9E Jumpseat
 

In the last 6 months I have been denied the jumpseat on 9E about 12 times due to lack of ballast. Each time 200-230 lbs. of ballast was needed to accommodate my jumpseat request. I have tried everything from arriving at the gate over an hour early and have the gate agent notify ops. to literally tracking down the Captain an hour early to notify them of my presence and request. I have been very polite but the frustration is mounting. I depend on 9E to get to work and have had to drive about 10 times due to this. The cost of driving is mounting not to mention the time. I realize that commuting is a choice but it seems as if the pilot's have no control over their own jumpseat. I have heard stories of CA's demanding ballast but to this point my experience has been nothing less than indifference. Can some of you guys help me out on the holdup? I can certainly understand if their is a weight restriction but this has not been the case. It has simply been a balance issue and the available jumpseat has flown on home without me in it.

Thanks,

UA

This has been a huge issue lately and is being discussed on our internal website.

The main problem is, thanks to Delta consolidating most of their ground handling under "Delta Regional Elite", the SOP of this outsourced company does not allow them to load ballast on Pinnacle flights. All CRJ-200's face the same issue with the need for ballast on full flights, unfortunately Delta doesn't really care if you miss your commute and Pinnacle is powerless to do much about it. The most the crew can do at these affected stations is notify dispatch, who then comes up with a min cargo number. Also the gate agent and FA can be extra vigilant about making sure as many bags as possible get gate checked.

The mission of the ALPA Jumpseat Committee is to ensure that: (1) Pilot-in-Command control over flight deck access and use of the jumpseat is not abrogated or undermined in any manner or under any circumstances, (2) flight deck jumpseats are made available to all individuals authorized to use them, in accordance with PIC approval and federal requirements, and (3) appropriate procedures, equipment, and training are used to protect the safety and security of the flight deck and jumpseat.


The CA has the power of the parking brake. Who is 9E's jumpseat chairman?

Where do you commute from?

1) Have the CAPTAIN, not the gate agent, find out if there is ballast and what the min cargo number is.

2) You don't fly for AA do you??? I believe we now take unlimited AA j/s riders, but we didn't for a while since their management still restricts us to 1 D3 j/s rider--even in the back--they are supposedly changing it so we now allow unlimited AA riders as a gesture of cooperation.

3) What route (or at least the general distance of that route if you don't mind me asking). Makes a huge difference. I'm assuming it's INBOUND to a NWA hub, right?

4) Who does the ground handling at the station/hub where you are getting denied.

I'll look into it for you....PM me if you want to be discrete...

This thread should actually be called mesaba declares jumpseat war with pinnacle. (No not the pilots). Mesaba management has informed all their ground personnel in dtw to not load ballast on pinnacle flights. It is now against their procedures. I know it is frustrating for your commute but the pinnacle pilots are helpless in this one. We could tell themwe aren't leaving till we get ballast and the will just sit there and watch you. Ballast will never be loaded. The mesaba people in dtw are the worst in yhe System if it requires any extra effort to get something done it will not happen. Shoot just getting them to leave the breakroom to park you is hard enough.

But it isn't Mesaba ground now is it? Isn't it all Regional Elite?

Same crappy service, different name.

1. I have asked the CA several times and with plenty of notice. Generally they find out the min. number (which I know is never going to be what we have) and then when the time to close up comes it is just some shoulder shrugging and see you later because there is never enough. I can only think of 2 occasions when it worked out in the last 2 years.

2. Not AA...

3. It is a short route. Less than 250 miles. The problem is always out of MEM. I have never had the problem coming into MEM because I usually always get a seat or if it looks full I drive pre-emptively because the JS is so unreliable. LET ME REITERATE THAT THIS IS ALWAYS A BALAST ISSUE. IF THERE IS WX AND I KNOW THERE WILL BE AN ALTERNATE AND OVERWEIGHT ISSUES WILL BE HAPPENING I DON'T EVEN TRY. EVERY TIME IT IS THE CARGO NUMBER THAT BECOMES THE PROBLEM AND A LACK OF BALAST. I don't know if that is what you meant by the length of the route but maybe it is because there isn't a whole lot of fuel on board.

4. Whoever handles the ramp in MEM. I was under the impression that it was 9E that handled the ramp in MEM.

Thanks for looking into it. The 9E guys have always been nice but I have never had the sense they really cared whether I got on or not. Certainly I can say with confidence that no one has ever made any special effort to help me out. Never rude but never too helpful and since the JS is a privilege I just write down the flight number and details then walk away and out to my car for the 3.5-4 hour drive home. I usually always report it to our jumpseat chairman but there is not much he can do other than report it to yours I suppose.


UA

I have never had problems getting ballast in MEM. Heck, most of the gates have plenty of Mesa and Skywest sandbags laying around. Something weird about this post, it just doesn't make sense. Most 9E pilots will bend over to get a jumpseater onboard, myself included.

Everything I have said is 100% true. Feel free to PM me your info and I will email you from my personal account with all details. Including dates and flight numbers.

Wouldn't be surprised if it's SENIOR Memphis 9E Captains who live in base who are being extremely indifferent to your situation.

Great job, senior Pinnacle guys! :rolleyes:

wow. grow up.

I feel your pain....

A lot of times it might be 9E Dispatch tankering fuel, i.e. having the fueler fill up the tanks to save $$ on fuel at the outstation. Apparently, our dispatch awards gift cards to restaurants for the dispatcher who tankers the most fuel in a given month (from a good friend who works as a dispatcher).

When this happens, or if there is an alternate at the outstation, MEM ops classifies it as a "balance critical" or "weight critical" flight and good luck trying to get and fill out a jumpseat form from the agent. I know that as a 9E FO based in MEM trying to commute home a lot of times this frustrates me more than anything. Anytime MEM ops sees or hears those two words, the gate agents play CA and will deny the jumpseat, and normally with me, will always lead me into a heated discussion with the agent about whether or not I can list for or even fill out a form for the jumpseat or if I can talk to the CA about it.

Like someone else said, this is an huge issue @9E, but also like someone else said, most 9E CA's are good guys will help me out.

For the gazillionth time folks....

Please post airline names and NOT their codes, unless it is obvious... for us ignorant pilots who don't keep track 24/7 of airline codes. I figured it out thanks to the replies above. I mean, how does Pinnacle come up with 9E, anyways? How about PCL, wow that must be too obvious?

Thanks!

Hey your username starts with AA...of course we all know what AA means, but most of the people in this thread know what 9E means as well...

I'm not a commuter anymore but to weight in on this issue... I would NEVER EVER EVER count on a pinnacle jumpseat unless you just LIKE being left behind. I don't know if it's the pilots (I really hope it isn't) but when I was commuting, if they were close to full... you were screwed. I used to fly the 200 for a different company and barring a really long leg or alternate fuel we ALWAYS got the jumpseaters on, actually sometimes even fuel numbers were reworked to make it possible. It's definately a balance issue, anyone who's worked a balance problem on a 200 pretty much knows the nose heavy issue.... at my previous company we had 50 lb sandbags or comat... I hear at comair they went one further and put a 200 lb plate in the back of all their 200's either way... if it says operated by 9E... I hope you have a backup (No offense to 9E pilots... just the truth of the matter)

I beg to differ... and how hard is it to type in the airline name, really?

typing in the name takes about as long as researching the abbreviation. Researching the airline code takes less time than making a post complaining about abbreviations. I mean really do we not have better things to complain about?

way to stay classy there RB..........divide and conquer? Good luck being a rep with that attitude.

O.K. I want to state that I was paroled from 9E in early '08, but in my almost 8 years there it was a constant battle. Many factors contribute, but here are the biggies as I remember them.
1) NWA bean counters figured that the W/B issues would not justify having the weight installed in the tail cone and carrying an extra 50lbs for the life of the aircraft thus PCL RJ's have always had W/B issues. When pax weights were raised it really added to the problem.
2) Dispatchers are completely overworked and reluctant to spend any extra time on a flight no matter what the problem is.
3) Lots of short flights to business type destinations where most of the A/C pax are going out in the morning and returning in the evening and checking no bags. No bags in back make an almost impossible balance problem on short flights. MSP-STL used to be the worst for me and trying to get STL NWA employees find ballast for a PCL jumpseater was an exercise in futility.
4) PCL does very little of there of there own servicing at the gate or on the ramp. I am not sure if this is still the case, but getting people to just do their job was a constant battle, much less going above and beyond to help a jumpseater. You state the problem was in MEM which used to be better than the rest of the system, but that must no longer be the case.
5) I fought this battle daily for many years and did everything I could to get EVERY jumpseater a ride, and was usually sucessful, but on some days you simply cannot make it happen. I was also called in to the base mgrs office to be threatened about delaying flights for non-revs. I kept doing it anyway, but it still was unpleasant. When I was there MOST CA's would bend over backwards to accomadate a jumpseater, sticking their neck out in the process, but the deck was always stacked against them. Just remember MOST pilots are trying to help and not just ignoring you.

Pinnacle..... typed in 1.5 seconds.

Search 9E.... still searching........ nope sorry. Quicker to type the airline name.

This is well worth complaining!

Actually when I open my browser to yahoo, type 9e nothing else... the first result is wiki Pinnacle Airlines... I'm still trying to figure out why you bother to hijack a thread to complain about something that probably doesn't affect you... seriously give me an airline code and less than 30 seconds later I'll tell you what it is and know in the future...

If I'm not mistaken, 9E has been the code since the airline was originally Express I Airlines.

all i can say is please don't take your frustrations out on Pinnacle pilots when they are trying to J/S on your airline. The pilots have no control over this, and I know almost every Captain I fly with will do almost anything to get the J/S on. I hope it is addressed by management soon, but please understand its nothing personal on the pilots end.

...still quicker just to type the actual airline name, just a courtesy for those of us who don't know.

:D I figured I'd get a couple of good replies out of y'all. Didn't want to leave the other anon out in the dark.

And don't worry, it's hard enough getting elected when the participating in base is 45/220....

PS - who reads, and takes APC seriously, anyways?

Here's what happened to me yesterday. 9E flight from MEM to BNA..200 miles. Introduced myself to Capt when he came up to counter. Weather was clear everywhere. Five minutes prior to boarding gate agent announces flight is weight restricted. Flight left with two empty seats, me and a paying passenger. Later flight was going to be the same, so I ended up renting a car and driving. Didn't see the Captain again, but he could have told me the flight was weight restricted at the counter. Yes you 9E guys are still welcome on my airplane, and I've had quite a few lately. But the first one is going to get an earfull.

Nice bashing of a pilot group over your free ride. Has even one instance been the result of the Captain declaring "Sorry...no jumpseaters today!" What are we really talking about here? The system or the pilots fault?

Most jumpseaters can't get past the gate agent, yet it the pilot's fault (let not start up on this subject again). If you think the Captain is legitimately conspiring against you, contact your jumpseat chairman. I believe its the SYSTEM: Agents, Load Planning, and Ramp combining as a superpower to overwhelm the process, making it a PAIN IN THE ARSE to get anything done. This is a common problem everywhere.

What CRJ2 operator hasn't had balance issues or weight restrictions? Please. Why Pinnacle do we bash? Pinnacle's pilots have been overly generous with their seats.

Oh, and I've carried more FedEx pilots than my own guys or even taken rides myself on FedEx. And, the last time I tried J/S on Fred's 727, the slide broke so "oooops sorry fella can't take ya" was what I heard. Either way I was walking. Besides, when did we come to EXPECT anything anyway?

Whose bashing? Maybe you. I'm just saying it's bull that on a severe clear day a 200 mile trip is going to tanker so much gas as to leave a paying customer (and a jumpseater) over what amounts to 500 lbs of gas. Also, if it had been me and I had just looked at the paperwork, as this guy had, I would have mentioned that the flight is close to full and because of tankering fuel it might not be possible to carry a jumpseater. As for me, I've kept jumpseaters on my plane by working with our operation folks to adjusting fuel burn and taxi out fuel and cruise altitude. I jumpseat offline about twice a year and I've carried way more Pinnacle guys than all the jumpseats I will ever take and I'm happy to take them. Except for the one guy I didn't like, so I broke the slide. So Skippy, have a beer, relax and don't get so upset. No one is bashing you . Like you, I'm bashing your system.

ha ha thats funny!:D

If this is true and there was no alternate required, then the capt needs to grow a pair and tell dispatch that they need to reduce their tankering amt. You can fly a 200 full plus a jumpseater pretty much all day long as long as you don't have an alternate.

Ok so lets start here. Yes the captain should have done a bit more. Maybe he was burned out with having to fight gate agents and the company on his last day about getting everyone on board. I actually am sorry you had to drive.

Here is the second part. After YEARS of carrying fedex guys around with NO reciprocal agreement, you are going to give one of our guys an ear full because you drew the short straw with the captain that day? Seriously? I know that it wasn't your guys fault we couldn't ride but I kinda miss all the chili's gift cards and the bags of goodies you all used to bring to us out of guilt. I however never ride on fedex. Never. No need to since I don't commute and my family cant ride on them. I have however transported hundreds of fedex guys all over creation to get them to MEM. And sometimes I have had to go above and beyond to get them on board (because thats what you should do). I just think its a little to much to give the next 9e guy on your plane an earful for something he has no idea about or control over.

Sorry to set you off too...man you guys are touchy. First of all, thanks for all you do for us FedEx guys and your correct I should have said "give the next guy and earful" in a better way and I apologize. I should have said " I gotta ask the next guy, How in the heck can you be weight restricted on a clear day on a 200 mile trip and leave a paying customer and my whiny butt too?" All kidding aside I appreciate the job you guys do, and I have the utmost respect for each of you. Also for the record, I didn't actually break the slide so the other guy couldn't ride my jumpseat.....I made my first officer do it. :eek:

No problem. The only thing that bugged me about what you said is giving the next 9e guy an earful. I just took that as you giving the guy a hard time when he comes begging for a ride. Just a misunderstanding then.
I do agree with you though that the captain should have been more alert or at least man enough (or woman) to tell you what the deal was instead of just disappearing. Once again I am sorry that you got left and when I make the next trip to BNA you wont be left behind if I can do anything about it.

On a side note we can now use the delta sand bags in DTW so that should help a lot of guys up there.

If anything I'd say 9E guys go waaayyyyy out of their way for FedEx guys--at least in Memphis. Re: there are tons of MEM captains for whom FedEx is the only job they'll ever leave this place for, and many many children of FedEx pilots on the line at 9E as well, not to mention people like me who absolutely love having you guys as a commuting option...I'd also venture to say that 98% of the people in ops/dispatch/training/executive ranks here are either a) trying to go to FedEx one day, b) worked at FedEx for most of their working life, or c) are married to or related to a FedEx pilot or Express employee of some sort...when you throw in girlfriends, friends, and golf buddies, well, you get the picture--it is the very rare occasion that a 9E pilot or employee would not do anything legally possible to get a FedEx guy on that seat...

Just to clear the air a bit FLYBYNITE, I was not addressing you per se, but this entire thread of ingratitude. Anyone reading this would think that Pinnacle pilots are a bunch of inconsiderate bastiges, as nothing could be farther from the truth. What concerns me is a perception by others that the average Pinnacle pilot doesn’t care or isn’t concerned that a jumpseater gets on or not.

Worth noting is that the pilots have likely become anesthetized by the past, current, and continued operational challenges from the CRJ platform and managerial assaults. To tanker fuel and deny cargo or ANY passengers (i.e. to knowingly place the aircraft in a ‘weight critical’ situation) is erroneous at best. This problem is very difficult to correct once any over-fuel is loaded because de-fueling is a near impossibility for this company. So if a passenger is also left behind, things are not looking good for non-revenue.

I would have given you at least my apologies and a heads up if I was operating the flight, as any upright person should. Maybe he was having a bad day, forgot, or got distracted. Heck, I’ll even fight to make sure the seat is available for you. But if the dispatcher screws the pooch and fuel is loaded, it’s a tough situation.

There is a battle going on - with all carriers and their jumpseats. We all need to work together and protect this or we all suffer.

In closing, no pilot group has 100% jumpseat-mindful pilots at all times, and lets be honest – I’ve had the pleasure of riding FE many times, and you guys have your share of sociopaths over there too! For a while, I thought it was a requirement!

FLYBYNITE,

As a pilot flying for PNCL's evil step-sister (Colgan), I can relate to the pressures management et. al. put on crews. Either the CA you ran into is the 1% jerks that every company has, or he was forced into a fight he felt he could not win.

PNCL pilots have a right to be angry at how funding for our aircraft came from the fruits of their labor. Yet they have been quite fair and helpful to our pilot group. Please, don't fault an entire group for one bad experience especially since it may have been beyond his control.

j

PS. to the PNCL folks, the folks at Colgan who REALLY understand things, thank you for your help.

I've seen flights go out late MANY times waiting for ballast or numbers to get a FedEx guy on to Memphis.

Thanks Airsupport for calling me on that, you were right and I didn't say it the way I should have. Yes, it frustrated me..but you have to be in the other guys shoes. Again, thanks for all you folks do for us Fedex guys...and the next time I ride a pinnacle jumpseat, it will at least be a starbucks gift card or something you guys can use.