how long is the line....
 

i understand that we are headed back to the days that 1,000tt (even 2 or 3) are going to be hiring minimums again. as a flight instructor for almost a year and half now looking to move forward, with no luck obviously, how long do i have to wait in line for a job. realistically, are we talking like 1 year or like 5. i know there are way to many pilots on the street that have more experience than me. what can a CFI like myself expect?

First thing is first: the airlines need to start hiring. Once this happens, I would say hiring mins will start high (2000-3000tt + turbine time). I would say that after a 2-3 years, after demand increases, you will see people being hired at airlines with a commercial cert and a dream to fly jets.

You can find any entry level non CFI jobs like cargo. But for the airlines, there has to be jobs first. Think of all the airlines that are not hiring, which are pretty much all of them. Now think of how many of those airlines have people on furlough. It's just going to be tough because personally I don't think we have seen the bottom yet at the airlines, if things stabilize by this year then maybe it will take about a year or two to see steady hirings. If things go further down this year with bankruptcies and consolidations then I would say 2 two or more year before hiring.

The key for you now is to build three things... and 4 if possible: Total time, multi-engine time, and PIC time being the most important. Secondly... try to acquire turbine time of some sort.


I would say that 1500 total and 300 ME will be the minimum for a phone call when things start moving again... and one last thing: Network!! Qualifications, personality, and who you know are the 3 key things with getting anywhere in this industry.

Best of luck- the best time to get hired is at the beginning of a cycle.

Right, and the Colgan thing wont change anything.

thats what they keep telling me. i have students 7 days a week (even all day today while everyone else is having fun drinking adult beverages) and try to put my time in. i know that every hour built counts. my mentality is struggle now so i dont have to later.

That's a funny statement right there! ! !

That's probably the only good thing about those that missed the bus. After 911, those that "struggled" were picked up in the regional hiring waves and made the majors only after a couple of years. But now they're furoughed.:eek::eek::eek:

hahaha that is halarious

If you've been around these boards, as you obviously have.... what mental defect are you suffering from that you haven't learned a single thing that anybody has been trying to tell you. Every once in a while a new posting shows up saying what should I do, or expect....
well, here it is...
Go get a law degree, make tons of money, and buy yourself a nice TBM700 to get your rocks off.

This is spot-on for the post-9/11 hiring rebound...I would assume that will hold true this time as well.

I wish it were that easy. My girlfriend has a law degree. 10 years experience total. She has been a MD States Attorney, worked at a DC law firm, in a Navy JAG with defense experience and is currently the Staff Judge Advocate for the entire western region for NCIS.
She read this post and asked that I pass on to all of those considering a law degree that although some lawyers obviously make the big bucks, it has many similarities to aviation. A LOT of lawyers are struggling right now. Just like swimming in the pool for NJA - many new lawyers who are recent graduates and were hired on a big law firms in the MD/DC area have been told that their jobs are on hold. She personally is looking at getting out of the JAG and back into the courtroom - hopefully Federal, but back to the State level if not. She is finding out that many DA budgets have been cut over the last year and are expecting more in the future.

The road seems to be long and rocky in almost any career at the present time.

USMCFLYR

because thats just the cure of it all huh? go do something else because it pays better and does better in a crappy economy.

never go after a job cuz it could do better in a bad economy. it never works out and/or you will never be happy. but some people see it differently i guess.

but wow, terrific and motivational statement. do you ever think about that advice right there?? maybe i dont give a crap about law or treating sick people for a better buck than being a pilot. how about the fact that money is not an issue for me. its not my fault you obviously hate what you do. but ill take you seriously when you give me some better advice than that.

good luck dude.

It took me 8 years from when I started flying to when I was lucky enough to get a 121 job.

Be patient.

Your struggles will only get more difficult once you are lucky enough to get that dream 121 job.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, CFI for a little under two years now, working 7 days a week and wondering when the next round of hiring will happen and if guys like you and me will be competitive to get hired. Its frustrating now to hear people say "do something else" or "go find a 135 or cargo job" as if it were that easy. I'm hoping for no more than 12-18mos. until we have a shot but more realistically I'm planning on another 2-3yrs. until we have a chance, given the expectations for the economy and the lag time in the aviation industry. As far as minimums go I wouldn't be surprised to see 1500-2000tt, with 250-300 multi being the lowest we'll see for a while after the hiring begins again just based on what mins have typically been when hiring resumes. Just my humble $.02!

Timing and luck is what this job is all about. The next cycle will come and those in the position to take advantage of it should reap the rewards of catching the wave. I was lucky and fortunate enough to catch the last short wave and I had people telling me the whole way that it can't be done and the dream is dead, etc but don't listen to them if this is what you want to do. Work hard and keep your goals in front of you and you may get there before you know it. Good luck

Why isn't it that easy? That is where a lot of people are right now in this industry, dropping flying and looking for another job. If you are working 7 days a week your pay right now is more than you are ever going to make flying for a regional in the foreseeable future.

Job
 

Fly for and serve your country? Active duty, Guard, or Reserve. Good pay and benes, etc. Serve a cause greater than yourself. Best training in the world to boot. If you don't like it after your committiment, jump.

That's an 11-12 year commitment after officer training and UPT. :eek: Long time if you get screwed into a UAV and won't do much if you have follow-on airline dreams.

But who has the money to do that...Including interest, I have about 250K in student loans right now! Thankfully I'm getting my Masters degree for free to kind of off set that. And honestly if I had the money I WOULD get a Law degree (HOWEVER only as a backup...My number ONE and ONLY dream is Flying!) but again...in this economy who has the money?:(

I think it'll look more like 2000TT, 1000PIC, 100-500 multi, Turbine Time, 121/135 experience.
Keep in mind there are 1000+ pilots with those mins on the street now and 135 guys adding onto their time waiting for the next few hiring waves (myself included)

Back in the mid 80's it took 3000TT and at least 500ME to even get a call from a regional and that was to fly a 19 seat TP....... I would expect the requirements to be around this or just slightly less. I know everyone want an instant job with the majors but try and enjoy flying not just the dream.

wise words,the key thing is to love even the dues paying part, i was hired into the DC3 with 520tt,11 multi,8 tailwheel,and stayed in that ship the next ten years because I loved that round engined,tailwheel style of aviating.It is all good, sunrises viewed from a C152,a 727,and the Excel,are all beautiful. hang in there,do not give up on your dream,that is a guaranteed way to become bitter. becoming a lawyer wont solve your problem.stay the course,and if possible fly 135 freight,you will learn lessons there that will be invaluable,and will hold you in good stead further down the pike. Read Gann,St.Ex, and keep the faith !

Hang on a minute...you're only talking active duty. Finding a Guard or Reserve slot is the best option and will not put you into a UAV nor will it be an 11 to 12 year commitment.

To the original poster: I'm a product of the mid 90's where the job market was similar. Then, PFT reared its ugly head. Seemed like I could not get a break. You missed the hiring spree of the last few years, but trust me, you will be a better, more complete pilot than those 250 hr wonders hired the last few years. I have more respect for you than those "pilot factory" instant pilots that walked into a job.

Since you actually have to work hard for a job, you'll respect the position more. You won't settle for crappy pay and work rules because you understand the value of the job, unfortunately you'll be mixed in with those wonder kids who had jobs handed to them. There were a hand full of 250 hour newbies that could handle a "shiny jet", but not many. You, on the other hand, will be well prepared from flight instructing and hopefully 135 experience. It may seem boring and repetitive now, but you are learning a lot, take full advantage.

If you have your degree, apply to as many guard and Reserve units as possible. If not, and finances permit, GET IT!!! Find a way, even if you don't have the money! My degree is from a state school and not in aviation, I'd recommend a similar path for you.

Hang in there, this is an industry with vicious cycles. The good times are very good, the bad times are VERY bad, and the time between these cycles is very short. In fact, there is usually no in between, history shows a lot of companies hire right up until they need to furlough.

Good luck! You'll make it, just have the patience and perseverance to ride out the bad times.

P.S. I just noticed your screen name. I take it that you're a WMU grad? if so disregard the "go get the degree advice" since it seems you have it. However I'll leave it in my post for others in your shoes who have yet to finish college.

I realize there are furloughed pilots out there with thousands of hours when hiring resumes...BUT when things do turn around, won't airlines prefer CFI's with adequate flight time from 141 schools & jet transition programs? Everyone knows that the furloughed pilot will always be jumping around to the next best thing. I would THINK the CFI is more likely to stick with the company for a longer time. I'm not saying this is the way it will be, just a thought of what might affect hiring.

I am sorry but you are 100% wrong. Those with prior experience will be hired first. But as always some people will get hired because of who they know. It's tough to jump ship for another airline even when the going is good. Seniority is everything, and if you ever want to make Captain people are going to have to suck it up as an F/O for a couple years. Jumping ship just resets the clock. CFI is great experience and it keeps you in the aviation loop, but those with prior airline time will be the first in class.

Don't go in the Air Force. One half of the pilot graduates this coming year are going to fly UAV's. I would be so PO'ed!!!!!:eek:

Typical Navy puke:D...Go Navy and chances are very good you'll be in a Helo. Guard of Reserve all the way!!! You will know exactly what aircraft you'll be flying(and it won't be a UAV).

Hey USMCFLYER,
sorry for the thread creep, but is your girlfriend down in SD? My wife is the Senior Special Agent (SSA) for an NCIS office in the Western Region and says she works with EV from time to time. Just curious?

TC

Hey Man, don't be so defensive. You're right, go Guard or Reserve so you know what you're going to fly. I just read an article last week that said for the first time this coming year, more than one half of all active duty UPT grad were going to drones. Don't shoot the messenger! I think the number were 370 grads to manned A/C and 375 to UAV's.

Chill Brother!:cool:

Shack! Check your PMs.

USMCFLYR

I would HOPE the money isn't an issue cuz there isn't much anywhere in this industry. If you don't do it for the flying you're going to be severely disappointed. Good luck. I did my time instructing and flying freight. In fact I have been trying to get my freight job BACK but they, like everyone else are not hiring right now. My freight job was MUCH more enjoyable than this Regional crap. I would leave this job tomorrow for my old job.

Come on now, that was obviously a joke. I agree with active duty going to UAV's, that's why I'm saying go Guard or Reserve. Just trying to help a new guy out and point him in the direction of opportunities without worrying about getting UAV's.

See ya in DTW or MSP...your DAL N brother...

Because as CFI's we aren't competitive against guys on furlough from the airlines. It's hard to make yourself seem like the better choice over a pilot with thousands of tprop or jet hours when you have thousands of piston and a few hundred light twin hours. I'm working 7 days a week and I'll be taking almost a 50% increase in pay going to a regional, the pay at my flight school is horrible.

I'm giving the military serious thought, but the 10yr. commitment (Navy) or more for the AF is a very long time, and with no guarantee of getting fixed wing out of flight school it makes it hard to sign the papers. As stupid as that may sound, I just have no desire to fly helos or UAVs, especially with my long term goal set on flying for a major (someday, many, many moons from now).

My apologies, mis-read the tone..... Just ran into a FNWA guy down in the pilot lounge in LAX couple days ago. Nice guy.... Looking forward to SOC so we all get to start flying together.

Back to the thread. You are correct about going Guard or Reserve. We have the California Guard Unit at Point Magu in Ventura County and I have seen them advertise for new pilots. This is the way to go for someone starting out. Get training, turbine time. It's career insurance in this crazy industry, so if your company furloughs, you just go "feed from the trough" at your Guard unit and still make a great living. Not to mention that oneday you'll have a very nice retirement.

I Socal the unit has a mission of fire fighting in addition to the regular C130 mission.

WMUFLYBOY, you may not have considered this, but give it a thought. It could possibly allow you to skip the Regional level all together and go straight to the majors after you put in a little time at your unit. Don't let the military thing scare you off. You shine your shoes, cut your hair and say sir, but it could be the best move you'll ever make in your life...... My Delta "newhire" class had 3 guys from the Alabama Air guard. They were flying KC-135's at the time. The youngest guy was 25-26 and had been flying "Heavies". Not bad, mid-twenties and at a Major.

TC

You guys keep making it sounds like an airline would actually have a choice to hire you over a furloughed guy. There is no choice. It's the furloughed pilots job to come back to if they want it. It's not like the airline can just blow off the guys they furloughed and skip to you.
Now, if they recall the furloughed guys and some choose not to return, that may create openings.

Re-reading my post, I can see how you misinterpreted it, sorry for the lack of clarity. Thought the :D was enough. Good advice above, Guard bumming is a good deal in tough times.

No, no not at all, I'm sorry if thats the way I made it seem. I know the furloughed guys get priority over us at the airlines, and that is the way it should be. I'm talking about the night cargo and the Pt. 135 jobs, it is hard for a guy like me to be competitive right now against a guy on furlough from an airline.

I realize I sound like I'm whining, but I understand why things are the way they are right now. Please don't think that I believe I am above paying my dues in this industry, I know that is the standard and to expect to not have to would be downright dumb.