Those that commute on UAL, MUST READ
 

As a SkyWest pilot that commutes from the east to the west coast, I have the need to fly on United from time to time. We got this email from our SAPA president, regarding the "fun" that United Express carriers are experience with the new nonrev fees. What wasnt understood was how jumpseating was going to work. WELL HERE IS THE LOWDOWN after our SAPA president contacted UNITED.... EVERY COMMUTER SHOULD LOOK INTO THIS and talk with their reps at ALL OUR AIRLINES.... There are a few issues that as PILOTS regardless of who we work for need to know and act on and in my opinion THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

Here is a cut from our President Update....

"Yesterday I called UAL to get clarification to something written in the SWOL Q & A (Question 13) that says we will not be able to jumpseat in any open cabin seat unless we paid our fee (remember for all the other UAX carriers it is $20.00 per leg… and could change for us come 2010 as well). UAL confirmed that this statement is TRUE. UNACCEPTABLE! What they also stated was that there are NO UNLIMITED JUMPSEATS as all cabin seats belong to UAL. In other words even our fellow pilots at ASA (UAL’s example) would be denied a cabin seat when attempting to jumpseat unless they had an ID90 (as they do not have UA travel benefits), or the flight was full and they could ride in the cockpit. I talked to UALPA today, and they are unaware of this statement, and will be researching it in the next few days (it COULD affect their jumpseat policy as well for OAL pilots). In the meantime, I think we need to campaign our management to NOT SIGN THE CONTRACT until we get this worked out. The bad news is that SkyWest is the only Express carrier to have not signed. The good news is that as long as SkyWest hasn’t signed, we will remain status quo (no changes to current structure).

Yet another unbelievable Tilton tactic. Don't let this ride guys fight it tooth and nail. I'll do what I can from my end. If this happens to you it'll bne industry wide before you know it.

fwiw...i ride ual mainline A LOT when i commute (i just started commuting 3-4 months ago). i never list on expressnet 1st, just go up to the gate and request to list for the jumpseat. i have yet to ride in the actual jumpseat, they always give me a seat in the back, and I have not been charged for anything. i certainly hope it stays that way. if they start charging for cabin seat when we are omc's then they are gonna have to allow us in the cockpit even when there are open seats in the back.

how do u think we're going to pay back the 1.5 billion next year

That's it, right there.

Although I usually have to sit jumpseat, they have been very good to me too.

So let me get this straight. Tilton wants me to further subsidize his poor leadership abilities when I commute down to serve in the military, while he continues to be one of the highest paid CEO's (is this still a fact?) Maybe I should just sign over my entire 20k paycheck to his wife so she can spend it all on hats.

Delta has been this way for well over a year now.

Well not quite. They were supposed to start charging on a per leg basis, but they haven't. I jumpseat/nonrev on Delta regularly and have yet to be charged a per segment fee. They do; however, charge a much heftier annual fee than was charged last year. It appears United is charging UAX pilots $20 every time they want to ride in the back.

Delta also has an unlimited jumpseat policy while it appears that UAL will no longer offer this benefit. This bit alone is disastrous for commuters. If both you and I were trying to get on a UAL flight to DEN or wherever and there were 50 seats open, only one of us could go because there is only 1 jumpseat in the cockpit. Yes, an ID90 would solve that problem but it costs extra money and takes time that a commuter may not have before the flight departs.

I'm sure you already knew this stuff...I was really just babbling on for the sake of others so they can compare this to what is happening at UAL.

No good post Noodles...

Some of us have only been doing this gig for a couple months and most of it is OJT or trial by fire.

I'll spring for a hotel if need be before I give United a dime......

Didn't this forum and UAL pilots get all torqued up a few years ago when Airtran was charging $25 after the first JS?

old news, weclome to the NEW suck.

Delta charges a $50 annual fee for pass travel. Although I was pretty happy with NW's totally free pass travel before the merger, $50 a year for unlimited travel is not bad at all.

Everyday I get on here, I can find one reason why I am bummed about being furloughed, and about 50 why I am glad that I got furloughed. I commuted to IAD on United from OMA through ORD for a few months and always found them to be pretty decent. But what this basically boils down to is having to pay to go to work. I got treated better when I worked at Target a few years ago then I have been treated as an airline pilot the last 2 years. We really need to get the standard of this industry back to what it was back in the day. Maybe I just missed this, but does this apply to UAL mainline pilots too? Or just us lowly regional and OAL guys.

You might want to recheck your numbers. It was $50 and now it's more like $200 or so with a segment and mileage charge for buddy passes. At first the segment & mileage fee included everyone but then it was changed.

I've heard romurs DAL's going to change it back next year.

At the DCI wholly owns it's still $50yr with higher yield fares for buddy passes and travel companions.

Good point, I forgot Mesaba was wholly owned.

??? I pay an annual fee for, and there are no other fees on DAL...this includes all nonrev and JS for me, my family, and even parents (including first class and international). I think they are supposed to charge international taxes, but I don't think I got charged that the last couple times :confused:

Ah...I didn't realize the $50 annual fee was retained for the wholly owned companies. We pay a much higher premium now at the non-owned level. Our fees are based on how many people are registered on your account, but starting fee is around $200 and can be several hundred more I believe.

Still pretty good for free travel to anywhere in the world if you ask me. In 2008 I estimated that my free travels around the globe were worth as much as $200,000 if one had bought tickets.

Pretty good unless your CBA lists free travel on your carrier as contractual. :cool:

It's 50/pass rider up to $200.

Wait a min, is this for all jumpseaters? I work for AWAC and use United and never have a problem. But am I going to start having to buy ID90's too? One more reason I hate the airlines.

Yo Hal.... News flash, United PILOTS have nothing to do with this policy in fact if anything we will be the ones to block it. Thanks for your understanding on this matter.

I'm talking about Delta not letting us jumpseat in the cabin unless we've paid our annual fee ($220).

Until I have 5yr with AMR I get charged to nonrev.

Im sure this will not go over well with other jumps you are going to start seeing UAL pilots not able to JS on other airlines if they only allow one or two.

If it were up to the pilots, I'm sure most would allow as many jumpseaters as there are open seats. However, I'm betting United gate agents will play "gatekeeper" to enforce the new policy. (Much like DAL gate agents prevent us - Skywest - from jumpseating unless we've paid their annual fees.)

true but people will not see it like that

Once again the management team at United have demonstrated where their priorities are. The sad part is that this is only going to hurt the United pilots. Limiting jumpseats for other airline pilots will only warrant a reciprocating policy from other airlines.

thread creep addressing Delta Connection
 

FYI- both ASA and Skywest have unlimited jumpseat agreements with Delta. If you are an ASA or Skywest pilot (or any Delta Connection pilot) and the gate agent is refusing you access to a jumpseat on Delta (cabin or flightdeck) you need to first talk to the PIC of the Delta flight.

If the PIC can't be reached, or doesn't have the 'stuff' to tell the gate agent that the PIC is the one who grants jumpseat access, not the gate agent, you need to contact your jumpseat committee chairman.

The fee on Delta is for non-revenue travel. A pilot also has the ability to jumpseat. Different agreement, different rules, and the inability to non-rev doesn't preclude a pilot's ability to jumpseat, be it in the cabin or the flightdeck. Yes, it's complicated by the way Delta Connection pilots are usually listed (they're on-line, not off-line, which is using CASS), and it's really probably worth the fee just to avoid the hassle of an ignorant gate agent, but, by the principle of it, the fee is not required to jumpseat.

If you don't understand this (especially if you're a Captain, so its your job to grant jumpseat access on your own aircraft) please contact your jumpseat committee.

Sorry for the thread creep. Back to the thought of United's unlimited domestic jumpseat policy changing.

Thanks for the info. I am aware of all that - however, it's often very difficult to get a hold of the PIC in SLC, short of calling crew scheduling and having them connect you. And the couple of times I've tried to JS without my fee being paid, the gate agents were quite stubborn about not allowing it. My wife occasionally uses Delta's ZED agreements, so I just pay the fee these days.

Let's talk about something else; I don't want to vomit on my keyboard again. But seriously, I'm not going to "opt in" for United travel benefits. If this new jumpseat agreement gets signed (I think it will), commuting to Chicago is going to get very difficult.

IMHO any airline that profits from it's employees are on the road to becoming a bottom feeding operation.

To date, cuts in pay, reduction in health benefits, cut backs in retirements, now pay to commute.

What's next? Co share the expense for hotel rooms and crew meals??? Reduction in Per Diem?

Sniper,

While you are technically correct on the unlimited jumpseating policies, you are incorrect in its application. The DAL computer system will not allow more than one (or two depending on the number of jumpseats in the cockpit) jumpseat card to be printed. If you are a DCI carrier pilot in order to get a cabin seat assigned you MUST have paid your annual fee.

So, if a Comair (for example) pilot asks for "the jumpseat" on a plane with one jumpseat, and a Skywest pilot walks up and does the same, the computer will automatically transfer the skywest pilot to the non rev list....as soon as that occurs the computer looks for an active PPR, if the skywest pilot has not paid their annual fee ($200 in most cases) they will be denied boarding. This occurs EVEN ON OUR OWN AIRPLANES! if say an FAA or LCA is in the seat already.

Hope that clears it up........

Here is the reply from the United MEC,,

To: United Pilots

From: MEC Jumpseat Committee
Captain Bob Spadea, Chairman
Captain Frank Palombi, Vice Chairman

Re: MEC Jumpseat Committee Update
UAX Pilots and Pass ChargesUnited Airlines and all UAX managements have signed an agreement whereby all UAX employees that occupy a cabin seat on any UAX flight will be charged an associated fee. It is also expected, but not written in this agreement, that UAX pilots would also be charged for a seat while traveling under the provisions of unlimited jumpseat travel on their own carrier, as well as other UAX flights.

Needless to say, the UAX pilots are outraged with this agreement. The UAL-MEC Jumpseat Committee is also in agreement that there be no charges levied for a jumpseat, flight deck or cabin. UAX pilots jumpseat agreements allow for unlimited jumpseats to all offline carriers as well as their own pilots. We fully support these UAX carriers in their efforts to exercise their agreements to their fullest .However, we cannot negotiate on their behalf, nor can we represent them in discussions with their respective managements. We will do everything we can to support these UAX pilots with their endeavors.

With this new policy being implemented, there may be some disgruntled UAX pilots who will accuse the UAL-MEC Jumpseat Committee and UA flight ops of being responsible for this policy change. Flights ops and your Jumpseat Committee are in no way responsible for its content. If you jumpseat on a UAX flight, you may encounter a UAX pilot who that may want to deny you a jumpseat. We have not seen any correspondence from the UAX jumpseat chairpersons that they would deny our pilots a jumpseat because of this new policy. Therefore, these pilots may be acting on their own behalf. Should you encounter a denial as a result of this policy change, we ask that you contact the Jumpseat Committee as soon as possible. We will not tolerate this conduct and will make the UAX Jumpseat Committee chairs aware of this immediately.

Where United Airlines and the UAX managements have entered into this agreement, it is incumbent upon the UAX pilot groups to confront their managements with these policy changes and correct them as appropriate. Your Jumpseat Committee will offer any assistance it can to the UAX committee chairs in getting this policy, as it pertains to jumpseating, reversed.

PIC authority, flushed down the toilet
 

Sadly, I understand perfectly (I know you're doing your best). If you fly Delta Connection, you will pay a non-rev fee to jumpseat - unlimited jumpseat agreement (an agreement signed by management of both Delta and the applicable Delta Connection carrier) be d@med. Though the agreement is unlimited, the way it will be treated for Delta Connection pilots is 'as many jumpseats as there are flightdeck jumpseats on the aircraft', ie, limited, partially reversing one of the few gains the Delta MEC secured in the midst of watching their contract get worked over in bankruptcy.

My bolding and underlining in the quote.

Same thing. On-line pilots jumpseating = paying a fee to jumpseat. The unlimited jumpseat agreement UAL management signed with each UAX carrier's management? That is now superseded by a new non-rev agreement, one that doesn't even mention jumpseating, but will impose non-rev rules on jumpseaters anyway.

Did I miss the part in the UAL memo that says: "You, as the PIC, will be the final authority as to the jumpseat. We worked hard to secure unlimited jumpseats for our fellow pilots, and we will not allow UAL management to re-write our jumpseat agreements" - the UAL MEC was a party to the unlimited UAX jumpseat agreements, after all. No, instead, we get . . . "we will do everything we can to support"; words are great, but there is no actual written guidance to UAL pilots on how a UAL PIC can support the UAX pilots. Thus, UAL PIC's can be reading this memo as the gate agent and the UAL computer system charge UAX pilots for jumpseats.

No guidance to help a UAX pilot or to administer a UA jumpseat on your own aircraft as a UA pilot, but UA's Jumpseat Committee will "not tolerate" any UAX CA exercising his/her PIC authority and denying a UAL pilot a jumpseat? At the very least, not a good choice of words.

---
There was a time when a jumpseat was a request made from a pilot to the PIC of the aircraft. The gate agent merely assisted the PIC in this process. Now we have MEC's allowing the authority to control the jumpseat to transfer to the gate agent and a computer under the auspice of 'security'. There is NO security risk allowing a pilot in a secure area access to speak with the PIC in the same manner any passenger would have access, nor is there any reason to treat jumpseat applicants as non-revs.

I highly encourage all Delta Connection and United Express pilots impacted by this to contact your jumpseat committees, and, for those of you that are ALPA, contact the ALPA National Jumpseat Chairman. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

MM, this is typical BS. GK would have never stood for this.;)

I agree that is some seriously weak coffee there. The problem being that I as the PIC won't even know about a jump seater until it's to late as they have to negotiate the CS agent before I ever get a chance to talk to them.

By the time they get to me they've already been charged. IT is BS and I will do all that I can to see that it is fixed. I can guarantee you however that if I have any say in it no JS'er will ever pay to ride on my airplane.

I've begun making a trip up the jetbridge immediately following block-in...I make damn sure that the gate agent knows that no jumpseater will be charged, and that they will be accomodated, regardless of what "operations" may say. Please do the same, and get the word out that the Jumpseat is no tool for use at the ground staff's discretion.

I am a little confused. Let's say I work for Air Wisconsin, and I want to jumpseat on UA to get to work. Will I be charged? And how? They will ask for my credit card at the gate?

no, its the regional guys that fly under united express. we're being charged to nonrev on united/uax, so i guess we were attempting to get around that by jumpseating instead of nonreving... but apparently now they're charging us to jumpseat too. SUCKS for commuters.

This is just yet another whipping that ALPA is taking from UAL and DAL. I wonder if ALPA will just limp away to a corner somewhere after the beating or chew the arm off that's beating them. So far, just limp away has been their habit. Seems there's no end to the abuse that ALPA is willing to suffer. Just give it up, disband the union and save the dues for another giveback coming soon. :mad:

According to what I understand it to be is that those airlines that do not have pass agreements (non rev benefits) with UAL.

- Only JS will be allowed up front for the amount of JS that are avail.
- UAL owns EVERY seat in the back and if there is room in the back and you are trying to JS, you MUST have paid your Non Rev benefits fee, OR have an ID90 for travel. Thus company policy only allows an OAL pilot to sit up front if there is not a seat in the back. THE BIG CATCH 22...

This is how it has been explained to us at SkyWest... There are a few that I have flown with that plan to deny the jumpseat to UAL commuters if this comes into play... But just like any controversy it seems that some that I have asked their opinion about while jumpseating just shrug their shoulders and say that it is wrong but what can we do, its what it is...