Colgan Pilots Don't Pick Up Open Time!!!
 

To all Colgan Pilots, please don't pick up open time without draft pay. Why should you help out the company and not get paid for it when they make you sit at an airport all day with a broke aircraft and they don't pay you for that anymore. Don't make excuses and say "it fits in my schedule, I don't mind helping out the company." Make them pay you the draft pay, Colgan did this to themselves by not hiring, or upgrading for the last year. And with the flu going around let them either pay us or cancel flights. Don't pick up open time without getting the draft pay, tell everyone else!

I suggest you delete this thread ASAP. If you don't know why I suggest you do some research.............

MODS. Please delete this thread

Why can't a private citizen make a comment in a public forum. Does he not have freedom of speech and expression? He is not slandering or threatening anyone nor making false accusations. I also assume he is not an elected official of the MEC (I can see that being wrong) so his opinion is nothing more than his viewpoint on a matter (which he has the right to have).

Because you are condoning illegal job action in an open forum that can be traced back to you.

Thank you................................

I could see freedom of speech being used to defend this post. But sadly it would probably go to court and probably fail. Freedom of speech is dieing and it is our job as citizens to protect it.

Mod note:

The best course of action if one would like to report a TOS violation, is to use the report a post feature. It's the red triangle in the lower left hand corner of your screen. That will start a thread at the admin section for all the mods to see and take action, if necessary.

There is nothing illegal about NOT picking up open time..

If he's not a union official, it's not illegal for him to be saying anything like this. How do you think grassroots campaigns get started?

Best of luck to the OP.

Actually, it is. See UAL if you don't believe me.

This is a publicly viewed and available forum, NOT grassroots. Please do us all a favor and keep this stuff off the internet / email / text messages. Grassroots means IN-PERSON, discussions like this one belong in the crewrooms and cockpits.

Sounds to me like somebody needs to start an off-shore hosted & administered server for US-based pilot forums. Forums are clearly the best way for us to stay in touch and discuss our options but case law (ie UAL) has made it all but impossible to do so. I would argue this is a case where civil disobedience has merit, but the records need to stay offshore for it to work.

Ah my friend, I think it's already been talked about. The sad thing is that we could only get what... maybe 5% of all active pilots to read, let alone participate?

I find that trying to reach out to the Mesa pilots is very difficult. Either they are too lazy to become informed, or they just don't care.

Best of luck to the OP. I agree with his statements, and I think he should be allowed to post that here. If we don't start standing up for OUR RIGHT of free speech, we will lose it. Our bill of rights is slowly starting to become meaningless.

Believe me, you know how vocal I am, this has potential to really come back and haunt certain individuals. Refer to UAL a few years back and you will see what I mean.

There is a reason I don't really post on here anymore, other than the fact that I can't get my SAABaroowski name back and the fact that nobody wants to hear my tangents anymore :)

The fourm misses you. Your like the Muammar Gaddafi of the fourm. (In a funny way not theating)

And like the above mention person/gov't - if a few simple rules were followed, he (Gaddafi) might be welcomed into the civilized world community :) If Gaddafi can not follow the rules....well........ :( (especially when playing in someone's PRIVATE backyard)

USMCFLYR

Not trying to start trouble. Maybe I should have used someone else as a example, mybad.

I do wish we could speak more freely on here.

I guess the response would be get your own forum.

hmmmmm, I believe I followed the rules...........(when I did'nt I served my time) then one day poooof I can log in as SAABaroowksi, but cant view the forums??????

Either way no problem my blood pressure has been lower since visiting this place on a "reduced" schedule, haha

You could exchange PMs or personal e-mails until the cows come home if you like and discuss anything till all are blue in the face.

I'm sure that you did start your own forum, had hopes that it might come to represent a top industry forum, and laid down some basic ground rules to help acheive that goal - but then some came onto your forum and couldn't follow those rules - well.......what would be your response?

I'll tell you this. If I had children who wanted to invite their friends to come over to my house and play in the yard - they would either follow my house rules or they would be asked to leave and not come back.
It seems some others have different ideas.

No one here is getting in trouble poor pilot (so far ;))

USMCFLYR

Back the topic.....before (and if) this thread is closed down because it may/may not be an inappropriate topic for public forum discussion - - - can someone explain to me exactly what OPEN TIME is?
Is this equivalent of an instructor being unable to fly and then I pick up his flight or a pilot working *overtime* when there are pilots furloughed?

Open Time= Unassigned flying, there could be multiple reasons why flying is unassigned

Im just curious how this has anything to do w/ free speech?
The OP is making a suggestion, I dont see why that is a problem. Someone brought up a precedent of United, what happened there?

Some idiot judge who was in UAL's pocket ruled that a pilot group picking up overtime on their days off to a lesser extent than historically prevalent constituted an illegal industrial action under the RLA. UAL subpoenaed records from the ALPA forum and singled out several individuals who were then deemed the ringleaders. HUGE chilling effect on union communications, combined with the APA '98 sickout fallout.

Open time is flight time not covered by a pilot. Can be for whatever reason. Guy calls in sick today, his trip will fall into open time tomorrow till a certain time, then scheduling will assign a reserve pilot to cover it, etc.

Say a guy gets his schedule for the month, then has something happen such as injury, whatever. His trips for the month fall into open time. Again, if nobody picks them up to fly, they will get assigned to a reserve pilot within a certain time of the show time for the trip. Or, during the secondary/fallout/relief/buildup/mix/composite line construction process there was simply more flying due to transition, training, vacation, attrition (when it existed) than there were pilots to staff it.

It has to do with the second part of the statement. Which could launch and epic bazillion page thread about the specific practice.

But like Junglebus said, the UAL MEC got their a$$es handed to them for "advocating" it. If I remember correctly, so did the NWA MEC before they went on strike for something similar.

Actually it wasn't even the UAL MEC advocating it. It was a few individuals not within ALPA leadership. The UAL MEC was specifically saying DO pick up open time. The judge ruled them responsible nonetheless for providing the forum and not policing it vigorously enough (ie not gag-ruling their members).

It should be noted that significant open time, the kind that requires a lot of pilots to fly on their days off in order for the schedule to be covered, is generally the result of deliberate undermanning by management, and is quite common after "spite" furloughs like the current furloughs at CO.

Sorry, you're saying UALALPA was saying to pick up open time? What was the reason for that, to try and protect themselves from legal action?

I thought they, along with AA had a rather militant stance on the issue.

I wasn't there, but have been told by UAL pilots that their public stance was not to do anything that could be interpreted as a change to status quo (sickout, not picking up OT, etc).

Thanks for the explanation DJD.
So...to make it really simple - in the general view of things - picking up open time (especially due to understaffing) is like accepting overtime when your fellow pilots are out of work. If that is the case - I got it!

USMCFLYR

bingo!!!!!

Except Colgan does not have any pilots on furlough. The OP was simply stating that pilots at Colgan should only pick up open time if they are awarded an additional 3.45 pay per pick up.

Since we do not have anyone on furlough it should be left to the Colgan pilot to decide if the want to push for draft pay. If someone is off and offered 6 hours pay for a day trip let them decide what is best for them and their family.

Pilots on furlough....diferent story. However just not the case here.

Just going by the bold part, what a PITA that must have been for the UAL MEC. Especially if that status quo was that there were pilots picking up open time.

Thats a good point Juice. But to possibly take a tangent on the issue;

As far as negotiating the first C.B.A., it may become critical as far as how language is written that deals with the compensation/credit that is awarded for the practice. If there has been a precedent set, it can be hard to negotiate MORE than that. I know, we could go on and on about when Colgan will get a CBA, and how good it will be. In general, it's usually not a home run the first time around. But that's not the point I'm making.

That is a good point.

I do agree with this. I was just advocating earlier for the OP right to post.

If there are people on furlough, then yes NO OPEN TIME. But in this case, let each person decide for themselves. Either way, I think we should be able to say whatever we want to about this subject on a private board.

For the most part, those who need open time for the extra money will pick it up regardless.

In the real world, Open Time, would be called Overtime... and historicaly at the airlines Open Time is used as a means to keep fewer benefited employees on property.

At the beginning of the month there was some 1700 hours of open time or 22 pilots worth. Considering there are 435 pilots total, it looks to me like Colgan is 5% understaffed.

Depends on the circumstances as to wether or not that's a valid rationale. Especially if you're comparing line bidding to PBS.

PBS is arguably more efficient, causes less open time, and results in less bodies to staff the operation.

The inefficiencies of line bidding create more open time, and the requirement for more bodies.

At Eagle we have very little open time and yet we have 71 pilots still on furlough. These pilots were furloughed when there was an abundance of open time and now that its dried up, you'd think they be calling pilots back or needing more pilots to cover the flying the furloughees would supposedly be doing............they haven't and are not.

The availability of open time is not always inversely proportional to required bodies. Additionally, the philosophy of rejection of flying open time by pilots doesn't necessarily assist in the return of furloughees or produce other results hoped for when trying to prove something to management.

It hasn't in the past at Eagle anyway.

Point taken, it just depends on how the specific airline staffs. For some reason, my company takes this super complex approach to determine staffing needs. At my shop, there was a TON of open time pre furlough. The line improvement window was a feeding frenzy. Click of the mouse turns you crap non commutable weekend line into something completely to your liking. Now, there isn't crap for open time when you look in the pool during either the initial or secondary window.

True. It's been proven at my shop, it's simply cheaper to reassign/JM a pilot in the relatively few circumstances where they are actually short than it is to recall a pilot or upgrade some guys. Especially know since it's been a year for both, it would take a full long course as well as the time invested to get the meat in the seat.

If line pilots were able to anticipate a furlough, they'd have to do a myriad of things to keep as many pilots employed as possible that go beyond just picking up open time. Like maximizing vacation and picking up over it, bidding maximum monthly training conflict, as well as utilizing sick leave, etc. Also, this would have to be done so far out that it would be impossible to implement.