Anything happening at Great Lakes?
 

Any potential hiring here? Has this dog danced it's last dance? Inquiring minds!!!

We're a little heavier on CAs than FOs. This was intentional, for some reason. A lot of reserve CAs have been called to sit right seat, and on a constant basis. Not sure of upgrades or hiring, but as far as I know, neither are happening, as of now. There may be rumors out there that I'm not aware of. Potential hiring? I believe we still have to bring back the 14 we sent home, before they completed training. Like I said, I may be a little out of the loop.

I really don't think they'll be hiring soon. The STL operation is on the verge of being shut down. Bids are out now for a replacement.

If GLA was going anywhere, it would have been long gone. GLA isn't going away any time soon.

Actually, the "STL has been shut down" rumor has been going for about a year and a half now, and it's still there. Nothing has happened yet, though. Nothing really new around here, we're just all waiting for our time...

STL is going away. Five carriers, none of them Lakes, bid on the contracts which end for us in October.

I wonder if Seaport could get this flying not that I want to see GLA lose the contract.

Is the GLA STL flying for AA connection?

Seaport only bid for CGI...they want to fly to MEM.

Ahh.. I just thought that be a place expand to but I see Seaport was in CGI today so your probably right

FWIW there have been some rumors of late centered around another 1900 operation to involve some flying for AA (connection?) out of St Louis....hmmmmm


When are the bids over?

the local 6 cities up for rebidding have until the 16th to put in a recomendation to the DOT. After that it should be a quick decision to see who wins. The leading candidtates in my opinion are Gulfstream, Cape Air, and the dark horse is Air Choice One.

if anyone wants to look over the actual bid paperwork, they can all be found here:

www.regionalaviationpartners.org

Latest I heard is that we MAY start hiring again in January, and Beech upgrades in November.

This industry is in a sad state of affairs when Great Lakes is being under cut.

Not to flame but please take the time to download the proposals from the above link and read all six of them. You might learn quite a bit about the EAS bidding process and what the Companys will look at in making their bids. They may be dry reading but they are definatly worth the read. Its not always as cut and dry as who bids the least, you will see that if you read them all. After what Ive read, I'ts not that GL is being underbid, its who puts together the best grouping of city pairs with fair price, combined with frequency of departures and size of aircraft, balanced with the gate fees and such at hubs, and what kind of guarentee the company is willing to promise, by risking the subsidy monies if they fail to complete them. I found it interesting that one operator guarrenteed a 100% completion (except for Wx cancellations), and it was not who youd expect. Please dont make assumptions without doing the research.

It is interesting to see how the EAS bidding works, thanks for posting the link to the paperwork. How does the EAS service get linked up with a mainline carrier (AA connection, UA Express, etc) It seems that these bids range from offering service to STL, ORD, MEM.

As of now GL doesn't link up with anyone. there is no AA connection in any of the cities out of STL operated by Great Lakes. That is one of the primary reasons that Great Lakes has failied at the station that I work(DEC). We have two major fortune 500 companies that do alot of international travel. despite the fact that we fly to STL daily, they still prefer to bus people to ORD to catch international flights.

Only one of the bidders has said that they have agreeements in principle(read: we might just be full of it) to go to ORD with gate availability, and ground handling. It would be nice. If anyone wants anymore details on the proceedings feal free to PM me.

When there was a code share airline here in DEC, emplaned pax totaled close to 16K per year, as of this past year we only hit around 1200. That may have to deal with the fact that STL has dramatically decreased flying as well. anyway, I don't want to rant too much. I've had a great time working the ramp for Lakes since I've been furloughed, and don't want to speak badly of them. I just hope for the best here at a lowly EAS outstation.

As Shulz said no AA codeshare, the main reason no one uses us (go figure). They wanted us to paint our STL plane in connection colors but apparently the five other schemes we now have are enough :rolleyes:

Right? However we are giving it up. Unless we procure more flying or we have a signifigant number of pilots leave I wouldn't anticipate new-hire classes any time soon.

Right, Lakes isn't being undercut, we didn't re-bid on the cities.

Lakes only rebid two cities through Kansas City hub, they dropped the rest

Before the United States Department of Transportation
Washington, DC
August 17, 2009
Essential Air Service at
BURLINGTON, IOWA Docket OST-2001-8731
FORT LEONARD WOOD, MISSOURI Docket OST-1996-1167
under 49 U.S.C. 41731 et.seq.
This document contains the response of Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd. to Order Requesting
Proposals 2009-7-9
Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd. is pleased to submit these proposals to provide essential
air transportation at these points in Iowa and Missouri.
In accordance with the instructions in the order to provide a "final and only" proposal,
Great Lakes has provided a description of the proposed service to each of these
Essential Air Service points.
Great Lakes will provide service at these Essential Air Service points in a similar
fashion as is currently offered and utilize our interline agreements with select major
carriers that enable connecting bag service through the hub. In addition, we have
code-sharing arrangements with United Airlines and Frontier Airlines. As connecting
schedules and frequencies allow and when practical, we will be offering the benefits of
of the code-share agreements.
All proposals contemplate the use of 19 seat Beechcraft 1900D airliner equipment.
Questions and comments may be referred to:
Michael O. Matthews
Chief Financial Officer
Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd.
1022 Airport Parkway
Cheyenne, WY 82001
(307) 432-7000
Table of Contents:
Subsidy Passengers Average
Proposal Service Point(s) Hub(s) Served Round Trips Equipment Requirement Forecast Fare
Part
1 Burlington Kansas City 3 1900D $1,997,602 7,000 $98.72
2 Fort Leonard Wood Kansas City or Saint Louis 3 1900D $1,292,906 12,750 $107.02
at
Great Lakes discretion

Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd.
Annual Compensation Requirements for Essential Air Service at
Burlington, Iowa
(at 98 percent completion)
Departures: 1,840
Block Hours: 1,840
Revenue Passenger Miles: 1,519,000
Available Seat Miles: 7,586,320
Operating Revenues:
Passenger: BRL 7,000 psgrs at $98.72 $691,040
Other: (at 0.62% of passenger revenue) $4,284
Total Operating Revenues: $695,324
Operating Expenses:
Direct: Aircraft and Hull Insurance $335,757
Fuel and Oil $792,021
Flying Operations $298,393
Maintenance $485,282
Total Direct Expenses: $1,911,453
Total Indirect Expenses: $653,239
Total Operating Expenses: $2,564,692
Operating Loss ($1,869,368)
Profit Element (5.0% of Total Operating Expenses) $128,235
Annual Compensation Requirement: $1,997,602
Bid assumes current schedule would serve as a representative schedule
Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd.
Annual Compensation Requirements for Essential Air Service at
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
(at 98 percent completion)
Departures: 1,840
Block Hours: 1,564
Revenue Passenger Miles: 2,244,000
Available Seat Miles: 615,960
Operating Revenues:
Passenger: TBN 12,750 psgrs at $107.02 $1,364,505
Other: (at 0.62% of passenger revenue) $8,460
Total Operating Revenues: $1,372,965
Operating Expenses:
Direct: Aircraft and Hull Insurance $335,757
Fuel and Oil $746,264
Flying Operations $253,634
Maintenance $450,004
Total Direct Expenses: $1,785,659
Total Indirect Expenses: $753,266
Total Operating Expenses: $2,538,925
Operating Loss ($1,165,960)
Profit Element (5.0% of Total Operating Expenses) $126,946
Annual Compensation Requirement: $1,292,906
Bid assumes current schedule would serve as a representative schedule

What fun would the internet be, then?

(PS, I know quite a bit about EAS bidding. I also know quite a bit about Lakes having worked there. Please don't make assumptions without doing the research.)

what shocks me is how ZK didn't bid any of these markets into ORD... i mean, that was the company's largest ops in the 90s. I remember when we used up all of F1 - F5 (well, most of F1 - there was a section blocked off for the United Freight & Mail folks).

No one bidding has an actual codeshare that will be useful. Gulfstream can't get CO to agree to use their code in STL, CapeAir has the same issues, and the one codeshare that gives them *some* flexibility doesn't fly to STL. This is going to be an independent run-down to see who can build traffic the best, and like AVS said, Caterpillar, ADM, and Tate & Lyle are not using the Decatur Airport.

I fly into Bloomington on AirTran when I can and drive down... its a shame that I just can't get a good connection back home to DEC.

3M, according to what I have been able to find, is courting a codeshare with AA. However if that doesnt work it appears they have a backup plan, its confusing and I'll spare the boring details, as you can look it up, but they seem confident that it will work. Only Time will tell. My gut at this point tells me, you will see 1900's flying under Americans colors in St. Louis soon. However, I have been wrong before many times:D.

... as American continues to emulate USAirways in Pittsburgh.

Wait, I think USAirways has more mainline flights in PIT than AA does in STL....

Damn that is a close call.:eek:

either way, it's just depressing as hell.

Touche'- please dont get offended by my simple observation:D but you are a pilot after all so............

Driving time from:

Quincy, IL - STL: 2 hours and 20 minutes

Decatur, IL - STL: 2 hours and 20 minutes

Cape Girardeau, MO - STL: 2 hours and 20 minutes

Marion, IL - STL: 2 hours and 10 minutes

Talk about pointless to have airline service to/from these places, especially to an airport as worthless as STL. How many millions of dollars is the taxpayer spending on this crap? The simple answer is "too much." There is nothing essential about this air service.

yeah, and up here in DEC it's 1 hr or less to 3 other airports with RJ service to ORD, DTW, ATL, MSP, DFW.

Might be essential to someones job??? Even small towns need travel ability for some of their buisnesses.

1000% agree!!! If you subtract what is gained through this service, from what is spent, and compare it to your average contract in Iraq, it would more than pale in comparison.:eek: Oops...I did it again!

I disagree. EAS stole a huge number of (real) charter jobs. How did those people travel before EAS showed up in thier town?

I have been following this thread and I would like to state my opinion. The first is that 121 flying is only one type of flying in the aviation world. Another thing is that a great number of my/our 135 charter jobs have been lost because we cant compete with a "gobment" funded program. BTW First year pay on a twin cessna in 2009 was a salary of 38K (for me atleast)... our planes made money on those routes without government handouts.

I don't mean to wish you guys out of your jobs but it's hard not to be a little bitter when we see the things we see every day. Our Charters have slowed way down while the number of pax flying stays the same.

The way I see it was we were doing fine. I was fairly compensated. The locals that needed to fly chartered a flight. Now, three 1900's fly in a day. Not one flight has more than 5 people on it. On your route I burn 55 gal, a 1900 is burning 150-180 gal.

What makes this program worth the money when there were guys already there doing it right? Maybe some towns needed it but mine sure didn't.

Just my opinion, flame away!

No flaming from me. But, I think you were, just maybe, flying for a failing business. I'm not sure you could directly attribute it to EAS. Chances are, the city was set up as EAS well before the charter company started, anyway, so they should have been aware of that fact and planned for that, prior to setting up the business. There is a little market overlap, I admit, but I don't believe it would be enough to send a charter company to the grave. I worked for a charter company (not as a pilot), before I flew for Lakes, that was within a 20 minute drive of one of the largest hubs in the country. They had no issue making money, and felt very little direct competition from the major airlines. A lot of smaller charter companies actually compensate their workers pretty poorly, and provide zero benefits. The one I worked for compensated their King Air pilots less than I am compensated in the 1900. In the 1900, I can think of only a few destinations that we serve, that are served by a charter company, as well. I don't believe the actual effect is quite as dramatic as you make it out to be, but I admit, there may be a little market overlap, and a small negative effect to the charter industry. But, we probably have 2-3 pilots jobs created, for every charter pilot job that may, or may not have been lost, as a result of EAS. We do need to negotiate higher compensation; I have no excuse for that. It should be directly in-line with industry average on type/ aircraft size. We're working on that. Final point. How many major airline jobs are created as an indirect result of EAS? I would reckon that the number is pretty significant. Remember, almost all EAS providers have code shares, or fly as express carriers for major airlines. We feed people to the hubs, to travel on the majors. Most of our business doesn't involve people just looking for a flight to the hub. They are looking at going to another final destination, which will involve flying on a major airline. Charter companies aren't specifically established to feed people to the hubs, like the EAS program is, and they don't have code share agreements, which provides the majors with money and passengers. How many major airline jobs would be eliminated, if we abandoned EAS, and charter expanded to the point where it was actually taking away major airline jobs; Example: It would be cheaper and faster to charter an aircraft to get a group of executives to a final destination, over chartering a bus to drive your executives 300 miles, to the hub, so they could hop on a major airline, and eventually fly to their final destination. Without EAS, not only would you miss out on the direct feed to the majors, more people would completely bypass the airline system to get to their final destination, both resulting in the elimination of major airline jobs in significant numbers.

I'm in the CGI and MWA area, and they both are going with Cape Air. Subject to DOT approval.

There's an allegiance to St. Louis among all these small towns, that is unfounded as far as airline service is confirmed. The local leaders live in the past glory of the Ozark and TWA hubs, not understanding the modern realities.

DEC might be too close to other airports, but UIN, TBN, CGI, and MWA, would be better off soliciting RJ service to ORD, from an AA or UA regional. Don't know if the numbers would work or not, but it would be worth a look.

St. Louis is still a goto place for hospitals and baseball, but it's days as a viable airline hub are over.

Just curious who your source is, cause my sources are saying somthing else? Just curious cause
I did see that local 12 reported that the airport board recomended going with Cape air but still subject to a county or city board vote??? Cant find any new reports of Marion Ill going with Cape air though.

Somebody who needs to travel for their job can drive the 2 hours to STL in my opinion. Maybe it's just me, but I don't even think of a 2 hour drive as a long drive. If the person is not willing to make the drive, they can live and/or work somewhere else. I still don't see how it is the responsibility of a taxpayer in Dallas to make sure that somebody in Marion has access to an airplane that flies them somewhere they could drive in 2 hours.

Yes, but when you add the cost of EAS to the cost of our illegal war in Iraq, you just increase the national debt. Just because you aren't adding as big of a chunk doesn't mean it's ok to add it...though most of Congress seems to disagree with that view.

I generally agree with your sentiments. Government subsidies for one company mean a lack of free market principles and a destruction of the ability for companies to compete for business. If these places are so lucrative/wonderful/worthwhile to live in, then the people who live there either need to learn to afford to foot the bill for their air service, learn to drive the 2 hours to the airport nearby, or decide to live in an area that suits their needs better.

As you know, we codeshare with United and Frontier. They both have a very very tiny presence in STL. AA also barely has any flights in STL. Southwest has a bunch but nobody codeshares with them. Point is, there are hardly any codeshare connections on us into STL. If we went to ORD, I think we'd have a ton more people flying.

I agree completely. I was talking to an AA/former TWA guy on the jumpseat in to STL today and I was talking about how much of a ghost town the airport is. He said TWA used to have almost 850 flights/day in STL. Now AA is decreasing the number to 38 departures per day. ORD would make so much more sense. You can't get anywhere from STL.


Again, although I disagree with EAS in principle and think it's generally unconstitutional, I can agree that there are communities out there that do greatly benefit from having EAS in their town. UIN, DEC, MWA, CGI are just too close to STL for it to be important to them in my opinion...and I think that's probably pretty evident when you look at our flight loads. No flaming needed in this thread, just some friendly discussion about the ridiculousness that is the airline industry.

I think the real issue with ORD is securing slots and the unjust cost of doing so, makes it almost impossible to do even with EAS monies

Yeah, that's what I've heard. I've heard from multiple people that ORD won't even allow turboprops to service that airport, but I doubt there's much truth to that. I would think that if we're codesharing with United, we could use some of their gates, but I have experience with that and it's ridiculous. We'd spend an insane amount of time in the penalty box.