I think they serve the public well. Somebody needs to stand up to the glossy ads the the GA magazines. It kind of a Jane Curtin vs. Dan Akroid thing.

Well,well,well...quite an undercurrent of resentment here.Degree vs. no degree ? Since it IS and HAS been a defacto requirement for any major,what does it matter ? I'll tell you: The regional captains with no degree won't be moving to a major.Why is this a problem ? Because you're holding up the career progression of the entitlement generation ! "I"M ENTITLED to my 1,000 turbine PIC ! My professors at Riddle told me so ! That's MY seat,you lifer scum !" You know,the lifers get together and talk.They talk about such and such F/O,you know.They realize that F/O's are hoping to move them out of the way via various means.One called the company at EXACTLY show time and said his captain was late.Thing was,he wasn't late-he was in the crew room where he's supposed to be.So the captain had him pulled off the trip and he got to explain to the lifer chief pilot why he didn't know the GOM.Some of these lifers are check airmen.It would be bad if you got an unsat on your next PC-might be a bad thing on your app to Southwest.As for a degree inferring intellect-please ! Have any of you ever seen what a longshoreman makes ? You'd be crying in your beer.Now argue amongst yourselves,but be aware,the lifers are onto you.

Is there a point somewhere in all of this rambling?

WOW, you just summed up Airline Pilot Central High in 10 words or less....:D

I am beginning to wonder if you are delusional..... so, where are you trying to go with all this? Are you looking for people who share your sentiment?

I actually feel a bit sorry for you... okay, not anymore. Why don't you focus all this energy and time you waste on here into something productive with your life?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you go fly with Skybus?

Have to agree with Juice, Tink (my man...congrats, by the way), and flyJSH...I've noticed skyhigh is ALWAYS tappin' his toes to the wrong beat. C'mon...if you went from the regionals to 757 LLC f/o, there are jobs to be had...check out climbto350 or other similar sites.

I also went to college/military in the late '80's and NO you did NOT walk on with the majors after a few hundred hours and a degree in hand. That didn't happen, unless you made a typo and meant the late '60's. (Even then, you had guys leaving tours from Southeast Asia in Phantoms and going to the front of the line)

Tink...right on the money...when the shiite-hits-the-fan in the cockpit, I'll take the "uneducated" freight-dog sitting next to me over the "educated" Riddle-diddle anyday of the week and twice on Sundays. By the way...the military does not necessarily require a degree to fly-see USNR NavCad, USA Warrant Officer, etc.

No I don't have a 4 year degree, (left college early as a NavCad), and to those who've posted that college was far more difficult than flying...I have no idea where you're flying, but college is a joke compared to airline training...(and I majored in Finance Business admin)

As you know - the NavCad program comes and goes. You only had a certain amount of time to get your degree after commissioning correct?

USMCFLYR

Clearly you are a very wise fellow :D

I would add, I'll take anybody who realizes he doesn't know everything.

About your university experience.... Finance and Business Administration has got to be easy..... that is where Airline Managers come from ;)

(by the way, while it is nice you saved the best for last, I really deserved top billing... keep that in mind for next time)

The Juice always gets top billing, never forget that.

Ahh...I do know 1st hand...as for the degree requirement, not sure what the original program from the '60's required, however, not the case in '89. Had to have a 2year degree, but you could NOT have a 4year, or you couldn't qualify, as that would make you a normal A.O.C. While in college, you had a choice of AVROC,ROTC, NAVCAD, or Marine Corps PLC. Once you got the degree, the only way was AOC. I went Navy, since I wanted to join the military (USN), not a new religion (USMC);).

Didn't matter though, as you correctly pointed out, the program went away while at AOCS, (thank you Graham/Rudman bill). After AOCS, you were considered an E-4 until flight training completion, then you got your butter-bars, then RAG squadron, etc.,etc.

Hope that answered your question, (and my memory is correct...20 years is a long time).

"The Juice always gets top billing, never forget that."

Wonder if there's a way to whipsaw you 2 to my own benefit?...I'll have to call Hulas to see if he has any suggestions.

Dude, you are certainly proving one thing................an airline career is not for you!

You have moved on to something else yet still feel the need to spend an excessive amount of time on APC. Plenty here have sucessful careers in the business and plenty more will follow. Air travel is not doomed and neither are the careers of many who look to these forums for insight. Your posts are extremely negative. There are no guaruntees in life but living in fear is counter productive. Why not move on and prosper in another industry and give yourself peace.


Al

Slight thread drift - but any drift away from the negativity from the orignal post can't be ALL bad!

I remember the late 80's timeframe. I even looked into the NAVCAD program myself, but as you said, it became a non-factor for me.
The program was alive and well in the early 90's though. One of my best friends through intermediate and advanced was a NAVCAD.
My point about the degree was post commissioning. If I remember correctly - he had a certain number of years AFTER commisssioning that he must have completed his degree program - or what else might happen. :confused: You mentioned in your post above Marine PLC. I don't remember, at least in my time in the USMC, a person ever being commissioned without a degree and flying. We did have one NAVCAD candidate who AFTER getting commissioned, chose to switch over to the USMC (and the new enlightened religion! ;)). Must have been a tough time for him then going back through The Basic School as a winged aviator. In the early 90's when the USN had too many and the USMC had too few, some USN types were offered and transfer over to the USMC instead of accepting "boat orders" for their first assignment. He ended up as a squadronmate of mine in my first squadron and thankfully was ALWAYS the junior officer in the squadron (e.g. coffee mess officer and the like!)

USMCFLYR

ummmm not likely. I am infected with GOPS (grimy old prop syndrome).

Now, you manage to find a DC-4, Convair, or better yet, a Connie, I am your man!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rgzAnrI6Bw
Atthur Godfrey Shows off the Supper Connie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCL7F...eature=channel
More of Arthur .... What a Chesterfield?
also "Watch this! Feather One!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3cNh0azmas
Note the flames when she if running full rich

I have to say...I don't remember the degree requirement post-commissioning...(damn, I'm gettin' old). As for your friend, it coulda' been worse...in the late 80's, the "needs of the Navy" often disregarded class standing, and rumor had it all us NavCads were going SD6D (Steel-Desk-6-Drawers), or God Forbid...helo's, (better than Base Head Sanitation Officer...but not much):D

...and I'm actually glad to hijack this thread, so anything else off-topic you'd like to discuss would be welcome...and probably put a monkey-knot in Skyhigh's shorts.

Circa 1986, as an enlisted Marine, I applied to the "enlisted commissioning program" to become a naval aviator.

I also do not recall any degree requirement post facto. The limitation of "limited duty officer" meant that no promotion was possible past LtCol (O-5).

I failed the eye test for the USMC, however, I was accepted as a "student naval flight officer". Also, I was offered a transfer to the Navy to become a "student naval aviator", which then accepted up to 20/40 vision in any eye, correctable to 20/20.

"Dude, you are certainly proving one thing................an airline career is not for you!"

Skyhigh has told me working for Southwest was not a worthy job due to his personal situation with five kids, living in a little central Washington town, and wanting to be home every night. These are all strikes against a happy piloting career. If you can't deal with the pilot lifestyle, as some can't, and Skyhigh couldn't, it's best to go another route.

Ahhh, the joy of being a confirmed bachelor ;)

Maybe I should add a bullet to my resume:
"No encumbrances prohibiting relocation or extended trips"

1 in 100 will make it to SWA though - if that. I flew with loads of captains (who ALL put in there stuff with SWA) and only 3 from my entire airline made it and they were legends in the company. The others were turned down with no valid reason and were just waiting for the requisite 6 months period to pass to apply again.

What do you mean by this? I am assuming that they met all the minimums?
So if you do meet the mins but weren't hired then there is no valid reason?
I'm sure that I am misinterpeting your post.

USMCFLYR

Maybe to them, but I'm sure that SWA HR had a reason to. Most applicants will never know what they did wrong to get the heave ho.

Story to make the point: Knew a guy who did the hiring for a legacy. In the interview, there were two captains and a young girl from HR. The only person in the room with a say was the girl, and any applicant who did not make eye contact with her, or treated her as an equal to the captains wasn't hired. The thought process was that if you couldn't accept her as an equal, you would have difficulty accepting a female's authority.

Plenty of guys walked out of there shocked, because they had schmoozed those guys like no ones business and never once made eye contact with her, and to this day, they have no idea what went wrong.

USMCFLYR,

If SWA has 10 openings and 1000 apps from fully qualified pilots, what selection method would be best to use?

Presumably you could eliminate half the candidates for typos, or poor grammar, or penmanship on their application.

You could chop off another two hundred or so because they wore brown shoes instead of black to the interview.

Drop another two hundred simply because they do not live in a SWA city. Kinda unfair, but that still leaves 100 candidates for ten jobs.

Its not at all unimaginable that SWA would eliminate qualified candidates for reasons irrelevant to the position, merely to arrive at a manageable number of candidates.

Absolutely - and SWA would find those perfectly good reasons to cut the pool down. Those would be valid reasons to SWA. Not all of those people are going to get a job - so you are saying that ANYONE not hired was for an invalild reason? If SWA has that many applicants for that many jobs then only so many are hired - whether those not hired think the reasons are valid or not. I'm sure they don't think so.
I've asaked before whether applicants are told WHY they don't get the job in any interview. I've been told by HR folks that part of the reason is liability. If a cnadidate doesn't knwo why they weren't hired - how do they know if there was a valid reason or not?

I'm wondering if someone who makes a statement like the one above has ever sat on a selection board of ANY kind. What would be thier answer if those not selected would tell him/her that there was no valid reason for not selecting said person. I'd bet that selection board member would have a reason. Same applies here IMO.

USMCFLYR

Heyas,

FWIW, Braniff (at least the version people normally think of) went TU in 1982, not 1989 like some had posted.

Also in the late 80's PanAm was in serious rewind.

I seriously doubt our intrepid Skyhigh saw ANYONE carring those "uniform bags" around.

Nu

It is true I thought that an airline career was going to be the rock to build a full life upon. I expected it to possibly even improve access to family life.

Apparently it is supposed to be your entire life. People need to know that. We are all here to learn something.

The pilot lifestyle: A disconnected, disenfranchised, lonesome, occasionally impoverished, and often expatriate, never ending life on the road.

Skyhigh

Another overgeneralized, exaggerated, and negative to the extreme OPINION.

I've suggested to you over and over that you would reach more people with your *message* if you weren't so obviously extreme in your views.
You state that your purpose is to educated - but you do more harm than good with your approach.

Just tell the truth and admit like you like the attention you get when people argue with you.

People - if some of you believe a statement like this then I highly encourage you to leave this industry or seek professional help.

USMCFLYR

Fill in the blank, many professions fit this profile. (Maybe not the expat part.)

I knew full well what this career held when I undertook it in the early eighties.

The message has always been out there.

Also true for the military, long haul trucking, Alaskan fisherman, regional salesman, and dozens of others.

Yes, one needs to know that a job in the transportation industry means one will not be home every night. Kinda like one who aspires to be a doctor should be able to handle the sight of blood.

But, DUH, it is transportation! If you don't realize you will be away from home much of the time, whose fault is that?

For the record, there are flying jobs that don't require travel (sight seeing, traffic watch, lifting parachutists, banner patrol, and some air ambulance), but they don't carry the "Glamor" or the stereotypical pay of being an airline pilot.

So, yes, people that want to be airline pilots need to understand they will be away from home much of the time, and miss Billy's birthday, and miss holidays.

But it sounds to me, you, Sky, didn't realize that, wanted the industry to change to meet your desires, and now are whining about how cruel the industry is. I have had three xmases off since 1992, it isn't fun, but I have learned to open presents over the phone, or make some other date "the day". I don't like it, but until someone pays me to sit on my butt and watch tv, I will deal with it.

Get over it!! the life wasn't for you. Go find a job as a manager at the local A&P working 7 to 3, earn your 38K, be happy, and leave those of us who enjoy our work to the business of flying.

j

I don't think your describing a pilot's lifestyle, I think you may just be describing your outlook on your life. I could be wrong though, however I have always been a believer that the person who is truly happy and content with his or her life doesn't constantly tell the world about it. On the other hand, the person who is constantly trying to tell other people how to live their lives, while constantly reaffirming the decisions they've made, are the one's who are truly unhappy and miserable.

Better than a disconnected, disenfranchised, lonesome, occasionally impoverished, often expatriate, never ending life behind a desk.

I get so tired of the "behind the desk" statement that people use. Your job is only exciting if it challenges you, pushes you up against obstacles and presents problems that need to be solved on a routine basis. The presence of a desk or not has little to do with it.

I could paint gauges all over a desk and come awfully close to the environment of a pilot (still sitting in a seat staring at CRTs) - yet still get to enjoy career progression, professional mobility, and ability to branch out and run my own business.

I, um, was speaking figuratively. I have nothing against any specific piece of furniture. Some of my best friends are desks.

New Perspective
 

APC has taught me to appreciate that there are people out there who enjoy living an impoverished life of disconnected lonesome living on the road. :)

I never wanted that for myself. My goal was to have a career that offered me better wages, benefits, home life and a flexible schedule to be able to build a healthy family life upon. I hoped that my career would provide enough income to build a nice financial portfolio so that I could afford to fully provide for the needs of my family.

A lucky few are able to accpmolish that however the odds are long and the reality is that most will not end up living where they wanted or earning what they need. If you are a confirmed bachelor who does not care where they live then as a pilot you may have found your paradise.

Skyhigh

"A lucky few are able to accpmolish that however the odds are long and the reality is that most will not end up living where they wanted or earning what they need. If you are a confirmed bachelor who does not care where they live then as a pilot you may have found your paradise."

I wouldn't take Skyhigh seriously....

"A lot of what I write here is intended as humor and most do not get it."

Skyhigh 4/08/09

ok. But could you surf Waikiki, eat chowder at the Purple Shamrock in Boston, and ride a p.o.s. rental bike through Venice Beach all in the same 4 day work period? Or how about drive to work once per week instead of dealing with that traffic M-F? I have to say this job is pretty sweet. Sometimes hard to deal with from the perspective of what it used to be, but still pretty sweet. ;)

Probably as tired as people get about hearing how worthless anybody is that wants to stay in the aviation business. Some people don't want a desk job. Never have - and it seems so far - never will.
MOST people on here on say t hat THEY don't want a job either, but they stop short of branding anyone who does want a desk job as worthless.
How many posters on here have attacked YOU PERSONALLY Bryris for stepping away from aviation? Most that I have seen have said - "Good luck, hope the situation is working out for you, enjoy yourself"
Other posters have called people who have decided to stay in the game all kind of uncalled for names and made claims that they aren't taking care of their families.

As to your last sentence....so no one in the aviation business can enjoy those things? You aren't saying only aviation in the P121 world - you are lumping ALL of aviation under your blanket statement.

You're tired????
Join the club.

USMCFLYR

I am happily married to a wonderful woman and have 3 great kids! I work with lots of guys whose lives come first and the career second. Life is what you make of it not what one gets or doesn't......

Skyhigh, you're like a broken record. You come on here and trash the industry and anyone who's decided to stick it out, all for what? Take a look in the mirror when you say things like,

Apparently this career has consumed you because you still come on here and try to justify yourself. Maybe it makes you feel better to come on here everyday and trash airline Pilots as a whole but if it sucks so bad then why do you consume yourself on here badmouthing it? In fact this makes you look like the one whom is "disconnected, disenfranchised, lonesome, occasionally impoverished, and often expatriate". Move on and spare us of your depression filled posts. :cool:


DEAD ON!!

That is cool bar, as is The Green Dragon and Black Rose. Not sure if there's the pool place in that local anymore, but when I was there it was called The Rack.

Seemed to describe the attributes of many of the patrons as well as a pool table establishment.