Entitlement
 

Pilots today are often accused of having a sense of entitlement. Critics claim that they seem to have an unbalanced expectation that soon after training they would earn a good living and start out flying their hearts desire.

I can not see as how that is a bad thing. Shouldn't we all have a sense of entitlement? It takes a big cash and life investment to become a professional pilot. Should we all not set high expectations for our careers and hold the industry to it?

I went to college in the late 1980's. Times were good then for pilots. Airlines were hiring. Classmates who had graduated just a year or two prior would commonly return to campus with their TWA, Braniff or Pan Am uniform in a garment bag folder over their forearm. After a quick change in a closet the uniformed pilot would then be escorted into the nearest class interrupting the lecture in progress so that the valiant young airline hero could share tales of his airline life and explain why he went with the hard top corvette instead of the convertible.

We all expected to get hired at a major airline within a few years of graduation. No one suggested that we would be received by the industry any differently. Had we known what our generation of pilots faced I am sure that those speeches would have been given to empty classrooms.

I can empathize with pilots who were sitting in class a few years ago while recent graduates immediately went on to the regional of their choice. Now graduation the latest generation of pilots are dealing with the shock of a very different reception. In their backlash they are labeled as having an "entitlement" attitude and why shouldn't they? Aviation is not a religion it is an investment.

Skyhigh

Love it or leave it.

It is not an investment. It is not even a career as much as it is a lottery, and it has always been so.

Oh, and I think what you saw in your classes is what is called "marketing".

Apc
 

People need to know that stuff. The information is not getting through.

Skyhigh

I consider all my education, time, and money spent trying to become an airline pilot an "INVESTMENT" Needless to say my "INVESTMENT" needs to start producing some dividends. Over ten years in this industry and I am still sliding backwards.

Its no different than a Doctor or a Lawyer in terms of time spent in school and doing intern work and should become a decent career.

Only lawyers proofread :)

Zing!! You beat me to it.

There are less airplanes that need to be flown than there are disputes to resolve (lawyer) or broken bodies to fix (doctor). Plus, there is an attraction to flying that the other professions don't have that lures people in. Compared to many professions, commercial flying is actually fairly easy to enter.

Furthermore, being a pilot is not the same as being a doctor or a lawyer or even an engineer. With the funding problem resolved, one could go from zero to commercial pilot, CFI, II, MEI and several hundred hours logged within a single year. Med school and law school, by comparison, take significantly longer and a much greater investment.

Furthermore, the very students who are trying to build flying experience turn into the teachers in many cases. Compare that precedent to that of university professors which are mostly required to hold doctorate degrees and have worked in industry for years. You can find a CFI for a dime a dozen now days with a simple Google search. Its tougher to find a path into a profession that governs its own entrants/standards whether it be through the Bar, AICPA, or AMA.

Just because one pursues his/her dream to fly, which satisfies a deep personal purpose in many cases and is generally a fun pursuit, as opposed to sitting in a college classroom listening to a law lecture, and comes out with a license doesn't mean one is entitled to anything.

Professional aviation is great to those who make it. They may call it luck, perseverance, or sheer skill - or whatever label is attached to it. However, the supply exceeds demand right now, and the regionals were touted as a stepping stone, luring in those who were trying to time build, and turned out not to be. Now we've got a group of pilots in the regionals who are upset at the status quo and the streets are filled with furloughees longing for a recall despite their complaints.

I, for one, think something more like this is needed in Professional Aviation.

There's a movement right now to do just that - the acronym for it is ATP.

The FAA ATP is far from the same level as passing the bar exam. If we could get on the same level as the other ICAO nations ATPL requirements then we might have something to start with.

I think there needs to be more barriers to entry than that, including a 4 year degree and 21 years old for the right seat. (cue all the guys who shunned everybody's advice and got into this without a degree):rolleyes:

How many of the last generation actually researched the industry to understand what was going on or at least read "Flying the Line" to get a grasp of reality, instead of being blinded by the stories of good times and fat paychecks?

I couldn't agree more. I have actually sent letters to the Congressional Aviation Sub-Comittee requesting to add the Bachelors Degree requirement to the ATP (thereby requiring all FAR 121 pilots to have a four year degree). I was politely brushed off with an email that talked about the economy and the ATA.... basically telling me that pilots would be too powerfull and too well paid like lawyers and doctors to actually make quality substantive change.
Funny how its fine for the government to require me to have a bachelors degree to fly one of thier airplanes but as far as thier concerned, I could have a GED to fly for and airline.
I truley wish that ALPA and all legacy carriers would try to push this. Thats the only thing that ever seems to give anything traction.

There is no causal relationship, that is the problem. A guy with an online internet college degree in "whatever" likely just did it as background noise to his fight training in order to check the box, as compared to someone who went to school and majored in chemical engineering or something else similarly challenging.

I have a hard time with the idea of going to a 4 year school to major in aviation. However, as a weed out factor, perhaps this is the best answer if we are going to implement an education requirement.

Of course there is a sense of entitlement. The last few years hiring has been free for all, plus it was happening in an economy that had no foundation and was about to collapse. No body stopped to think if it was the norm. Hey, is it normal that I'm flying thousands of unsuspecting people in a JET at 300 hours? I guess it is because they're hiring me. There is a sense of entitlement in this generation. That's a good thing to have for the future though. It's all about the airline cycle, if you do a search every doomsday post that is made now has been made before on every previous down cycle. It's nothing new, things will pick up again.

On blastoff's cue...
Really? You think that a person who spent 4 years studying under water basket weaving will be a better pilot? I won't lie the life skills I learned in college will be with me forever, but you can get other life skills working a full time job for 4 years. You still learn the basics - time management, responsibility, hierarchies, and interpersonal skills.
So the freight dawg who after high school, busted tables at 5.15/hour to save up for his commercial, finally landed that back side of the clock gig and now 10 years later, has about 5,000 hours and 4,000 ME PIC wouldn't be qualified for the job?
I know the new law would require ATP mins, but what would having a BS really solve? Why not require a BS for the regionals and a Master's for majors?
To actually tie back to the OP, I have seen very little sense of entitlement in the aviation industry. What I've seen the MOST is the "because I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow to school, so should you!" Maybe I should make a post about that...

Skyhigh, I find it strange that you mention in this thread pilots should have a better career in aviation.

"Should we all not set high expectations for our careers and hold the industry to it?"

And yet you are a proponent of Pay for Job programs that do nothing other than make the career worse. I mean, why should airlines pay better when people are willing to pay for a job? You make no sense....

"Why not buy a job if you have the money? Who made these rules anyway?"

"The only pilots that care about pay to play are those who are on the rungs below. No one else really cares. The FAA does not care. Future employers really do not care. The customers do not care."

"If someone can create an opportunity for themselves using a check book then why is that so wrong?"
It seems to me that only those who perceive an unfair advantage are the ones to get hot under the collar.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pa...c-program.html

He would be grandfathered in.

But it wasn't a very good career plan. Sounds like he feels entitled even though he did something against the advice of nearly every person who has flown for a living. A little reckless even. Going forward, who in their right mind does that anyways? These are the people we don't want speaking for us at the next contract negotiation.

Heck why require a High School diploma then?

Answer: We're talking about restoring the profession and we need to have a baseline education level, whether you study Basketweaving at Internet U, or went to State and studied engineering.

If it's that easy, then why all the fuss about making it a requirement?

And yes, the average college grad is a better candidate to succeed in this profession versus one who is not. Notice I said average...there are plenty of exceptional pilots without degrees, but they made their own bed, knowing full well the degree requirement has existed on and off throughout the modern history of Airline hiring. They also knew they would be competing for jobs against military pilots, 99% of which have a Bachelors, many with a Masters. Though like I said, if a rule was made in the future, they would have to be grandfathered in.

Yes, what he said. Beat me to it, dadgummit!!! :)

As long as we don't run out of oil. Unlike global warming, this issue is not a conspiracy theory, it is an obvious fact. The only question is When?

If you are young, better consider that. There are technical solutions to that problem, but our national leaders have been slow to develop these, for a variety of political and economic reasons. We cannot even get a reasonably believable estimate of how much is left...everyone who has the means to come up with such an estimate also has a possible motive to skew the results.

Our industry leaders, not surprisingly, have taken a stance which bears a striking resemblance to a large, flightless bird. Of course none of them even plan to be around in 5-7 years, so why worry ;)

When oil prices skyrocket for real, we had better have an alternative infrastructure already in place or the economic damage will end this profession for most of us. Things will recover eventually, there are enough alternatives, but it could take decades.

Minimum 10 pages on this one...

I absolutely agree. I left my engineering career to fly and I have to say flying is a much easier job than what I was doing before. It is not even in the same ballpark as other highly paid professions. Some of my colleagues that I fly with, would have no chance of passing any type of degree program. I was shocked just how poorly educated some pilots are.

Before I started looking at the profession I assumed that all airline pilots were required to have a degree. When I found out this was not a requirement I assumed that all pilots would likely have a degree anyway. In my experience at a regional only a minority of pilots have degrees. Even then I assumed pilots would have a level of intellect on par with that of doctors and lawyers but I have again found that not to be the case.

It seems we have dumbed down the profession to the point where the public just views us as over paid bus drivers. If you let any Tom, Dick or Harry become a pilot is it any wonder that the pay has degraded to what it is now? We will never regain that lost respect but requiring a degree will be a step in the right direction.

I'd like to see a requirement for all 121 pilots to have a degree not because it would make them better pilots but because it sets a minimum level of intellect.

Oh man, do you bore your wife with this stuff at dinner? Write a book, then shove it up your, well I already have two infractions so, you figure it out.

The problem of entitlement isn't that we should set high expectations for our careers and hold the industry to it. You are right, that is a good thing.

Here are the examples of entitlement that are hurting our industry...

1. *****ing that you had to sit reserve for more than 3 months as a new hire.

2. *****ing that 2000 hours total time is waaay to high to upgrade. You are a good pilot and know you are fully competent at 950 hours, since you must be "the best of the best" since you got hired to fly people in a jet at 300 hours, while it took us slow learners 1500-3000 hours to get hired.

3. *****ing that you had to wait a whopping 2 1/2 years to upgrade. Dang senior guys hogging the left seat! Move on losers!

4. Saying you WILL be a regional CA in 2 years and at FEDEX/UPS in 4 years......no need to actually pass upgrade and actually interview at the big boys.....they will come calling you as soon as you hit 1000 TPIC.

5. Walking on the beach during spring break in Daytona barefoot with your "pilot" shirt and "epaulettes" on to pick up teen girls....

6. Looking cool in the terminal wearing sunglasses, leather jackets in summer, ipod, and blue backpack complete with skateboard attached to the pack.

Some of this generation thinks that they are the only pilots in the history of aviation to sit reserve, not upgrade after 2 years, be paid less than $25/ hour, be furloughed etc.

I often have 1st year FO's tell me I don't know what it's like living on $21/hour FO pay. I tell them you're right, I was on $13.96-$18 1st year FO pay. And not too long ago.....

That's funny, I thought back in the day folks had to do like 10,000 hours just get an interview for a 135 job? We are told nowadays that as CRJ/ERJ drivers with years of jet time we're barely qualified to interview!

It's all about perspective I guess.

Thank goodness you quit flying. If I had to spend a month flying with you, I would open up my wrists long before the 30th.

It didn't take you long to realize that I bet.

I whole heartedly agree. Other than the weed out factor, it sounds like some people need/want to justify their degree. I no way am saying that a degree is a waste of time, but what is out there that really makes a better pilot? (no need to answer that) There's plenty of related subjects, but is there anything that really is a four year flight school per se? (you don't need to answer that either.)

As far as the comment/attitude on pilots being beneath others because they lack a degree. Dude, get off your holier than though rant. I can't say what I'd really like to about that crap mentality. A lot of people have real world experience that more than surpass what ever you payed for in college to apply to aviation. :)

There are some good ideas in this thread. I wish pilots were required to have a bachelor's degree. It is a way to weed people out thus decreasing supply. That in turn gives us more leverage which means more money. It would also make these web boards a little more tolerable. The grammar and spelling of my fellow pilots is atrocious.

Everyone pays
 

I do not see a conflict here. Everyone makes a huge sacrifice during hard times especially. Some guys are buying a twin and flying it to build time. Others are buying a job. I do not get why some get hot under the collar if others buy their time from a part 135 operator over buying their time in a plane that they own. Either way cash is being used to advance a career.

It makes more sense to me to buy time from a 135 operator. Not only are you getting the experience for less but it makes for better resume fodder as well.

Skyhigh

Part of the entitled problem ARE the guys that have degrees. I have a degree myself...just not the mighty four year, and I agree with the post that states some of you feel a need to justify having your degree. If you feel that it took so much time, effort, and money to obtain it only to be working next to a country bumkin that hasn't made the same "sacrifices" as you then maybe you need to go elsewhere. This industry is about unity, and by continuing to find ways to divide us will not help in the end.

Union Apprenticeship
 

I think that there should be a union enforced apprenticeship of some kind. Then it does not matter what the congress or the FAA does.

The union could determine that before a pilot could become "carded" for an airline job they must meet certain experience and training requirements. The numbers could be set at point to weed out people and to control the supply of pilots to the airlines. Thus creating an artificial shortage.

Skyhigh

BS.
I also went to college in the late 80s and only a select few got on with the majors within a couple of years after graduation and it was primarily in the early 80s. I guess your forget the fact that Branif went bust in '89 and Pan Am followed in '91. That really put a damper on hiring for quite sometime.

My point
 

I was in college during the mid to late 1980's. By the time I graduated things had indeed changed as you so kindly pointed out.

Skyhigh

I went to college in the mid to late 80's too; but I wasn't interested in the airlines so I don't know what the industry was like then.
Your post is confusing me though Sky.
Which was it in the late 80's - Were "...times good. Airlines were hiring." or "by the time you graduated things had indeed changed." :confused:

Did you go to college in the late 80's when you say times were good and then graduate in the early 90's when they had changed?

USMCFLYR

Yet we only hear this drivel from those without a 4 year degree. Seems like the degree-less crowd are the ones that feel the need to justify their decisions. If you beat the system, more power to you...just don't go around telling people it was a good plan.

You've posted quite a bit of drivel, yet I've only seen a few post from from people without degrees. There is no beating the system, you were either hired or not. If there was a degree requirement and you snuck in through a connection without one, then you would be beating a system. But you can't fault anyone for entering a field that has no degree requirement in place. I'm not wholly opposed to your idea, I'm just saying that looking down on someone right now for not having a degree is a bit ridiculous.

Maybe I shouldn't say "beat the system." More like "beat the odds."

I don't have a problem with your opinion as it may relate to graduates of certain programs (you know who I'm talking about), but on this board, in general, the people who get most in a huff and make silly excuses justifying their actions are the handful on this board who don't have degrees and wear it on their sleeves. Anytime someone proposes a degree requirement, you can count on someone to come out of the woodwork to say "well I got my ratings at 18 and I'm just as good as you."

The problem isn't that you're not a better pilot without a degree...it's the fact that you have less formal education, and thus lie below one of the few quantifiable lines we can draw if we are going to raise standards.

So I contend that your assertion that people are on here to justify their degrees is, in fact, 100% backward from whats going on here. People with degrees in this profession are in the overwhelming majority and don't need to justify anything.

All of us were told before we got into this industry that you should get your degree first, and that you're rolling the dice if you didn't...and if you didn't, don't get on here and make excuses for something that, FAA rule or not, is an industry standard that most are held to at Legacies. I would argue that there has ALWAYS been a de facto degree requirement in place, with exception to those who have had miraculous timing or good connections (and again, good for them).

This is no different than the 1500 hour minimum. There are guys who are better pilots at 500 hours than some with 7000 hours. Some people could have graduated from Middle School and done this. But at some point an arbitrary line needs to be drawn.

Online Degrees, well I agree that's a weakness in the degree argument, but one we'll leave for a future 20 page thread.

I do not agree that an arbitrary line needs to be drawn regarding pilots having a college degree. The fact is, it is not necessary for this profession. Plenty of airline and other types of commercial pilots since the Wilbur and Orville times have done just fine without one.

I also do not agree with ANY "arbitrary" lines being drawn beyond what we already have in place. I like our U.S. training and cerfification standards after learning more about the rest of the "free" worlds approach. That said, I think the move toward requiring an ATP for right seaters in scheduled 121 ops is a good one. Only in the respect that it will improve safety- not as an underhanded attempt to restrict the supply of pilots willing to do the job. I guess I am one of the few that doubts that restricting the supply of pilots through artificial means will have an affect on 121 pay and QOL.

Pie in the sky- I believe more emphasis needs to be placed on PIC time and evidence of good decision making skills in challenging conditions, and less emphasis on arbitrary hourly standards driven by insurance companies based on time on specific type.

I do have a four year degree by the way.

Good luck to all. Pedigree or not. Unless you paid for a job.

I'll agree to disagree...sort of.

Plenty, yes. Most, no.

You also used to be able to get a drivers license by paying $1 to the State of Kansas...standards change over time.


Amen to that!