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Pilot Pay
Sunday, October 11th, 2009
Pilots on Food Stamps By Michael Moore We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder. "I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating. "The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl. "Did I do something wrong?" "No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.") The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else. "Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket." He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza. I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker. "I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy. I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie. "I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said. "No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie." And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer. Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks. |
Well I can't stand Michael Moore, but I like this. Maybe he'll do more with it. Good for the pilots for showing him that.
Now if we can just get Glenn Beck involved! Now THAT would be something I'm on board with! :D |
Mod note:
Let's see if we can keep this thread on the track of pilot pay and not degenerate into a partisan political discussion. Please remember the TOS against political discussions. USMCFLYR |
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
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This is in cargo because?
How is this:
I wonder how much the pilots for Air Cuba make and if they would like to trade places with anyone in Mr. Moore's movie? |
Wow. That's an intelligent thing to say....
I'm not a Michael Moore fan either, but if this is in his new movie I can't argue with it. Looks like he might've gotten something right, even if it's by accident. |
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
He spent so many hours in the Alert Shack when he was on the B-52...shame on you regional guys for not doing the same:rolleyes:. |
Maybe Mr Moore should interview an Aeroflot crew sleeping in the back of their cool AH-124, or talk to them about when they are lucky enough to get a hotel sleeping 4 in a hotel room that would have one American crewmember sleeping in it.
Or maybe Mr Moore would be interested in them buying as much as they can in Europe (you should see how much "personal" stuff they bring back into the aircraft) to sell in their Socialist country for profit (wait that sounds like Capitalism). Oh sorry I'm getting on my soap box. What a Douche Bag. |
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
I hate posts like this. They are written by people who thumb their nose because they have a better situation; be it financially or career wise. They over simplify the process of "quit and get a job that pays what you're worth." Is it really that easy? If you are in a situation that you dont like, the best idea is to just bail and not try to improve conditions? Im pleased they dont put ejection seats in your airliner, otherwise the first fault you get, im sure you would peace out and pull the chute. |
Originally Posted by captexpress
(Post 692772)
Sunday, October 11th, 2009
Pilots on Food Stamps By Michael Moore We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder. "I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating. "The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl. "Did I do something wrong?" "No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.") The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else. "Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket." He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza. I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker. "I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy. I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie. "I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said. "No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie." And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer. Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks. |
Originally Posted by TurboDog
(Post 692800)
Are you 50 years old, or older?
Those that chose to go to a regional knew what they werre gettting into. If they didnt, shame on them for not doing any research. Is this a political correct statement...... NO, AND I DONT CARE. JUST TIRED OF ALL THE WHINNING AND COMPLAINING I HEAR. |
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692813)
NO, AND I DONT CARE. JUST TIRED OF ALL THE WHINNING AND COMPLAINING I HEAR.
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692813)
No I'm not. Just tired of hearing and reading "I have a college degree and I make less than $ XXX a year. I should be paid more".
Those that chose to go to a regional knew what they werre gettting into. If they didnt, shame on them for not doing any research. Is this a political correct statement...... NO, AND I DONT CARE. JUST TIRED OF ALL THE WHINNING AND COMPLAINING I HEAR. |
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692813)
No I'm not. Just tired of hearing and reading "I have a college degree and I make less than $ XXX a year. I should be paid more".
Those that chose to go to a regional knew what they werre gettting into. If they didnt, shame on them for not doing any research. Is this a political correct statement...... NO, AND I DONT CARE. JUST TIRED OF ALL THE WHINNING AND COMPLAINING I HEAR. |
Originally Posted by IrishTiger
(Post 692778)
Well I can't stand Michael Moore, but I like this. Maybe he'll do more with it. Good for the pilots for showing him that.
Now if we can just get Glenn Beck involved! Now THAT would be something I'm on board with! :D |
I'm glad that he is drawing attention to pilot pay but I'm also glad that he is shedding light on how the banking industry works.
People preach Capitalism but what we have done is Socialized the risk with institutions that are too big to fail. When Wall Street does this I guess that it's ok, because it's Capitalism? We gave the banks over 700 billion dollars and nobody was accountable for what happened to it. Some measure the cost at close to 4 trillion dollars. I am all for Capitalism but I am not for the corruptness that has been going far too long and I am glad for anyone that tries to point it out. Pilots chose to work for low wages. Low wages are there for many reasons but they do need to come up, is there any disagreement in that? Pilots don't think they will get stuck at any wage while they are moving up the ladder. The music stopped and now everyone is upset at the level of wage they are working at. Why did the music stop? Because the banks that get a free ride levered up and loaned to everyone with a heartbeat. Wallstreet became a casino and was levered up 30:1 and as much as 60:1 and then crashed and took everything down with them. This is a credit driven recession. It's going to take some time to get out but the anger should be directed at our banking industry and it's relationship with our government. Michael Moore pointed that out. I already knew that but if you don't I suggest you go see the movie as a starting point. If the movie draws plight to our cause for higher pay then so be it. Maybe people will start buying tickets on something other than the absolute lowest cost. |
point made, thanks mods
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
However, it is getting increasingly difficult to make it in this career. Despite the ideals that people wish for - well rested pilots, ultra trained, ultra experienced, large airplanes for every flight, brand new equipment, etc, when it comes to paying up the money for these things, from a mass scale viewpoint, it will NEVER happen. Couple that with that fact that there are just too many players in the game, none with significant market share, the competition among airlines prevents any attempt at raising prices. Colluding is illegal, so that won't work either. If another 9/11 happens in the future, the security rules will get even tighter, making that trip to work even more painful - despite the stripes on your shoulders and the requisite background check. Those who stick around even when all indications continue to show decreased working conditions and greater strife within the industry have either made the decision to ride it out despite anything else, are merely hoping for a miracle (which will likely not happen), or are just turning the other way. The next group of airline pilots are in the flight schools now, longing to get out of the 172 and into your seat for crap pay and ultimate responsibility. The difference between them and you is that they've only seen the shiny brochures pushed at them by profit seeking flight schools. |
I agree that people know what they're getting into. I disagree that that precludes them from being able to complain about and change their workplace. A little study into Airline flying in the 1930s and 40s should help illustrate this point.
Likewise, there are doctors fresh out of Med School making Regional wages...they also have the right to complain. There are certain industries where individuals leaving over low pay makes no dent in how things are done, and we're in one of those industries...group action is the way. |
A med doctor can at least look forward to having a more or less guaranteed career path. Less money now for more later.
A pilot will be thrown on the street many times, will have to start over at first year pay several times perhaps, etc. There should be a premium for this treatment. |
Originally Posted by Tinpusher007
(Post 692829)
How about O'Reilly..forget Beck or Hannity for that matter!
If you all could only see my dashboard obama (courtesy of Glenn) I put on the airplane dash. haha. It's wonderful. |
Originally Posted by Luckydawg
(Post 692855)
I'm glad that he is drawing attention to pilot pay but I'm also glad that he is shedding light on how the banking industry works.
People preach Capitalism but what we have done is Socialized the risk with institutions that are too big to fail. When Wall Street does this I guess that it's ok, because it's Capitalism? We gave the banks over 700 billion dollars and nobody was accountable for what happened to it. Some measure the cost at close to 4 trillion dollars. I am all for Capitalism but I am not for the corruptness that has been going far too long and I am glad for anyone that tries to point it out. Pilots chose to work for low wages. Low wages are there for many reasons but they do need to come up, is there any disagreement in that? Pilots don't think they will get stuck at any wage while they are moving up the ladder. The music stopped and now everyone is upset at the level of wage they are working at. Why did the music stop? Because the banks that get a free ride levered up and loaned to everyone with a heartbeat. Wallstreet became a casino and was levered up 30:1 and as much as 60:1 and then crashed and took everything down with them. This is a credit driven recession. It's going to take some time to get out but the anger should be directed at our banking industry and it's relationship with our government. Michael Moore pointed that out. I already knew that but if you don't I suggest you go see the movie as a starting point. If the movie draws plight to our cause for higher pay then so be it. Maybe people will start buying tickets on something other than the absolute lowest cost. So are the people Moore wants elected more likely or less likely to regulate the banks and take the capitalism out of wall street? Capitalism isn't the problem creeping socialism is. Just to keep it on track; fix that, the economy works, and pilot pay goes up. |
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
(Post 692963)
So are the people Moore wants elected more likely or less likely to regulate the banks and take the capitalism out of wall street? Capitalism isn't the problem creeping socialism.
I would like to keep our banks regulated for OUR protection but yet keep the Capitalism in Wall Street. We've socialized the banking risk. They get all of the reward and when $hit hits the fan, they socialize the risk and you and I pay for it through taxes or inflation. This happens time and time again and I for one am sick of it. The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was put in place to keep us from a credit driven recession (depression) and it was removed along with many other banking regulations to get us to this position we are in today. We can't print our way out of this mess. The garbage in the basement (collateral debt obligations and mortgage back securities) is what we are all paying for. All sold as AAA. I'm not calling for a change from capitalism to socialism and I don't think Moore is either. I just want the looting and corruptness to stop. He merely points out some of this in his film. Back on topic, Moore and others should bring up the looting in our industry as well where the whipsaw between regional/mainline, regional/affiliate, big jet vs little jet, bankruptcies held over our heads, abrogate contracts in bankruptcies while paying bonuses to management, etc, that have been driving down wages for decades. Like him or not at least he gets some truth out there. He embellishes sometimes but so does Hollywood, CNN and Fox. |
Originally Posted by Luckydawg
(Post 692979)
I would like to keep our banks regulated for OUR protection but yet keep the Capitalism in Wall Street.
We've socialized the banking risk. They get all of the reward and when $hit hits the fan, they socialize the risk and you and I pay for it through taxes or inflation. This happens time and time again and I for one am sick of it. The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was put in place to keep us from a credit driven recession (depression) and it was removed along with many other banking regulations to get us to this position we are in today. We can't print our way out of this mess. The garbage in the basement (collateral debt obligations and mortgage back securities) is what we are all paying for. All sold as AAA. I'm not calling for a change from capitalism to socialism and I don't think Moore is either. I just want the looting and corruptness to stop. He merely points out some of this in his film. Back on topic, Moore and others should bring up the looting in our industry as well where the whipsaw between regional/mainline, regional/affiliate, big jet vs little jet, bankruptcies held over our heads, abrogate contracts in bankruptcies while paying bonuses to management, etc, that have been driving down wages for decades. Like him or not at least he gets some truth out there. He embellishes sometimes but so does Hollywood, CNN and Fox. You obviously have not read anything Moore has ever written if you don't think Moore wants socialism. |
Did you watch the movie?
Gun control, abortion, health care, socialism vs capitalism, right/left, conservative/liberal Anything else to keep you from looking at the big picture? You've just been bamboozled out of close to 4 trillion dollars and your stuck on debating whether or not Michael Moore is a socialist. He is after all making millions of dollars in a Capitalist system! And....... pilots are grossly underpaid for what they do and he pointed it out! Thanks for getting the message out MM, ALPO sure wasn't getting it! |
Originally Posted by Luckydawg
(Post 693001)
Did you watch the movie?
Gun control, abortion, health care, socialism vs capitalism, right/left, conservative/liberal Anything else to keep you from looking at the big picture? You've just been bamboozled out of close to 4 trillion dollars and your stuck on debating whether or not Michael Moore is a socialist. He is after all making millions of dollars in a Capitalist system! And....... pilots are grossly underpaid for what they do and he pointed it out! Thanks for getting the message out MM, ALPO sure wasn't getting it! |
Originally Posted by WIFlyer
(Post 692825)
Apply that logical to the flying public then. They don't want to pay more than $100 per person to take their whole wife beater wearing, non showering, don't know their a$$ from a hole in ground family from southern Florida to Seattle.
Let's leave Seattle out of it. :) |
Originally Posted by waflyboy
(Post 693010)
Whoa, whoa, there big feller.
Let's leave Seattle out of it. :) I think you mean NORTHERN florida. |
Just remember your contracts were signed by at least 50% +1 at all of your airlines. The first thing to do is stop signing POS contracts. The enemy is us more than anyone else.
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692813)
Is this a political correct statement...... NO, AND I DONT CARE. JUST TIRED OF ALL THE WHINNING AND COMPLAINING I HEAR.
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
...no one put a gun to your head and told you...
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52
(Post 692783)
You dont like the pay....... Quit and get a different job that pays you what you believe you're worth. Dont want to quit because you love flying and being an airline pilot....... Stop complaining..... You chose that career and no one put a gun to your head and told you to be a regional pilot.
/thread You can whine about the pay, your whole career, or actually do something about it. Management certainly doesn't care what you get paid, passengers don't care, the public at large doesn't care. Your coworkers don't even care. So learn to like the wage, or leave. |
Michael Moore is a "socialist" because he wants us to get better wages, manufacturing jobs back in the US, the middle class to be restored and a practical end to the "robber barons" by re-regulation?
Pilots need to get a better grip of their own destinies by holding their local MECs, and ALPA's feet to the fire. Moore's documentary points out the situation with our wages, and it's time to perhaps cowboy up to the Union leadership, whether or not we like Michael Moore... maybe the race to the bottom should end. Isn't it time to get on our local representatives/Senators to get rid of the RLA and let us be like every other Union Employee in the USA? I think so. How do we get that going? |
i think even the continental ceo was in favor of re-regulation for the industry
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The reason people signed on for crap pay in the regionals is they thought it would be temporary. Now, we realize that a regional FO is a career position. This needs to be stated again and again. Maybe ALPA should advertise this in mags to counter the BS from the pilot mills, potentially lessening the supply of new pilots.
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Originally Posted by dozer
(Post 693245)
The reason people signed on for crap pay in the regionals is they thought it would be temporary. Now, we realize that a regional FO is a career position. This needs to be stated again and again. Maybe ALPA should advertise this in mags to counter the BS from the pilot mills, potentially lessening the supply of new pilots.
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Originally Posted by FDXLAG
(Post 692963)
So are the people Moore wants elected more likely or less likely to regulate the banks and take the capitalism out of wall street? Capitalism isn't the problem creeping socialism is.
Just to keep it on track; fix that, the economy works, and pilot pay goes up. |
Originally Posted by jayray
(Post 693052)
Oh come on now. Just because you fly the big metal for the big bucks. Let us complain.
Dawg hows the family? |
To those who want to be paid more...
You are only worth what you can negotiate into your CBA. If pilots want higher pay, put it in writing. Go to LEC and MEC meetings, vote for negotiators that understand that pay is what you want, don't vote for any TA that doesn't have a pay raise, and strike if needed! We don't need to deal with it or get out of the job. We need to unite and take back our industry. Complaining on internet forums and even getting the sympathy of Michael Moore won't help our case. We are the only ones who can change our future. Stop being the apathetic pilot and blaming every one else for our situation. Take some responsibility and get involved! |
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