I don't follow. Are you saying that ASA pilots are solely responsible for pursuing one list? I think our best chance for one list failed with the resounding "no" vote from the SkyWest ALPA drive.

classy......................

WOW, just what I expected. Here let me point out what you missed...............
For clarification I guess I should have said "equally responsible." Bottom line is that both pilot group majorities failed one another.

Skywest girl captain I know had a line for the first time in a long time. I think its the at risk flying

Being one of the new furloughies, I think it blows. The chief pilots did an excellent job in letting us know of the furlough. Then all of the memos came out from upper mngmnt. Which of course made me feel like a tool, not to mention that I worked for Tools.

As far as ASA verses SKW, When ever I taxi out behind one, I say im following company. HA. I also think that we should merge. IM about sick of ALPA. There constant taking of my money and doing what with it? Representing me? Yeah right!!! ALPA guys care about one thing....And thats ALPA guys. If a new guy has something to say thats important, they turn and say and I quote "you are new to this, You will understand when you gain some seniority."

Im not just mad that I am losing my job while I have a kid on the way, Im mad that my representation does nothing to protect me and My employer cares nothing but saving a short term penny to please an airline that is overly frugal. :mad::mad: Oh and to through another kick in the pants. I just dropped 200 bucks to keep my flight benefits for the next year two weeks ago. Guess who is out 200 Bucks.

SO my last few words of my rant are. Vote ALPA out and merge with SKW!!!

Yep, a buddy of mine who was hired at SKW in Oct 07 (RJ) just got his first line. He's never broken guarantee and now he will.

Click on APC Forums page and this advertisement comes up....Does this seem ironic to anyone????????????? Furlough the ASA guys and get cheap tickets on SKYW. HMMMMMMMMMMM?!?!??

I just don't understand why people think this. If ALPA was voted out of ASA, who would negotiate the merging of the lists? Hell, who would convince management that it would be a good idea?

All that would happen would be that ASA would be separated into the "good ASA" and the "bad ASA". The "good ASA" (70/90s) would be transferred to SkyWest, lowering their costs further by hiring new people, and all the senior ASA guys flying them would be out of a job. The "bad ASA" (50s) would be slowly bled down like Comair, taking advantage of any future 2-for-1 deals by moving the 900s to SKW and bleeding the 200s from ASA.

As for the $200 in travel fees, contest the charge with your credit card company. Explain that it was a required fee for your job, and now you are being laid off and the company will not refund it. You will get your money back, credit card companies are very pro-consumer when it comes to chargebacks.

I still don't see why ASA pilots are "equally responsible." In our 2007 contract we negotiated scope provisions that, while not one list, keep what's ours ours. The fact that no further airplanes have been transferred between the companies shows that it has worked and that management is not willing to comply with our rules about aircraft transfers.

In fact, we negotiated scope for SkyWest pilots. If their airplanes are transferred to ASA, their pilots get to bid on coming over to our side and are integrated fairly. It also covers aircraft transfers to any yet-unknown SKW entities... which would have come into play had the XJT purchase gone through, or any future purchase down the road.

What scope has SkyWest ever negotiated for ASA pilots? All I remember was the big fat finger they gave us after the ALPA drive.

The fact that we were not able to achieve one list during our last negotiations was based more on an unfriendly NMB and an unfriendly management team. In fact, negotiating one list would most likely result in massive concessions (a la Eagle's 16 year contract) to get the deal done. After all the concessions were agreed to, guess who's contract the SkyWest pilots would be operating under?

In fact, if ASA and SkyWest were to merge right now, ASA would lose big time. We have about 10% of our list on furlough, and 65 captains that will be soon FOs again. Even if there was a DOH merge (which would never happen because it would favor ASA), furloughs would go to the bottom of the combined list, and the newly displaced captains would stay as FOs on the list.

So, it's a "be careful for what you wish for" scenario for sure.

You're talking scope.................I'm talking whipsaw. Did you or did you not have merger language when SKW purchased you? Regardless of the NMB, your 07 TA was passed by the majority thus allowing SKW and ASA to remain separate. ASA's pilots aren't "solely" responsible because 65% of SKW pilots voted down ALPA thus stoping the merger from our end. In short I’m saying that we are where we are because of the shortsightedness of the majority at both airlines.

I'll give the scope issue to you. As for the “massive concessions” part, believe what you want but they played the game and won by buying you out.

I never really thought about how the process of the merger would go about. Good point/s.

It still seems that SkyWest would still offer at least some temporary gigs for us if they are really short. Sounds good on paper at least.

No, if you moved over to the SKW side you'll give up all rights to an ASA seniority number, it's a cost issue. You will keep DOH for benefits but that's it.

Currently I understand the pecking order for a SKW new hire class is as follows:

1. UAL furloughees
2. ASA furloughees
3. Poolies
4. Interviewees

And what are they suppose to do? Better yet what can they do? In other words, has ASA violated your contract with these furloughs?

Didn't think so..........so how can a union legally hold the company to something you never agreed too? The pilots being furloughed have no furlough protection, right? Now if ASA furloughs protected pilots and ALPA does nothing then you can repost the above and I’ll agree with you. Until then all your union can do is wish you the best.

A fitting video based on the circumstances I'm facing.........
YouTube - Office Space - Move You Downstairs

We did, but it covered a purchase by another airline with the intent to merge. SKYW, Inc. did not intend to merge the airlines and altered their corporate structure to not trigger that clause in our contract.

Very few airlines have a merger clause that will force an instant merger -- XJT and RAH are the two that I think off off hand. XJT had willing management that agreed to that language, and RAH gave up a lot in their 03 contract to get the language (they have terrible workrules compared to the rest of the industry).

Our 07 contract (it is no longer a TA once it is ratified by the pilot group) did not cure cancer either. So I guess ASA pilots are responsible for that too?

With a more favorable NMB, one list may be possible this go around. However, everything comes at a price. What are you willing to give up to get it?

I never said that the SKYW, Inc. purchase was a bad thing for us. I think you would only have to look at Comair to see where we would have been.

However, remember it's the same people that own us that own you. Right now we're getting shafted, but for the whipsaw to continue to work, one airline can't just be taking it in the shorts forever.

Why didn't the company offer leaves and early outs before furloughing to try and mitigate the number.

Just Another Shrinking Airline

Yes, SKW went the extra mile to keep us serparate.

What? You guys couldn't cure cancer? Bunch of slackers you are. :D

As for the TA, yeah I meant 07 contract…….it’s late.

Couldn't agree more and I tell that to every FO I fly with. Unfortunately many can't see past the nose on their face.

Good night.

How badly is Skywest being hit compared to ASA?

I though the majority of your block hours came from DAL? Also, if SKW is doing pro-rate with the 120s and the CRJ200s, why are they not also trying that with the excess ASA aircraft?

They could transfer and ASA's contract would protect the Skywest pilots in that instance.

The difference is that ASA made gains in their vote (which Skywest pilots also benefit from). Skywest pilots gained nothing in their union vote.

How would voting ALPA cause a merger? Even it you went independent, it would be status quo as far as merging goes. Lets think rationally before doing things that don't make sense. I know you just got really bad news so its expected. But don't go the same path that US Air east guys went when they got their bad news. If you don't like the leadership in ALPA, recall them and vote in new ones...its easier than decertifying anyways.;)

As a side note, JA himself said that that language is the reason why they wouldn't transfer aircraft.

Lack of scope is whipsaw!!!

The ASA contract, like any contract, is a comprimise between two entities. Both entities were willing to trade certain things for others while getting something else in return. The SKW union vote was just a surrender.

well....at least we have the option of coming over to Skywest if they start hiring again before ASA recalls...that's not a bad deal....it's really the only positive thing I have to look forward to, well that and college footballl starting soon :D

Just stating the obvious.

About 33%-35% of SKW flying is DAL with a portion of that being Pro-Rate. We've seen a drop in ATL flying of 30% and a drop in SLC flying of about 20%.

That's pretty much on par with ASA but because of UAL we've been able to squeeze by.

I'm pro-ALPA and I still disagree with this statement.

Just wait until the 20 airframes depart ASA. That will trigger 100 more furloughs and 100 more downgrades. If the industry and economy are so bad, why would anyone think ASA would be keeping those 20 planes?

So you're banking on ASA breaking the contract?

Considering the number of red-arrow days (25+ per month when only 4 are allowed), no one should be surprised if ASA tries.

Heyas,

PMFJI, but he long term plan for DAL is to shrink down and attrit the 50 seaters down to a 50-70 number to serve nitch markets, very similar to what the remnants of PDT/ALG is doing for LCC. Larger aircraft are near the cap. I've heard that DAL management say that overall RJ flying(of all sizes) is still too big by about a 3rd, and doesn't fit with "the brand" (whatever that means).

While I feel bad for the furloughees, the days of fungal like growth at the scooters are over...

Nu

Good, I'd rather see the regionals shrink and see mainline recapture the flying. I'd rather sit out on the street for an extra 3 years flight instructing and working another job then get back sooner and be stuck at a regional for the rest of my life.

When does ASA's contract expire with DAL? Isn't it 2014 or something like that? Whenever that contract expires is when things will get really messy. I wouldn't be surprised if all the -200s disappear and we only fly the -700s and -900s for Delta. We could lose all of the 70+ seater RJs too or see it transferred to Skywest, who knows.

Anyone want to start some kind of pool for recall? I'd say recall in time for the 2012 summer travel season.

Does anyone think ASA will furlough into the contract when they are forced to park the 20-200's in the spring? I was talking with the ALPA guys in the lounge yesterday at the town hall meeting and they said the company would have to declare bankruptcy or lose their operating certificate, be grounded by the government for the company to be able to furlough into the protected pilots...The company has been pretty good about honoring the contract, minus crew scheduling...

I wouldn't count on anything, a clever enough lawyer will figure out a way around that clause to benefit the company. Hopefully it doesn't get to the point they need to furlough more, but who knows.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the language is the contract is grey there. There is a difference between a restricted day and a red arrow day.

You are correct sir! The problem is that the company has created a method to get around the contract in this area but using 'red arrows' and not declaring them restricted. Not saying they can or will, but if the company wants to furlough again, they will find a way to do it.

I couldn’t agree more.
The ASA purchase agreement between DAL and SKYW Inc back in October 05 added 5 years to our current CPA pushing both airlines contracts out for a total of 15 years………..or 2020. Yes there are loop holes but every contract has them. Keep in mind that every time DAL and SKYW Inc agree to an amendment the new subsections have their own time frames. (Ex. Swapping 20 CR2’s for 10 CR9’s)

SkyWest Airlines

Quote:
“Through this acquisition, our company will enter into long-term agreements with initial terms of 15 years with Delta at both ASA and SkyWest Airlines, making SkyWest the most significant regional relationship in the Delta Connection program.”

I think that’s very realistic. Unless SKW benefits from more UAL flying, then I’d expect there to an opportunity for ASA furloughees to cross over to the dark side.:D

I wonder why they don't use some of the excess ASA aircraft for pro-rate flying?

I know you are pro-ALPA and one of the good guys. But it is fact that there were gains made in ASA's contract. What gains did Skywest make from their last union vote? That's the difference.

I don't know but I'm starting to see a real double standard.

The gains were like intangibles that didn't benefit anyone but SKW pilots (We spell TEAM....."i"-Tea"m-e"). Remember that we haven’t furloughed yet and the company seems to be more willing to take risks with our pilot group in an effort to keep moral high and remain non-union/Pro-Jerry. Once again, a double standard.

I don't see it as the "dark side," I'd work for Skywest if given the chance. I have many friends over there and I don't wish anything bad on them.

Skywest at least has domiciles besides ATL, if I had know how much that place sucked I never would have taken the job with ASA. Sherman did everyone a favor when he burned that place down :D

(Better go hide for awhile before the die-hard southerners catch me :eek:)

Trying to blame Skywest or Delta or ALPA politics is not the way to go. We all know the economy is not getting better right now Everyone that came into this industry after 9/11 ought to know how much it is lacking in job security before they forked out all that money for flight school. This career now has the job security of a professional athlete, instead of a 6-term U.S. senator. Everybody has to have a backup plan, side job, or any other creative way to make a living outside of aviation. If you do not, you ought to pickup "150 Best Recession Proof Jobs" by Laurence Shatkin and start looking for a backup plan.

That sucks. I remember I got a call from the ASA recruiter but I never went because I heard of the long reserve times.

How's the reserve time at GoJet? Sounds like you made the right decision!

there goes the thread!

My favorite part of reading this thread has been all the AllATPs "Airline Career Fast Track Program" ads splattered around the borders. "Hey kids! In 90 days you TOO can be collecting unemployment like a REAL AIRLINE pilot!". :rolleyes:

This quote from our resident GooJet cheerleader also made me laugh.

Mod note:

Looks like another United Nations post - a little flamebait, a little thread drift, a little of everything.

Try to stay on track, eh? Or I'm going to have to agree with Gunga Galunga (whatever kind of name is that?? ;)) Don't make me give out infractions; I really don't like to do that.