AP: Pilot Fatigue to be Addressed
 

Hi!

Here is the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090901/...dydWxlc2NvbWk-

The article is basically summarizing the current situation with regards to the Flight/Duty time revision process.

Quote:
The advisory committee on pilot fatigue was expected to deliver its recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration late Tuesday.
Quote:
Some members of Congress don't trust the FAA to finally come to grips with the problem. A bill under consideration in the House would force the agency's hand. It also would require airlines to use fatigue risk management systems — complex scheduling programs that alert a company to potential problems.
After the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee approved the bill last month, Chairman James Oberstar ran through a list of airline crashes in recent decades.
"The common thread running through all of it is fatigue," said Oberstar, D-Minn. "We have many experiences of the flight crew, the cabin crew, who in cases of emergency were just so numb they couldn't respond instantly to a tragedy at hand."
cliff
NBO

I wonder if these new regulations might actually force larger work forces? Probably not, but it depends on how airlines want to handle more restrictive work rules. They can either cut more flights (likely), or add more pilots (unlikely).

Prepare for 60 hour lines with 11 days off and 16 hour layovers everywhere

What a coincidence, that's the exact line I have this month!

In the long run, they likely will although short-term the airlines might just cut schedules a bit.

The 20,000 question is will these rules reduce significantly productivity, forcing more work days for less pay?

Something needs to change. Train conductors have way better rest requirements than pilots. In my opinion, they also need to limit the number of legs we can do in a day. There's no way in hell that an 8-leg day is safe for anybody.

Yep, life is going to suck. Pilots are going to pay in terms of QOL. There is nothing here that is good news for pilots.

Even though we all don't want to be paid less lets not forget this is about safety. We've all been pushed to the limits duty wise and I for one think its downright dangerous if done more than once in a great while. Some of the regionals out there push their crews to the limit day in and day out all while sleeping on airplanes overnight and being paid nothing.

Our unions have always been the ones to set days off and pay so they are the ones we need to turn to now and ensure that our QOL doesn't slip because the government is trying to make our jobs a little bit safer.

I think 5 should be max.

You betcha. Law of unintended consequences will come to bite us big on this one. Prepare to be gone more for less pay and fewer of these jobs. I doubt there will be a mass hiring wave because of changes, more likely will be reduced capacity (park more airplanes) to shrink to a sustainable size.

Reduced capacity? If they reduce their capacity any more in some markets, they'll just be shooting themselves in the foot...pax are so disgusted now with oversells/cancellations and rude gate agents/staff that I've heard more than one talk of driving, taking AMTRAK if it's available or just not traveling.

None of those are good outcomes, and entirely avoidable if the mainline carriers could think beyond the end of the quarter and "analysts expectations". Of course the one long-term thought that all of management has in common is what color their parachute is. Gold seems to be particularly popular in our industry. :D

It think it is likely that we will see daily legs taken into consideration. Sounds like it will be something along these lines:

12 hours max duty, no extensions.
10 hour max flight, with 2 legs.
More than two legs and you start reducing the legal flight hours. Net result would be a max of 4-5 really short legs, or maybe 3-4 longer legs.
10 hours min rest, not reducible, and starting/ending in the hotel lobby.

I have also heard the time zone crossing reg. (US only) If anyone of your legs cross a time zone different than your origin airport, you will be limited to 7 hrs. total flight time.

One has to wonder even if rest requirements improved will these laws have the opposite effect as intended. Will pilots drink more on the road and get less quality of sleep due to all the free time? Will pilots push their commutes and sleep in airports more so they can get more time at home due to reduced days off? Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean it will have the desired outcome.

Oh my god. Can you say girlie-men?? I don't even know what to say, for those hiding behind the veil of "safety." I hear it in the crewroom all the time! Y'all want to never fly more than one leg a day! We've all had a 16-hour, 8-leg day, and if you can't handle that on occasion, you don't belong in the flightdeck!

Incredible...

I think the problem is that it's not "on occasion". It's built into every trip... Just like reduced rest isn't "for emergencies", it's scheduled into trips now...

And, as a pilot, YOU should know better... Just because something is legal, doesn't make it a good idea. Because you got away with flying tired a few (or a few hundred) times doesn't mean it's a safe practice... Cook an engine at v1 in a heavy plane on that 8th leg at 16 hours "legal to start, legal to finish" in the ice and THEN see how "manly" you are.

On occasion. Some places do these "girlie-men" 16 hour, 8 leg routes on a daily basis. So since your wonderful place of work, wherever it may be, is so amazing that they only have these days once in a blue moon, please, spread your awesome knowledge around so that others may benefit from the awe-inspiring knowledge you posses to choose airline employers oh great captain of non-fatigue.

Ok Randy Savage.

Keyboard commando at it's best.

Next time I’m fatigued in the cockpit I’ll just make sure to keep flying but at the same time mention that in the event of an incident or accident I don’t want to be called a girlie-man by ExperimentalAB on Airline Pilot Forums for calling in fatigued.. you know, just so it’s on the CVR.

The $50,000 question is why does anything need to be done when there are perfectly good rules in place that already protect a pilot? I guess the only thing I've thought was BS was the min of 8hrs. Bump it to 9 and call it a day. Most of the fatigue related incidents were because of bad decisions made by the pilots. Laws can't fix that. You can take a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. All a pilot has to do is pickup the phone and say "I'm fatigued" and it's a done deal. I've never called fatigue but we have called and had departures pushed back an extra hour or two and it didn't take much effort.

I've heard one recommendation from the FTDT BRC was an increase from 8 hours to 9 hours on a 12 hour max duty day. If there is a time zone restriction, that would prohibit transcon turns (which B6 was looking for).

I'm also hearing limits on night flying, 9 hours max duty for night operations (still not sure what defines an FAA night operation, but I could guess)

Pilots have been fired for just "calling in fatigued."

Your posts was one of the dumbest I have ever seen.

If pilots were fired for calling in fatigue then they didn't bother exercising any of their legal rights. If my company called me to come in after a fatigue call you could bet the farm a Fed would be there with me waiting to hear what they have to say. The law is already in place and you can't be fired for obeying it. I call BS on your post. The issues that have sparked this debate were due to bad decisions made by the crew. No law is going to make someone feel perky after taking the red-eye from SEA-EWR and showing up to work brain dead tired. I'm not saying there aren't things that could use improvement,ie rest starts at the hotel and not when the aircraft is parked, but I do think these measures being argued don't deal with the issue that these people chose to show up to work fatigued. They had the choice to pickup the phone and stop everything there, with the full legal backing of the FAA, and they didn't. This has been the case in several instances. If you're scared of being reprimanded for calling fatigue then I suggest you call the FAA and speak with them on the matter. Fatigue/sick calls are the same. If you're unfit to fly you're unfit to fly.

Clearly you're looking at it from a management perspective and not a pilot perspective. The science has proven that performance is severely degraded upon reaching 16-17 hours time since awake. So now you have to factor trip/line construction, commuting, layovers, among others. A lot of you guys think is just a matter of 16 hours duty and 8 hour min rest, that's just the tip of the spear. ALPA, the FAA, the NTSB, the JAA have all been looking at this issue for many years. So please don't be offended if I weight their scientific and practical opinion over that of an f/o with limited experience in the matter.

Reform needs to happen, but many folks on this site are just concerned about how it's going to affect their paycheck, putting safety at the bottom of the list. While there is an element of pilot responsibility in this whole equation, the current rules allow even the "best" companies to create schedules and push pilots beyond the safety boundaries. Schedules and seniority varies among the folks on this site, but be mindful that most of us have been subject to flying fatigue at one point or another.

So I'll ask this question of you and anyone else brave enough to answer. If you were walking your family to the airplane, and you suddenly find out that the two guys "driving the tube" only slept 4-5 hours the night before, would you still let your family board that aircraft???

Wow, what fairyland are you living in? People HAVE been fired for calling in fatigued before. (And no, that's not the reason given.. Usually management will just wait till their next PC, say "Oh, sorry, you were a foot off at minimums, sorry, you're fired")

Spoken like someone who is either a management stooge, has no idea of how the real world works, or is one of the JetBlue transcon traitors. Either way, it's pathetic.

Sorry, but can you tell what those perfectly good rules are that already protect and pilot? Please quote the specific FAR, as well as why it's a perfectly good rule.

Sorry, but there isn't much difference between 8hrs and 9hrs.

You ever do something like a (insert Mexico 9hr overnight here) with 1 hour of transit time back and forth to the hotel?

If the pilots were better rested , they may not have made that bad decision, a la Corpex, AA at LIT, etc. Was not the 170 CA at CLE under pressure due to a sick/fatigue issue?

Sounds easy enough. My company has instituted that a fatigue call now has to be ASAP'd. There's been more than one guy that's done it, and has to come into a hearing with the ERC, as well as the FAA to clarify what led up to the call in the first place. Making it ASAP, good idea. Requiring the pilot to come in and explain it, BS. And my company has a strong MEC, I'd hate to see what would happen at companies with weak union leadership, or none at all.

You're right in a lot of what you said. I agree for the most part. I've commuted since day one. This month I'll stay in base roughly 5 times but that's my own choosing. I could move there but I chose not to. So I do the right thing and get a hotel room. I could take UPS and not do it at all but I know how bad it feels showing up worn out. Unless they want to force pilots to live in base what can really be done? I routinely fly 8hr days with 12+hr duty and while tiring I never felt i was excessive.

I'd like to see required accommodations for sits over 2hrs(crash bunks in crew rooms are fine) and 9hrs min rest which starts at the hotel. However I still feel it's up to the pilot to know when to call fatigued. He/she should know their limits. It's not that I'm viewing something from a management perspective just feel that cutting 25% of my days off and doubling my commuting is going to wear me out much more than simply giving me an extra hour to sleep in my hotel. The FAA has already provided to tool of being able to call in fatigue. If you allow your company to beat you down and never make the call then that's on you as a pilot since it's your responsibility too.

You way you are happy with the rules then say that 8 hours is BS. Well, that is a one of the rules which NEEDS to change.

Fatigued pilots make bad decisions you say. I agree. So why not try to reduce the number of bad decisions by letting us get a reasonable night's sleep?

My guess is few if any pilots in recent years have been fired for "calling fatigued." But a bet there are a bunch of pilots who have called fatigued at an inopportune time and later got a few extra line checks, or a PC from H3LL, or letters of reprimand for not following uniform standards, or any other nit picky things that could add up to reason for dismissal.

Or maybe I am just paranoid.

The problem with fatigue is that very often you don't realize you're impaired until you're up in the air. Kinda hard to call in fatigued at FL370. That's why you need stronger regs, to prevent that situation from ever occurring in the first place.

Wow...

ToiletDuck, in your perfect world, yes, that would happen. As for the rest of us, we are far from a perfect world. We live in a world where it’s a race towards the bottom, run as lien as possible, and use your crews to the absolute maximum that's legally permitted. And then, at the end, try to screw there tired brain into a 91 repo flight.
I've heard many stories of fatigue harassments. One that comes to mind and stands out the most is a conversation with a chief pilot that went like this:

CP: Are you fatigued or tired?
Pilot: What's the difference?
CP: If your tired you can keep on flying.

It's not about whats morally right, it's about what is legally right and that’s the way they play the game. It's time to change that.

Far 91.13 "Careless or Reckless operation", FAR 61.53 section (b), FAR 63.19 "Operations during physical deficiency"[F/Es]. Check the back of your medical. You're walking around with everything you need to protect you right there in your wallet.

There's an extra hour.


A quote from the NTSB report: "By not advising the company of his fatigue or removing himself from duty, the captain placed himself, his crew and his passengers in a dangerous situation that could have been avoided." There's never a reason you shouldn't pickup the phone if you're sick or fatigued. Period. If your company fires you over it then they are breaking the law already.

How many people at your company have ever been fired for calling in fatigued? They might want to know why and that's fine but has anyone been fired?

I'm not making the point that there isn't room for improvement. I'm making the point that the leading preventative measure for combating fatigue is already there and not being utilized like it should. Let your company hate you but there's never a reason you should feel forced to fly. If you're sick or fatigued pickup the phone and make the call. I think getting that point across is more affective than some of these rules.

Maybe they should take into account physical fitness a little more while their at it. Some of these guys break a sweat and look beat to death just walking through the terminal carrying their bags :p

I agree 100% but read the NTSB reports and when there's an issue involving fatigue they all end with something along the lines of "The pilot failed to notify the company that he/she was unfit to fly". There is always an option for you to not get in that cockpit. If the company is willing to persecute you because of that then you need to get the FAA involved. If they're willing to break that rule they'll probably break others. It is your legal obligation to not fly if you're fatigued or sick. If you still do so then I'm afraid to say it's your fault. I've never hesitated to call sick. Tore my rotator cuff in the middle of a trip and left right then and there. In MSP once we waited over an hour for a hotel van and the capt made a call saying if they didn't move the departure time we'd be fatigued. The tools are there it's up to you as the pilot to make use of them. The company might not be happy and might want an explanation but you still get to make that call. If your CP or company is pressuring you then you contact the FAA immediately. There's a reason all of those conversations are legally required to be recorded. Don't be strong armed!

Let them work on whatever laws they want but for all you know it could take a long time and have little effect. But right now that medical in your pocket still gives you the protection you need for when you feel it's time to pull the plug. That medical makes it legally right. Morals have nothing to do with it.

I guess you missed my reply"

My guess is few if any pilots in recent years have been fired for "calling fatigued." But a bet there are a bunch of pilots who have called fatigued at an inopportune time and later got a few extra line checks, or a PC from H3LL, or letters of reprimand for not following uniform standards, or any other nit picky things that could add up to reason for dismissal.

I don't think you're paranoid I agree with you. Like I said make checkins at the hotel start your rest and go from there. Bump min rest to 9hrs and make it a hard number. I just think there's a big lack of attention on pilots not using current methods available to them to dodge this.

I've said my opinion on things. I feel making me work 25-30% more days per month and greatly increasing my commuting while giving me less time at home to relax and rest is going to wear me out more than some of what we currently have. I'd rather just get a mandatory 9hrs of rest not dropped to 8. To me it's always seemed ample.

If you're fatigued/sick then make the call. To me the "wow" factor is how many feel they don't have that option.

Please quote me the 121/135 FAR's that protect the pilot?

Not if 2 of those extra hours are used in transit time.

None that I know of, but that doesn't mean that like many others have alluded to, their life wasn't made difficult in some other area. And you didn't address the point of the ASAP issue. Should the pilot have to come in and explain a fatigue call? Since we adopted that fatigue calls have gone up.

Unable to see your point or agree with this statement. Airlines that schedule "rest periods" right at the FAR limit give no room what so ever to manage fatigue properly. Sorry, if you've never done it, you can't debate this point. Sorry to blunt with you.

There are no regs in 121/135 that protect the pilot because they aren't operation type specific. They are covered in the regs I mentioned above which must still be adhered to.


I agree 100%. Rest starting when the plane is parked is something I'm completely against.


I don't see why an ASAP would be required for a fatigue call. Do you asap a sick call? If they wanted to monitor them make it an irregularity report. Allows them to keep track of issues to make it better. So far we can't produce anyone that has been fired for being fatigued. The "I'm sure somewhere out there a guy got a harder line-check" doesn't make the case. Let the FAA know if you're being hassled. Don't be afraid to tell your company you aren't fit to fly.

Yes I can because regardless of if I've called fatigue/sick or not I know that it's still my responsibility to do so should it happen. I might not have called up and said "i'm fatigued" but we have called and had them move departure times etc and have never heard anything of it. Like you said I haven't had to do it yet and that's because as a pilot I take every precaution I can. I commute in the nights before and get hotels if I have to. I don't do red-eyes from one coast to another after little sleep that night then start a trip. I don't sleep in the crew room before a trip. I don't have a chronic issue then hide it from the company. Those were pilot decisions.

What was your other option? To continue flying with a torn rotator cuff? The real issue is pilots flying with headaches, colds, and other minor illnesses that occur more often in a year than most sick policies allow for.

What you consider to be keeping things simple by bumping required rest to 9 hours I consider to be an antiquated way of looking at FT/DT regulations. Is a pilot who flies a 6 hour transcontinental flight more or less tired than a pilot who flew 6 one hour legs? Does flying at 3AM make a difference to a pilot physiologically than 3PM? Science based rules are long overdue.

So the FAA can start to compile data and track it.

If the powers that be were as concerned with the FO's recordings of being sick as they were with the overall state of the accident, it may come to that, but I doubt it.

See above. Does the FAA get irreg reports at your airline?

Don't know, a buddy of mine that flew for Airnet got fired for it. Only had to talk to the chief pilot twice in his stint there. BOTH times were over a fatigue issue, the second time was the last, sadly.

When you say "we" do you mean the CA pretty much did everything? And why not tell them you're fatigued? Put it on the radar and let them know there is an issue.

Yes he made the call on behalf of the crew. Said the van had taken over an hour and that we needed the show time pushed back an hour or it'd be a fatigue call. Doesn't matter who picks up the phone. Why are you consistently trying to make a point that a pilot can't call fatigue? Are you saying you've flown fatigued becauseyou didn't want to tell the company?