ignore the naysayers, especially those who quit and didn't stay the course,you may end up left seat in a 777,or a Dehaviland Beaver, but that is up to you.Good luck,Godspeed !

Great post, I will only add to your highlighted sentence, that if your passion will allow you to be happy with either, then aviation is definatly for you.:D

Amen !Amen !

Addition
 

I would like to add that I think it is important that people who are considering this profession be provided with a full and honest accounting of what a life in aviation entails. It is natural for those in aviation to project an optimum bias.

Having guy like me around to flesh out the negatives I believe is a good thing. If someone can endure the full brunt of my presentation of the downside and still is game to press on then perhaps they belong.

I for one would have run had I known all that I was up against. My intent with this career was to make a good living and to build a good life. I made a huge investment in education training and almost two decades of my life only to learn that it was not going come even close to meeting my expectations.

I did not have APC when I started.

An aviation career is about the airplane and nothing else. You can't count on wages, lifestyle or even being able to stay in your own country.

Skyhigh

[QUOTE=SkyHigh;640208]I would like to add that I think it is important that people who are considering this profession be provided with a full and honest accounting of what a life in aviation entails. It is natural for those in aviation to project an optimum bias.

Having guy like me around to flesh out the negatives I believe is a good thing. If someone can endure the full brunt of my presentation of the downside and still is game to press on then perhaps they belong.

I for one would have run had I known all that I was up against. My intent with this career was to make a good living and to build a good life. I made a huge investment in education training and almost two decades of my life only to learn that it was not going come even close to meeting my expectations.

I did not have APC when I started.

An aviation career is about the airplane and nothing else. You can't count on wages, lifestyle or even being able to stay in your own country.

Skyhigh[/QUOTE

I stand by my last posts

Good times?
 

Good times? I would like debate that issue as well. :)

I will give it a rest when the opposition does.

Skyhigh

Well I think the word is out. I have a few friends that are still instructing or know a couple of people at the local airport and they have very negative perceptions about the airlines, particularly the regionals and most of them are true. Except for the one where they think RJ FOs just do the radios....., that is not true. There's A LOT of interest towards pt91/pt135 flying, of course the jury is still out on what they would actually do if a shinny airliner is dangled in front of them. I also stand by my crack analogy.

Seems a little oxymoronic to me. But I agree with you about the luck.

In addition to persistence, a successful airline career requires two things:
- Enough skill to meet the minimum standard.
- Enough luck to land you at the right company at the right time.

7 Days a week! I'm lucky if I see that many students in a week. Being a CFI can be tough, but being a CFI with out students isn't very fun...

Took me 11.5 years of active duty to get my 121 job. And I agree with other posters here. If I had to do the military route all over again, I'd find a Guard/Reserve unit that flies tankers.

i agree with you. its no fun with no students. Im in a good area where the recession hasnt really hit hard. People are still flying and wanting to fly. i know some CFIs would love to be where im at right now. and dont get me wrong, im not complaining that i work 7 days a week. i enjoy doing what i do very much.