Stay or Get out?
 

I have a passion for aviation and wanted to be a pilot since I can remember. Then I started to go on these forums. The amount negativity is out of control. In addition, I talk to airline pilots and they advise against the career. It leaves me wondering what I am doing. I currently have an instrument rating with about 200 hours, and I am junior at a state school, pursing a degree in business management. Even though I am getting a degree in business management, I have neither the intention nor the desire to do anything in management, law (lawyer) banking, sales, marketing, or anything along those lines. It is just a degree so I can check the box. I probably wouldn’t mind management with in the aviation industry if possible.

If you were in my shoes what would you do? Is it just the airline industry that gets a bad reputation or is it the whole aviation industry? Would pursuing a career as a corporate pilot be a better option or just forget a career in aviation? Suggestions?

Uh oh. .

Work to make a living and provide for your family, fly for fun.

Don't mix the two. So long as you are disciplined enough to stay active in the aviation world, regardless of how much $$ ur making , you'll get your fix.

You could make much better money doing something else and buy your own little airplane to play with on the weekends.

I highly suggest you immediately transfer to Embry-Riddle. Buy a job at Gulfstream after that. You'll be in the right seat of a real jet in no time!

Not ask a bunch of anonymous people, "what should I do?". Sorry but the only one who can make the right call here is you.

Cheers

If it is your dream, and you can get the ratings and time without going into debt, then go for it. Or you could try the Military.

The folks on these boards like to whine. If it rained vanilla ice cream sundaes, they would whine that there wasn't any chocolate.:D

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!

You have several options.

1)You get into the airlines, are happy and you stay.

2)You get into the airlines, are UNhappy and get out.

3)You don't get into the airlines, & you spend the rest of your life wondering what if............

Only YOU can make the decision. I will say this. I feel it's a wise decision for you to obtain a business degree. It's makes you so much more marketable if you decide to bail.

Good Luck to you. Cheers :)

That's funny! :p

There are 9000 pilots on furlough in the US alone. Thousands are also "made redundant" in Europe. Perhaps you can see a positive in that, but the reality is, it is tough. None of us can foresee the future, but based on the past, the future of the airline pilot business will probably never be what is was 10 or 20 years ago in the next 10 or 20 years.

But, maybe you don't need to make $300,000 a year to fly a heavy a few times a month. Will you be satisfied with one tenth that amount, working 20 days a month? Or being away from home on reserve for years? Or waiting 5, 10, or even 20 years for upgrade? Then getting the upgrade at your regional to then wait years and years to maybe get a job at a major airline, that might pay more, and it might pay less.... and you'll be on the bottom of another seniority list, subject to the next market downturn and probable furlough.

Consider yourself lucky that you've only invested 200 hours; that won't get you any job today, and in the future when hiring inevitably resumes, 2000 hours might not get you an airline job.

Perhaps you'll "work for nothing" to get that 2000 hours. When you're getting your first airline job, you'll get paid close to nothing, 'cuz it's all worth it. And then you'll get furloughed. Will it be worth it then? Even if you don't get furloughed, how long will your desire to fly propel you?

Maybe you'll luck out and all the stars will align. I know guys who've gotten 4 month upgrades. Others have moved straight from minimum hours in their single seat military jet to a heavy Delta Boeing jet flying the world. And guys who have retired with millions in the bank.

It's your gamble.

Or better yet, jump into an ERJ with 300hrs, get furloughed and spend your free time whining about how everyone else screwed you. Actually I'm being sarcastic, please dont be that guy. If you want some real advice, make your own decisions stick with them, be the best you can be and dont worry about the people in this industry with a chip on their shoulders. 90% of this industry is maintaining a professional attitude, and how you carry yourself in front of your customers..Oh and maybe look towards corporate flying as opposed to 121, not sure why but there seems to be less attitudes, and egos. No matter what you choose though, this industry is a lot of luck and timing, some get lucky some don't, and some think they have been burned only to have something better come along later. Life is what you make it, and good luck

I think N49194 and Johnso have the correct answers.

I have found most people that are negative are the most vocal........
At the same time I laugh because half of the people that answer these questions reply with "you should go to law school and make real money...." Sadly, I have a girlfriend, a sister, and a cousin that are all attorneys..... They all hate it.

Moderators: Please move this to the appropriate category.

I'd also add my recommendation to switch majors to something more mechanical. A business management degree is not entirely useless, but close. If you want to work in aviation management at some point, major in finance or accounting. Those are the two major business disciplines.

As far as flying, others have covered it well. It might work. It might not. Throw the dice and take what you get. The pro pilot world is a rat race and most of the time, you will be treated like a rat. There are exceptions, I've heard. I hope you find one of them.

Wprop, I have a feeling that you are pretty young. Lots of pilots like to whine. Even after they tell you not to do it, no body seem to be quiting their flying job. If they are leaving the airlines then I would be a little concern. If flying is really something you want to do, and you are young, I would say give it a try. If it doesn't work out, at least you can say that you've been there and done that and try something else. Otherwiese you will always wonder what if... Like someone else mentioned, it's a gamble. Good luck.

Why do so many people get a degree just to "check the box?" If you're going to put yourself through the time and expense of getting a degree, you might as well learn something useful and interesting in the process.

Nothing to do with the OPs question.... but come on, people.

Do what you want. I'll be the first to tell you I love 121 flying. I love the Embraer. I love the time away from home. (my girlfriend doesn't know about these forums). I like hanging out with the crew. Even the people who complain endlessly on here more than likely enjoy those things. But there is a very real side to being an airline pilot. There is alot more to being an airline pilot than aviation. All of which need to learn before getting in deeper. You need to figure out for yourself if you can handle it. Can you deal with no job security? Can you deal with being away from home? Can you deal with 16 hour duty days? Can you deal with a Coke for breakfast at 4 a.m.? Some people can. Some people can't. Some people envy me. Some people wouldn't want to be me for all the tea in China. I think the best advice anybody ever gave regarding your decision is...sure why not...try it out for a while...but HAVE A BACKUP PLAN!

Nah...

Don't get into this. It is not worth it on so many levels. Work to live and prosper. Flying is fun when you get to go where, how, or why you want.
I would have done something else if I knew what i know now.

I wouldn't say don't do it, cause if you do, you'll be wondering "what if" for the rest of your life, and that would be pretty sad to say the least. I did it, had some fun, learned the airplane, captained it, and had a great time. The time away from home can be therapeutic for some, different cities/towns every night, being surrounded by different people on a daily basis, not knowing your future until it's your present, etc...all of this can be the perfect lifestyle for the right individual, it can also be a living nightmare for the wrong one. You can guess at it, but you won't know if it's the right choice for you until you've tried it out. All in all, i wouldn't trade my time at the airlines, I met some great individuals, had the chance to really test my aviation knowledge in the most practical of ways, learn a complex and exciting new airplane, travel 10 miles a minute, and even get my wife and I across the pond in first class both ways for under 1k bucks for the whole trip.

As of now, im out of the business (on my accord), have a good career, good co-workers, and a stable life...I can make plans on the weekend, and guarantee that i'll keep them, I get good insurance, decent pay, 40 hr work weeks, and peace of mind. As it stands right now, i wouldn't trade this job either. But that's what happens as life changes around you, what works for you today, may not work for you tomorrow, just don't let someone else make your decisions for you. Think long and hard about it, then make up your mind.

PS- You might have plenty of time to think about it, cause at 200 hrs, you're not near a professional cockpit yet...so it'll either be doing charter work in a baron, or instructing in a 172 for quite a while until you've got the time requirements for the airlines, WHENEVER they start hiring again.

lol, so true.

Listen to them
 

If the pilots you meet are telling you not to do it then perhaps you should listen to them? Even Sully does not recommend this profession.

My advise is to get a degree in Business. Start a career in something other than aviation or develop a trade and fly on the side. Build your ratings and flight time. Fate might come along and provide you with an opportunity to get into aviation but at least you will not go broke trying and you will have a realistic alternate.

Skyhigh

Who's getting Chocolate sundays, Im not thats for sure. I bet we were going to get chocolate sundays but Mesa or someone came in and said they could give vanilla for cheaper and management bought it so now all we get is vanilla, this sucks! Ive been in this industry for over 2 weeks and I cant even get a chocolate sunday. All of you people screwed up the Chocolate sundays for the rest of us!!!!!!!

What I'm trying to say in my own way is due what is best for you but have a back up plan. If you can ride out the bad times the good times are worth it

Do what will make you happy in life. Guys that are unhappy on these boards are normally those who feel a sense of entitlement that they have not obtained. Getting a good aviation job takes time, dedication, skill, and some luck.

Do what makes you happy
 

It makes me happy to earn a decent living and preserve my hopes for the future.

Yup that is it alright, a false sense of entitlement. :rolleyes: People have a right to be upset. The industry has changed dramatically over the last 7 years.

I especially liked the "it takes some luck" part.

Skyhigh

heeey a baron is a professional cockpit

I know a few guys that run businesses or have other jobs, then instruct on the side or fly some cargo a few nights during the week. That seems a nice medium. You make real money in your real job, and still get your flying fix.

Someone said there is not as much griping on the corporate side, there are reasons for that. Junior guys at corp. jobs make a lot more than junior guys at regionals. At most corporate jobs, meals are provided for the crew. At corporate jobs, there used to be not as much a chance at being furloughed (although that has changed now). Corporate guys don't usually fly 15 hour days, and get paid for 5 hours, like a regional pilot.

I also know a couple guys that started flying way back when, worked at several companies, and never were furloughed. But, I do know a few guys that have been in this business for 20 years, never furloughed, and then their company shut down and they are out on the street. In my opinion, this is one of the most unpredictable careers there is. You never know what tomorrow holds. If you can live with that, then fine. If not, find another career.

You can act like a professional, be the best pilot in the company, and be the safest pilot in the world. When it comes time to furlough, you are just a seniority number. The only job where time, not quality of your work, determines your position in the company. No promotion to captain just because you fly great or you are a great employee.

I was a diesel mechanic, drove a tractor trailer over-the-road, flew traffic reporting, and flew cargo in the northeast (ice and night). When I got to a regional, I never complained about a 12-16 hour day, it was normal for me. I never complained about pay (I took a 2/3 cut in pay to fly). I never complained about my schedule (I lived close enough to my domicile that I could drive there). I went into the airlines because it was something I wanted to do for years. I did not want to say "what if". Then, after two years....out on the street. I had never been unemployed before, and finding a flying job in this environment is not easy. The company I was furloughed from will most likely never call back furloughs. After 10 months have past, I look back and wonder if I would go back to an airline.

You will get a lot of different opinion. I happy where i am. Do i wish I made more money and have a better schedule? sure. I just can't see myself doing something else for a living at this time.

I don't think too many places would hire him for "charter work in a baron" at 200 hours...at least, not any of the places I flew charter!

Go to grad school.

Go to tech school.

Then, if you can find someplace you'd be happy to go work (yourself?) take it. But DON'T depend on aviation for your livelihood.

I make more on unemployment than any of the regional's 1st year pay.

How long have you worked in the airline industry? I instructed for almost 2 years working my butt off and flew over 2000 hours. During this time I also did any additional flying I could scrounge up to increase multi and TT. I then got my first regional job and promptly got furloughed (to never be recalled by that company). After a while I landed another regional job that lasted for almost 10 years before being hired by a major. The airline business has always been cyclic....

As for the luck part, all jobs have that. When I hired on at NWA they interviewed over 12,000 applicants for about 400 positions. I have no idea how many applications they actually received by I count myself lucky to have made it through the process successfully.

I am going to assume you were trying to get into this career around the early 90's? How do you compare now to then? I have heard and read that it was just wicked in the early 90's. Upgrading on a metro took 4000-5000 total time. Pan Am and Eastern pilots looking for work, and the first Gulf war going on made it tough.

I actually got into aviation in the mid 80's..... You are correct that during down times finding a job is tough at best. When I was hired at a regional the hiring mins were 2500TT 500ME, some got in with less but not many. Upgrade was normally 3-6 years depending upon who you worked for. Then as you state between furloughing airlines plus airlines going out of business jobs were scarce and upgrades non-existent. Pay was where it has always been for a regional, in the gutter!

When I finally hired on with NWA the average guy in my class had over 11,000TT and 3 type ratings. All had thousands of hours of PICS..... The road in the profession can be tough. There are those that land on a smooth path and have great transitions in their careers, while others can't seem to catch a break. Most of this is nothing more than dedication and timing.

There are several options to lighten the burden of commercial aviation on the finances:

Air National Guard - Home

1800goguard.com

Baseops Forums

U.S. Army Recruiting Command's Warrant Officer Recruiting Information Site

Also if you do not qualify for military aviation due to age, vision, etc you might still want to consider the military reserves or guard in a non-flying capacity.

The pay gets pretty decent over time (for officers), it can provide the retirement that airlines won't (the medical may be the most valuable part of the package), and it will be good for your white-collar professional development and networking in case you ever need a fall-back career. If direct-action combat isn't your bag, there are many support jobs available...more of those than shooter jobs.

It is the easiest "side-job" to schedule around the airlines...you tell them when you will be gone, and the airline says "OK".

Obviously you need a desire to serve and a willingness to deploy in a combat zone.

Have you considered ATC or engineering (in the aviation field)? After 4 years in the industry, I am working on another career. You are right in noticing that the airline pilot career is in bad condition right now. But not only that, its getting a lot worse. With that being said, flying is a whole lot of fun. I specially love airline flying! Thats why there are so many guys willing to do it for nothing. The low pay and bad working conditions are there for one reason; supply and demand. Right now there are way too many pilots and not nearly enough pilot jobs. I ***** and moan quite a bit about RAH on here but in the end the industry is bad and going to get a lot more worse not because of RAH, Mesa, GO, Sky West, Express Jet, Comair etc etc etc.... its only because of supply and demand. The reason I believe its going to get a lot worse is because until now, we believed that bad pay and working conditions is something we all had to endure at the regionals for a time till we reach the "promised land" (the major airlines)... but now even major airline pay will be as bad as regional pay. Unions, while they do a lot of good, in the end cannot do anything about long term pay rates because once a pilot group refuses to fly for lower wages, another pilot group will do it.... and once again, its supply and demand, not because one pilot group is "better" than the other.

Remember, flying is a lot of fun but it wont help you raise a family, save for retirement and live a decent life... unless you get lucky.

6 years later, one hefty flight school loan that I will be paying for a long time and now I'm finding another career... would I do it all over again?
... Sadly yes. it was one hell of a ride.

Huh? Why do you spread your incorrect opinion as some sort of fact, to deter people? Your statement is 100% false.

I raise a family, save for retirement and live a decent life while flying. I am an Regional Captain, 7th year. My wife is a stay at home mom. My pay feeds, clothes and raises my family. We live in a 2100 sq foot home on a 2 acre lot on a cul-de-sac. We take a couple trips a year to the beach or some fun location. We regularly attend sporting events or go to museums, amusement parks, mountain cabins, etc. I save between 15-20% of my pay for retirement. Are we living like Jay Z or A Rod? No. But neither is 99.9% of society. My neighbors all have jobs like office manager, police sargeant, delivery driver, salesmen, or middle management. My pay puts me on par or ahead of them. Where do you come up with this kind of statement? Why can you not live a decent life and raise a family on $75,000 - $100,000 per year? Most Americans make less than that. One most certainly can live a decent life from flying - even at the Regional level.

Shelf Life
 

I could run through my resume but I will not. Lets say that I did my time. I had over 3800 hours before I was able to make it to my first regional.

The recession of the early 1990's sidelined my generation for about 5 years. I applied to every major for most of the last two decades and scrapped up every flying job I could. The problem is that it takes too much luck. If someone is comfortable with those odds then perhaps they should take the 150K in college and flight training loans and buy a pile of lottery tickets instead?

You left behind 11,600 pilot who possibly are still struggling at their regionals, had to give up or are furloughed. It comes off as incredibly insensitive, superior and unappreciative of the blessings you have to come onto these forums during a recession and suggest that the rest of us did not work hard enough. The truth is that it takes strong internal contacts or a massive amount of luck.

The current generation of new pilots are facing a situation that generations past can not comprehend. They have been handed the worst economic conditions since the great depression. On top of that the industry seems intent upon destroying itself. It is not fair, kind nor accurate to try and apply your experiences to their prospects.

Skyhigh

Not to hijack, but I don't think that the point was that the numbers don't jive. After 2 or 3 years, even an FO can at least contribute to household income bringing in 35-40k. A CA can bring in more.

The idea, if I am correct, is that the lack of job security makes it tough. For example, an FO gets hired and flies for a year or two, is just starting to get decent pay, then gets furloughed for a year. The effective annual salary earned, allocated over the period including that year of no pay, is reduced substantially. Never mind paying on loans if he/she has them. Then a recall, stays at FO pay for many years, finally gets an upgrade to the left seat and better money. Flies as CA for 6 months or so, then a downgrade back to FO and commensurate pay.

Soon enough, back to CA pay again, then gets on with a major airline (a crap shoot now days it seems). Gets furloughed from the major airline after a bit. Gets recalled and flies as a major airline FO for many many years. Company eventually goes out of business. The pilot is on the street again and is forced to take another job at first year pay all over again and/or faces another few years on the street.

Throw in a medical problem and he's done for good.

In the regional airline world playing musical domiciles, commuting can severely reduce the time (not money) that you have with a family.

Is everyone's path going to be this rocky? No. But many will experience something similar.

Sorry if I came across as insensitive or superior..... I was just trying to point out that the airline industry has always been cyclic. When times are good lots of hiring takes place and wages increase, in the bad the opposite is true. The guys that make it to the majors are normally the ones who put in the most effort to get hired. Normally they all have high time, lots of PIC experience, a 4 year degree, and in good health and well rounded. I am not saying you aren't/didn't try to get hired or that you don't meet the above parameters, I am just saying that I know what the guys in my class did to get hired and it was a lot more than just send in a resume.

As the economy improves airlines will once again expand and hire. Getting in at the beginning of any hiring hopefully will offer a seniority number that will protect one when the times get bad again.

You have alot of decisions to make. Luckily, you're only 200 hours in. Many of us have devoted so much blood sweat and tears to this career that it would be a shame to drop out now. All we can hope for is a better future, whatever that might be.

I'm not sure if this board is the best place to be looking for this kind of advice though, there are al ot of bitter and ****ed off people here, but they have they're reasons and I don't blame them.

That being said, I'll offer my suggestion. ATC is a GREAT career, with good income, a solid retirement, and great insurance. It's also incredibly stable, and you don't need a college degree to get in to. Watching air planes take off from the tower, or cramming 30 airplanes in to 90 miles during crappy weather in the northeast and then flight instructing on the weekends is a GREAT balance. If you truly love aviation and its your passion its the only thing you'll ever want to do no matter what job that might be.