Sadly its not as simple as negotiating better. Time after time the expensive regional has been replaced or threatened with replacement by a cheaper operator. The whole idea of collective bargaining doesn't work when there is a sea of separate unions all scrambling to compete for scarce jobs. Its combinging the worst of unionized and non-unionized work enviroments.

The only way we as a pilot group can move forward with the future of air travel (which is contracted, code-shared flying) is to either get the RLA changed or revoked or simply give up the ghost and stop trying the same game of contract negotiation. Sadly it will be very difficult to do either but until we do we'll all be forced into being bottom-feeders eventually.

I want to post something I see as an observation from someone who is on the outside of the (regional) industry looking in. Before I begin, I do want to say something else, because my posts have been misinterpreted by more than a few.

While I did not fly for any regional airline in my previous jobs, I have had to deal with low pay, poor working conditions and very little in the area of quality of life. I mention this because I can certainly give empathy to those who do experience this. Now for my observation.

First, the landscape has changed dramatically as compared to even ten years ago. I see the regional airline industry as the "new normal" in airline structure. Yes, the majors still provide a lot of service, but who has been growing and who has been shrinking over the past decade? The regionals used to be nothing more than a stepping stone for many as they gained hours and experience to prepare them for a better job. Now, this is going to be a career for many people.

Second, many are still getting into this profession under two premises. First, many simply want to fly and do not care about the wages - i.e., their desire to fly outweighs some of the negatives. Second, many enter this profession convinced they are going to be among those who do move on to "bigger and better" things. I don't have anything against either of these two thoughts, although one must exercise caution and know beforehand what they are getting into.

And that is what leads to my beef with threads such as these. I completely understand what it means to pursue a goal with a strong desire for that goal. What I vehemently oppose is the attitude of some on this board who exercise one of "entitlement".

Nothing is guaranteed. If you have 1000 hours of PIC jet, a degree and a squeaky clean record, that does not mean that you are automatically entitled to a job at a major. That is what many (nobody in particular) on these and other message boards seem to think. As I mentioned on another thread, the playing field has never been a level one.

Many want to advance in their careers and better themselves - who wouldn't? But for those of you out there who are impatient for any reason or think you need to be somewhere else because of what you have or because of your experience, I would suggest that you will a problem not just in this industry, but in any for that matter.

Just my $0.02.

Ok, you've gotten away with bringing these idiots up 3 times now; so....Glenn Beck is the biggest loser on television, and O'reilly just cares about selling books or yelling and cussing at the people he works with

YouTube - Bill O'Reilly Flips Out

I went into the military to serve my country. I knew the pay was low and I was going into harms way.

The difference between getting low pay from a company and low pay from the military is this:

Company Boss: I got a zillion resumes, you should be happy you have a job
Military Officer: You are doing a heck of a job. I cant give you a raise, but take a Hollywood shower, take a 72 hour liberty, or at the "E" club, "the drinks are on me".

In short, what little there was, was shared. Hard work was appreciated and rewarded. My present company's stance is the beatings will continue until morale improves.

Unfortunately this has become the mantra at many companies, with only a handful not subscribing to this. The way I see it, it is one thing to have a true advantage as a manager when the supply of workers outnumbers the demand for work. It is a tragedy though when many take the "workers paradise" approach to instill morale.

So true.

Thank you, and I sincerely mean that. :)

Just to clarify so as not to be inadvertently taken out of context.

Good, bad, or otherwise, this is a simple observation on my part. The truth of the matter is that there are those who simply do not care (at this point) about low pay and/or issues with QOL standards. It neither makes an individual good nor bad for it. However, as an observer, this is something that will affect supply and demand with respect to labor, and thus does give a manager the upper hand.

I enlisted in the army when I was 19. My visions of military service and expectations were probably typical for most 19 year olds. Needless to say that after a while you learn that some of what you thought turned out to be true and some things not. You gain new knowledge with time. You mature, learn more, get broader perspectives, maybe change your mind on some things.

The same is true with flying. Most guys get into it with certain pre-conceptions, some of which turns out to be true and some not. There's a broad spectrum of preconceptions, but I think that 95% of pilots who have advanced far enough to be employable by the airlines know that their chances of getting to the majors is slim now-a-days. Ten years ago I'd say that maybe half of the pilots at regionals had expectations of going on to legacy carriers. So, in my personal experiences of having to start over as a new hire at different regionals, I'd say that there is a lot less expectation (or the feeling of "entitlement") then there used to be.

But, even so, I think that regardless of what a person's expections or reasons are for becoming an airline pilot, that person should be able to evolve and change miss-guided preconceptions. Maybe you're 22, single and just want to fly, so you don't give much consideration to pay, etc. I'll bet when that same person is a few years older, has worked a grueling schedule for a while, has a wife and kids to feed, then that person's realities change. I don't think it's fair to condemn that person's changing perspective anymore than it is to condemn the change of perspective of a raw recruit vs a seasoned combat veteran. It's natural.

All that said, I see absolutely NO reason why pilots at sub-par airlines should be sniped at for wanting to improve their situation. This talk of "You knew what you were getting into", is ridiculous. Ja, most had a fairly good idea of what they were getting into (or they should be reading APC), but the world keeps turning and people change and their needs change.

As for myself, I never had expectations or felt "entitled" to go on to the majors. I also didn't become an airline pilot for the fun of it. I did it because I had some opportunities that I made the most of, I was good at it, and I needed a job. Like many at the regionals I was pretty happy with my job for a few years. I had modest expectations that were mostly met for most of the time. I worked hard to make my airline a better place to work. I was active in my union. I rarely did any sort of whining on pilot websites.

I don't need some statistical oddity telling me to pull myself by the boot straps or shut up and be happy with serf wages.

SF3,

Good post, thank you for taking the time to put some thought into it. It is hard to say what is the "majority" and what is the "minority" views when all you have is an internet message board. I will say that with regards to what I see on the internet, your view seems to be among the minority.

Although I agree, I don't think many here are directly or indirectly sniping anyone for working at a sub-par airline. I think most understand the predicament, although some remarks are made off the cuff without thinking before speaking, but that's life on the internet. :D

To an extent. Most people do know what they are getting into and they make the best of what they have, whether the circumstances be desirable or less than desirable. However, there are a few who will say how much they love to fly at all costs and then in the same breath complain about everything from pay to upgrades to schedules. It sends a very confusing message.

My thoughts on this are to simply do the best job you can with what you have, and not to settle for the status quo. I believe the majority of people out there (in all walks of life) practice this work ethic. Where I get annoyed is the few who begin to preach socialism when things don't go their way. I'm reading between the lines here, but it seems those individuals don't want you to have something good unless they can have it too.

Nice post SF3, and nice civilized comeback LabRat. Unfortunately, some pilots did know what they were getting into, but couldn't forecast the economic crisis we are in. Example, Joe wants to work at WN. He takes a job at a sub-par airline because massive attrition will provide for a quick upgrade. Joe upgrades, then down grades, then comes the Grapes of Wrath part deaux. Now Joe can't go anywhere. Joe forgot how bad FO pay was.

Joe might get angry when people claim he knew what he was getting into. On one hand, he did. On the other, he didn't.

Lab Rat- My post followed yours, but I wasn't specifically refering to your posts. More like a in general thing. If the "statistical oddity" part applied to anybody it's that UPS guy who has been posting so much anti-Moore stuff.

I think you're reading too much between the lines that isn't there. At least for me. I used to work for the GOP before my pilot days. I rubbed shoulders with those who rubbed shoulders with Bush. These days I think of myself as more of an Independent than a Republican, but not a Socialist. But, as others have pointed out, I don't think that Socialism is a dirty word either. There are some very nice "Socialist" countries.

Bottom line... I don't mind if people argue about facts, merits, etc. but it really peeves me when some people have nothing to add other than throwing the socialist moniker around like that's a basis for discussion. Or calling Moore a "d-bag", etc. Politics and over-simplified ideology really dumb down these threads. Maybe it's just me. I've never been into ideology. We're all in the same profession and should stick together on this. Or, at the very least, argue about the facts of Moore's movie and not divisive ideology. Why quibble over a word?

Perhaps there are some truths in the movie, but that doesn't negate the fact that Moore is a d-bag.

Politics will always be a tug of war between conflicting sides. The problem is that most folks lack a basic understanding of the macro system and what causes the current system (flawed as it is) to operate. Too many people are voting on feelings and looks and ability to give a smooth sounding speech (regardless of content).

so you guys would be ok with those nut jobs probably saying the same thing michael moore said?!?! seems if someone makes a good point and publicizes something you believe in you should probably support them; not hope that someone else you like says the same thing....

Hi!

Congress may help us get the pay up. The House is "soon" (don't know what that means) to vote on the bill re: crew rest, pilot records, a bunch of other stuff, and making the ATP a minimum for a -121 new hire. If it passes (and I am hopeful-just wrote to my rep), then even Mesa will have to hire a guy who has at least 1500 hours TT. I do not see how that will NOT increase the pay!

cliff
NBO

Aw Rats!!!! I'm kind of odd to begin with, "statistical" actually made me feel like someone. :D:D

Same here. I'm very conservative but I am an Independent. Sometimes the GOP represents my views, but other times they don't. I don't want to be tied to a party because sometimes the party line changes.

about 25 years. :)

You're kidding me right??? I chose this career when it held the promise of a good salary, good time off, manageable schedules, and a strong retirement. I spent every day from my first flight at age 16 working to get to the place I am today; spending countless hours working and studying, and close to $100k of my own money making it happen. Even when I started getting paid for it, I survived for years on pathetic salaries and 6 person apartments. I get here years later and lose more than half my pay (including the bump) and most of my retirement, work 30% more, and get bumped off jumpseats by RJ drivers on routes that used to have 757's and 767's on it? Almost every F/O I fly with is/has been furloughed, and you want me to stop complaining??

Go get another job? You want me to start over doing something different? I trained for this my entire adult life. You want me to spend another 25 years honing skills to be doing something else so that I can get it figured out when I'm 70?

I haven't earned much in this industry, but I've DARNED WELL earned the right to complain about what has been done to us.

You sound just like Glenn Tilton; not something I'd be proud of.

I hope everyone understands that the public CAN NOT do anything to raise our wages, its up to us.

But here some of our peers are flying 190s for SUCH A HIGH RATE OF PAY, look in the mirror guys.....

And you're the reason the industry sucks. Just because we love flying and would like to see better wages for a job that we enjoy and are passionate about doesn't mean we're complaining.

You sound like that RAA doush bag or the CEO of some crap airline that operates for someone who operates for someone that operates for a real airline. The type of guy who takes home 6 figures while driving slaves who are just trying to make a living in their chosen field.

What we do need for our profession to come back is for our mainline friends to lock up scope. If it's a US flight, it needs to be US pilots. Get rid of the regionals all together, and stop the whipsawing. I would rather be a furloughed Airways guy with a name on their seniority list that still sitting at a regional hoping they start to hire again.
Mainline guys, Do everything you can to get back your flying. If it's a 1900 you should be flying it. Start by getting the pay for those aircraft in you contract.

unfortunately i feel that the ship has sailed on mainline flying these aircraft.

we need to come up with a strategy moving forward that accounts for that reality. the solution is out there, mgmt and their dirty tactics have just been a step ahead of labor for at least the last decade. the unions have absolutely no direction. they don't even know where to start right now, as they are spinning their heads fighting eachother over integration issues (AW/US, DL/NW, now the REP debacly) and fighting huge battles over grievances and all the other crazy $hit mgmt comes up with.

it's a lack of leadership from the top down.

atpcliff- I agree. Raising standards to a 1500 hour ATP requirement would eventually have a beneficial effect for us as far as supply and demand goes (not to mention it couldn't hurt safety). I think it's a more realistic fix for our profession than an overhaul of the Railroad Labor Act. At least for the short term.

And, it's supply and demand. A good Capitalistic fix! (for those worried about "Socialism")

Other professions pretty much control the standards for entering that profession. Lawyers require law degrees, bar exams, etc. Doctors have the same sort of thing. The people in that profession have a great deal of control on the requirements of entry. I think if pilots had that sort of control, and could set the bar higher, it would be reflected in our wages and quality of life.

It sounds like Congress is going to water the 1500 hour requirement down, however.

I believe his point is just to state that everything comes down to personal responsibility. If you had a old junked up car that just kept breaking down and could only get you to your destination 50% of the time, you'd likely look into getting a new vehicle. Unless of course you just LOVED that particular car and were dead set on nursing it back to health.

There are plenty of pilots with each of these viewpoints.

For those who view this profession as a means to an end and not the end itself will most likely find greater happiness in other arenas.

It is noble to fight the good fight for the benefit of the profession. However others will just look at the state of affairs that by all accounts is worsening and make the personal decision to no longer be involved. After all, we only get so many days before the bucket needs to be kicked. Too many years hoping for something to happen could be the ultimate gamble.

For the others, the job is the end. They get to fly. Unfortunately, this "die hard" attitude will likely lead to accepting worse wages. If managements know you'll work despite most adverse conditions, they'll milk it for all its worth. In this regard, it is the folks who are genuinely willing to hang their hat that pose the greatest risk for management.

Oh Irish, you did NOT just say that!!! lol... I used to like you, but now... I'm not so sure! lol

All the American public thinks about is the lowest fare.

Supply and demand has created the current hub-and-spoke system, and it also demands the lowest fare.

Just because you think that you are a "professional pilot" doesn't mean the American public gives a hoot. All they want is to save 1 cent on a postage stamp.

The funny thing is that they charge all of this to a damn visa card-- "just for the points."

Now, that being said-- I don't have credit cards and I feel that I should make much more than I do. But, as (what I consider to be) an intelligent man, can you really argue with basic principles of economics?

Tell Your Story
 

Hello Pilots: I'm a NYC freelance writer who's been hired to write a piece for a pilot magazine on the issues of poor pilot pay and how that is effecting the professional and personal lives of new and seasoned pilots. Names will be changed so that you can tell your story without worrying about repercussions. I'm looking to talk to pilots who've been in the business for years, pilots who are just starting out, and pilots who are considering getting out. We want to tell the truth about the severity of this situation, and also begin a conversation that could, perhaps, impact change within the industry, as well as within the general public. If you have a story that you'd like to share, or ideas about how to most effectively address the issues of poor pay, fatigue and safety, please contact me at [email protected]. Put "Pilot" in the subject line. Many thanks ... I look forward to hearing from you!