Major liability for regional mistakes
 

Airline laments hiring of Flight 3407 pilot : Home: The Buffalo News airline laments hiring of regional pilot.


I want to point out a very interesting point in this article:
"But the executives withheld judgment on a new proposal by Sen. Mike Johanns, R-Neb., that would make major airlines legally responsible for crashes by the regional airlines they hire to run their smaller routes."

I think there is alot of merit in this comment. I strongly agree with Senator Johanns proposal, because it will help put an end to underbidding contracts, which is an underlying problem in the poor pay and quality of life in the regional airline industry. Majors would start awarding contracts based on more than just lowest bidder (preventing automatic awards to bottom feeders like CJC), because they now share liability.

The may force many of the majors to either directly control their regionals or perhaps own them outright. The larger regionals will fare better then the smaller ones and those that already have a tightly controlled network will see little changes and thus less future expense.

I saw this before you posted it and that comment also was the one to catch my attention. I agree with you.

Completely agree, this would be a great step for the industry. Hopefully the Senator makes it happen. Where is ALPA on this one?

I would hope that they'd pass a law stating that a corporation can have only one operating certificate.

Very good point. The thought of a major whipsawing a pilot never even crossed my mind, since I've been accustomed to seeing it at a regional level. I think I might contact my congressman about that one.

Excellent idea. Seriously, not kidding.

Think of the poop storm that would ensue with all the contracts that have language concerning ALL pilots on the certificate on a single seniority list.

I sure wish they would ask a pilot.

I totally agree. I like this idea. I think it would only be a step forward for regional QOL and for the industry as a whole.

Nothing wrong with the proposal, but any halfway decent plaintiff's attorney is going to get the major airline on the hook anyway...they sold the ticket.

Anything that can strengthen and improve the regionals is a good thing and any method of raising the bar should be embraced.

Bingo! You can probably bet that Colgan, Continental, Pinnacle, Bombardier and any company involved with the airplane are being sued as a result of 3407!

Congress seems to be behaving fairly rationally here by pursuing a reasoned, intelligent approach... is this a sign of the End Times?

Talk is cheap. When I see some real changes I will believe it.

that would be nice to see

Moreover, Trenary said that since such records are expunged after five years, Colgan might not have been able to see Renslow's entire test record.

:confused:

What? If I failed a check ride over 5 years ago it is not in my records. Do I understand that correctly?

Does anyone have more information on this?

The so-called, "single-level" of safety that is being qouted by industry and gov't leaders is one of the biggest lies in all of aviation. A product of deep-rooted corruption at the highest levels of government and industry. It truly makes me sick hearing this being cited...We must face it, our profession and industry are mere shadows of themselves.
Unless and until we get relieft from the RLA things simply will not change. Unless ALPA gets it's act together and presses for a single seniority list. Things will not change. CJC 3407 is going to go quietly into the night, and in the end real change that effects our QOL, pay and benefits is not going to happen. The slim margains, high fixed costs and per-departure fee structure of the regional/codeshare partnership doesn't allow for the funds required to effect our lives. What will effect is going to be a new and ridiculous set of rules that further errod the authorty, initiative and freedom of action that was once the Pilot-in-Command. Centralized systems are a proven failure, and it will fail in the airline industry when they start screwing around with even more burdensome regulations...

Rant complete,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

He may have been referring to PRIA, which only requires that airline records go back five years.

I don't think FAA records ever expire (except letters of warning).

Wouldn't that just bite the big one for:

Republic Air Holdings
Republic Airlines
Chitaqua (sp)
Shuttle Americrap
Midwas Airlines
Frontier Airlines

Pinnacle Air Holdings
Peanuckle Airlines
Colgan Airlines

American Eagle
American Evil Airlines
Executive Airlines
Actually for that matter:
AMR
American Airlines
American Eagle Airlines
Executive Airlines

Delta Airlines
Compass
ASA
Comair
Mesaba one other I think too...

I'm sure there are more... and I think the intention of the idea is good, but It would cause a real big mess.

And why exactly is that? are there not laws on the books that say you call fatigued when fatigued?

are there not rules at each and every one of your regional/commuter airlines that says you write a plane up when there is an observed defect?


You ALL continue to report for work on time after "scheduled" reduced rest, getting flights out on time, with aircraft that have known "small" defects that "can wait for write up until the end of the day"... Then you fly all day with several multi-hour sits between flights, and the flights still go on time due to mission mentality....

then you expect to be treated, and paid, as a "professional" after acting like that ?

Brian Bedford at Republic has PROVEN there is money in regional airlines otherwise he would not be buying two large plane operators in one month... the notion that the margins are too slim to conduct yourself as a professional, and ground aircraft that have known defects, and to not report yourself fatigued, and to get flights out on time at all costs just re-affirms that while there are many many pilots, and some of them very very very good pilots... there are NOT a lot of professionals.

the only thing proven by bedford is that when you spit in a pilots face he will still do his job as long as the jet to be flown is large and shiny.

The margins are slim after the company execs, board of directors, and preferred shareholders get their cut. They will always make sure the first two groups are taken care of.

wow i was wondering when the next RAH bashing fest would begin. I didnt think it would come from a thread with this title.

While I agree some responsibilty needs to be taken for mainlines pure focus on the bottom line, I do think this is quite the slippery slope. While it may riegn in the so called 'bottom feeders', it just sounds like a new avenue for lawyers (not that they haven't taken it as mentioned earlier). Let's remember that Comair (5191) is about as far from a bottom feeder out there. While some responsibilty should fall on how mainline chooses their contractors, I think it should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Fankly, I think our legal system already polices this. Regardless if they are going to be held responsible or not, the cost risk benefit may still fall in mainline's favor to choose the lowest bidder.

Bedford is smart enough to understand that at the regional level if you have stagnation you have death. Mesa was saved by the new contract. If you have regional f/o's for 10 years with a mesa contract you are dead.
Republic has to have growth or movement or something or the pilots grow restless and performance suffers.
Mesa
ASA
are perfect examples. Give them (pilots) a livable wage and watch the problems dissapear.

- I've seen some of the schedules at at least 2 major carriers and "short" overnights are there too.

-I'm sure there are just as many pilots at majors (percentage wise) who elect to "carry" minor maintenance items improperly. Actually this is impossible to quantify.

- The major airline schedules I've seen also contain long "sits" between flights.

- Plenty of major airline pilots also face the issue of balancing a fatigue call (and lost pay) and continuing on.

By this token (and your assertions), then there are PLENTY of "unprofessional" pilots at major carriers too.

The problem with your position is you attempt to make this industry a black & white world where all (or 90%) of the problems are only at regionals. I don't buy that for a New York minute. Since the financial woes of many of the majors post 9/11 and the concessionary or BK contracts of the last 8 years, these problems exist industry wide. Yes, some of the smaller regionals like Colgan have far more then the average amount of problems (which should be corrected), but not ALL regionals are that way. On the other end of the spectrum, a LARGE percentage of Eagle pilots schedules are pretty good and have 15-18 days off and their 3-day trips aren't THAT bad. Pay rates (especially F/O) for many regionals are another argument, but your continued criticism of the regional industry is based more on emotion then fact.

Well, you have one of the most aggressive "regional bashers" present here now and he has one mission and is relentless.

Don't sweat it too bad. After all, that's all it is.....................opinion.

In all fairness that's essentially because a number of hard-won major airline contracts were turned into regional contracts in BK. UA's narrowbody contract is the perfect example, Contract 2000 got turned into something worse than many regional contracts in BK.

I would like to see this headline instead:

Airline laments hiring of ... [insert one or more] CEO, CFO, President, Vice-President, Director of Operations, Chief Pilot, Director of Training.

I can not believe you are defending the regional industry ?

you do work for one... correct?

Yep, some majors have a "few" short overnights... and if you take a look at their schedules, you will likely see the next morning flights going out late... you regional guys will bite the bullet and show with only 8 hours cockpit to cockpit....

I'd be willing to bet that at major carriers, a pilot has more to lose by accepting a POS aircraft than by writing it up and getting it fixed. Their duty rig, or trip rig will cover them while they get it fixed like they are supposed to... oh wait... you don't have those either....

Sit's... sure, majors have them... they also have trip & duty rigs.... see above.

When every single hour of pay is needed just to put food on your table like most regional pilots living hand to mouth, it is much more difficult to pull the fatigue rip chord... you can deny it, but it's true.

Oh, and you are correct..... 90% of the problems ARE at regionals.

DING DING DING DING DING.... we have a winner....

EagleFly... you listening ?

Eaglefly does work for a major airline. The difference is that it has regional compensation.

OMG.... YHGTBSM. the problem with your statement was the second sentence.... when he has to "qualify" his reasoning, then it isn't true.
That is like comparing the Chief of Police in New York City to the Chief of Police in small town USA... hey, they are BOTH Chief's right? Come on guys, have we lowered ourselves to this? Eagle, Comair, and Republic are no more Major Airlines than a Cessna 172 is an Airbus A380...


Sure, there are a few regionals with larger pilot groups, and more aircraft than a few major airlines.... but if calling himself a major makes him feel any better, feel free. Everybody else knows what a reagional carrier is, except him apparently.

I dont think he is the only one. Check up to the right and click on "airline profiles" continue and click on "Major-National-LCC" and see what you find there..........

Also check with the FAA and ask what Airlines in the US they consider as Majors..........

You will clearly be surprised:rolleyes:

Just because I didn't print the entire list that APC lists as a major airline doesn't change anything.... they also comingle LCC's with others too... big deal. The point is he seems to think he works at a major airline, and not just a very very large regional airline. Next he'll compare Eagle with JetBlue since they are both listed in the same section... come on guys.

I think I saw a US Senate hearing the other day with the CEO of EagleFly's airline sitting there.... he certainly wasn't there representing the major airline they subcontract with... they are regional carriers working as subcontractors for mainline airlines; period.

Using the labels major-national-regional in the most correct sense refers only to airline operating revenues. It certainly has no bearing on what those airlines do or where they fly (ie SWA, a major, does "national routes", as does nearly every "regional" these days; actually SWA flies more properly "regional" routes than many regionals!). The terms mainline-LCC-subcontractor make more sense. Until you get to RAH & YX; who is who in that unholy arrangement?

Mason, I'm not liking this recent trend of my agreeing with everything you say. You need to stop spewing logic and sense.

Another example of sweeping generalizations to feed your hated for regionals....................more senseless noise.

Knock yourself out.

To you ?

Never.......it's always the same.

For many it does.

It would be great to have 75K F/O's and 150K captains on 70-seat jets............but then again, you'd still complain and demand our death. You don't WANT to improve regionals to become "respectable" in compensation, you want their elimination so you can reap the rewards.

Are you listening Mason ?

The problem ISN'T the RJ in and of itself. The problem was how the unions (ALPA and the APA) and pilots at the majors handled..........er, shall I say FAILED to handle it. Instead of demanding close control and a tight relationship with those pilots that would operate them, they chose the policy of EXCLUSION and now it's come home to bite them. In fact, for example STILL the APA is maintaining that course by seeking to capture ALL flying Eagle does, even that flying they NEVER did !

What becomes of the pilots who built this carrier for the last 20 years, they couldn't care less, it's strictly a conquer mentality as if we as pilots don't exist.

Incredible.............but, predictable.

Several years ago, we saw this hopeless course and attempted to engage the APA positively for the benefit of both groups. As in the past, a facade of cordial interest and cooperation was presented even culminating in public billboards to show a new era. Then, documentation was revealed that at the very same time, the leadership of the APA was schemeing behind our backs to attempt to strip our 70-seat jets from us in secret without our knowledge.

We retreated with the olive branch we brought over firmly planted in our backs, vowing to always remember the lesson.

It IS interesting you label us a "major airline" when it suits you. Most of your other posts repeatedly refer to us as "commuter pilots". Heck we rarely even rise to the semi-respectable title of "regioanl pilots" in your diatribes and now all of a sudden I'm a major airline pilot.

Amazing.

Will we still be a "major airline" if it ever came down to merging our seniority lists (highly unliklely) ?

I'll bet not. Well be right back to commuter pilots again, worthy of nothing but what scraps you and your union cronies are willing to grant us.

You're just like Mason and just as much a part of the problem as ALPA and the APA. The solution is a MENTALITY CHANGE and not the "eradication" of an entire segment of the transportation system that cannot and I'm afraid, WILL not disappear as much as many would like it to. As long as the "hostile attack" method is embraced, you can only expect conflict, defense and minimal if any results.