putting life on hold
 

is it safe to say that many people opt out of the airlines because they dont want to put life on hold for the duration they are right-seating at a regional? i can see how it is tough to do especially if you are only making 22K a year and flying your tail off.. combo that with school loans, being in debt already from flight training and timebuilding... i would like to hear the perspective of people who have worked all the way up the ladder (from right seat at Colgan or the like, and now in a 75/6/7 for a major)

as a college grad, i would see it as being impossible to put my life on hold for 5+ years just to try and get a good paying job somewhere down the road... the industry itself discourages pilots because of the lack of vertical movement... everyone can fly regionals if they can sufficiently fly an airplane and know their stuff well, but you need to have someone die or retire to get a major job.. hardly seems fair

UConn
 

UConn,

You are smart to pick up on this. I have friends who have put off things like home ownership, marriage, children and many other very important things in life awaiting a coveted major airline job. The last time I looked the average age of a new hire at the majors is 37. Add to that another three years wait to get off probation pay and to build some seniority for even close to a normal life and you are getting up there. I choose to go ahead and start a family and have sacrificed my career for it. Others who have done the same are stuck at the regionals. Often though the ones who do make it stop and realize that they have left behind some very important things in life and regret it. It is a ruff decision though.

SkyHigh

I would like to know what people do when they leave aviation. If you don't have any other skills besides aviation, what is one to do that will make them a liveable wage? I have worked another job and would shoot myself in the head if I knew that I would have to go there 40 hours a week for the rest of my life. Starting a family really isn't going to do me a lot of good when I cannot feed the kids and I am miserable going to work.

I do think it takes long to get to a good flying job. I also think that people want instant gratification and when they don't get it, they give up. I have put off marriage and children for this job myself. My fiancee is understanding (he is in the industry) and I wouldn't be with him if he wasn't. We can always get married.....what is the big dang hurry? As far as kids....I do get nervous sometimes that I will wait too long but if I just went ahead and had some and quit flying, I would be miserable. Everyone is different though.

Well, regardless of what statistics show, there are a lot of jobs out there that pay decent. You just have to know how to get them. There is a retired navy pilot I know of, worked for Delta, got furloughed, became a Cinncinati police officer and probably would not go back to aviation if he was recalled. Everyone just has to find their own niche I guess.

Everyone is different. In life there is a huge opportunity cost in the path not taken. Since the airlines I have been building houses and am shocked by what other simple professions can earn. After pounding my head into the brick wall of the airlines everything else seems easy by comparison. I have airline friends who now are cops, build decks, firefighters, computer network executives and many other professions. Their lives quickly turned around after leaving the airport. They now own homes are building families and taking vacations for the first time in their lives. In addition now that my life is in sync with the rest of the worlds my social life has hugely improved. Just last weekend my family and I went on a four family camping trip. That never would have happened if I was still flying. I think it is important for everyone to periodically take stock of what the costs are and re-evaluate if it is still worth it to stay flying.

SkyHigh

I'm sure that he would love to know just how commited you are to him

Why would anybody want to be with a partner who is not understanding?

I know you don't like me from the other thread but let's not make little jabs at people especially when you have no idea as to our committment to eachother. I would tell him this to his face, K? Unlike probably 90% of couples out there we are honest with eachother and news flash.....you have to be understanding of your partner or else it will never work out.

I actually would like to follow this path as well. I don't know much about renovating houses, however I am looking at 'working' at a habitat for humanity project to learn to ins and outs of construction. I then plan to work construction part time in my days off, and learn even more. If I can scrape up enough to purcahse a slightly rundown house in the next few years I would like to renovate it and use the extra $$ to purcahse another, etc. etc. In fact, my long term goal would be to work for an airline, stay on reserve, and use the time off to renovate. I personally like the option of guaranteed income coming in, even if it's not much.

Plan
 

That was my plan exactly and it has saved my A$$.

SkyHigh

We were lucky
 

One morning many years ago, I looked down on a rush-hour traffic jam and mused: "Wonder how many of those folks are really happy with the jobs they're going to?" The wise old Captain said: "5%, maybe 10% at most. We are very lucky." :)

What percentage of pilots are happy with their jobs today? It's certainly fallen recently, but I'd guess it's still higher than the percentage for non-pilots of the same age, education, etc. Perhaps our friends who love their "ground" careers are simply more visible to us than the great numbers who work only because they have to, would quit if they could, and rarely even talk about their jobs. :confused:

Relative
 

Those 9 to 5 slaves get a lot in return. It is easy to be smug as an airline pilot. We easily coast above rush hour traffic and consider ourselves as the "smart" ones. However I don't think that most people are stupid as such. They choose to live within the rules of the 9 to 5 society for many of the perks that it offers. Regular people work when others are at work or school and are off when everyone else is off. Their lives are in sync and because of that they can have a better social life and enjoy more family time than the pilot. Pilots can count on missing most holidays, birthdays and important school functions in trade for a lonesome hotel room. It would be pompous and unfair to assume that the non-flying public have a lower happiness factor than pilots. In fact I would hold heatedly argue that the reverse was the case.

SkyHigh

Generally we can coast above rush hour traffic because we have to get up so damn early to make our show time, or are working through the other end when everyone else is going home. That said, the only times I ever remember feeling a real euphoria about flying was in the military. In fighters, I'd have paid them for the priviledge. Now, it's just a job...'course I'm a lot older and wiser.;)

Amen to that !!
 

Right on !!

SkyHigh

Cool. Why don't all you miserable pilots quit and find another job so I can move up and get a better schedule and all my friends can get good jobs too.

lol. . . finally. . . that pilot shortage I've been reading about for the past decade.

SkyHigh may be proven right
 

If SkyHigh is right, a great many pilots will do just that, and the number of applicants will fall dramatically. After all, none of us "think that most people are stupid as such". No need for arguments, heated or otherwise. People will vote with their feet, and that will quash any "pompous and unfair" assumptions we may harbor.

From what I read, you're a co-pilot with UPS, bad attitude and all. Cool. I'll be retiring soon enough, but in the meantime perhaps all your friends can hook-on as waitresses, secretaries, nurses, or the like...

lol. . . ouch. The minority hating just keeps getting worse. :)

Skyhigh
 

It would take a lot more SkyHigh's to get the message out there before we would see a dent in the pilot supply.

I had an interesting conversation with a guy yesterday. He drives a delivery truck for a local lumber yard and has worked for the same place since he was in high school. He is married and has children and at 33 will have his home paid off. No college or help of any kind. Now he is moving on to drive a logging truck for the Indian reservation and with the extra money he expects to buy a cabin and be retired by 45. Pilots have tunnel vision. We are in a rut and don't realize that the outside world has been passing us by in regards to pay and quality of life. The working class will become the middle class and most with fancy jobs and college training will slide to the lower end. In ten years welders will be higher paid than pilots (if they are not already now).

For sport I enjoy telling the workers on the job site how little pilots at Horizon Air earn and watch their faces turn white. Spoiled middle class kids in the university system will not be dissuaded when they are faced with the prospect of getting a real job. However, Most rational adults when presented with the same information will run from aviation like their tail was on fire. All we need to do is to get it out there.

SKyHigh

Wouldn't the working class having the 'power' basically be Communism/Trotskyism or the sort? As far as I know it has not worked too well in history yet :p

And welders..they start at about 12-14/hr or so depending on area. But plenty of overtime. I mean if you want to do physical labor your whole life then great have it. I just got a job delivering ice cream products to stores. Should make around 40k-45k or so/yr. Dropped out of college and i'm 21. I mean yea sure that is OK money, esp for my age, but I wouldn't want to do labor BS the rest of my life. Which is why I don't see myself at this place more than two years tops, and that is pushing it really.

Power
 

I don't think that the working class will be in power. My opinion is that it is all to easy for a company to find an educated pilot or manager but becoming increasingly difficult to find responsible and capable people to preform work functions like plumbing and welding. In the town that I live in high school drop outs can earn 40K as long as they show up to the job site most of the time and don't gripe to much. My brother is a construction manager of a large job and tells me that they have a union worker on site who's job is to sweep all day and appears drunk most of the time. He earns 55K. If you count all the years of education, training and low wage experience building it would take most pilots 15 years to reach that much income.

SKyHigh

Congratulations
 

Yea !! At that wage you will earn more than a newly upgraded captain at Horizon Air !!


SKyHigh

True. But is a drunk sweeper really worth 55k? Just from hearing he just sweeps and 'appears' drunk makes me think he isn't:eek:. But again to each their own. People probably should not get into this industry and expect to get rich, and I hope they don't.

True but he's not lifting boxes out of a truck in 100 degree weather :( So damned hot here in Portland lately.

And ok..year 1 captain Horizon makes about $42,000 on guarantee hours (not reserve). Assuming he NEVER upgrades to a diff aircraft, he will top out at $64,680 based on guarantee..not counting per diem. If he ever moved into a CRJ then $101,640. I will NEVER EVER make near $64,680 at this job..ever

And life is a gamble. I myself am not content sitting here working a job like this my whole life or even more than a couple of years. It does not challenge me, there is no room for upgrade and there is no risk involved. To me life is a risk, you will get scared, but if you don't push forward and try to better yourself because you're scared of the risk and failure, then you lose at life.

Don't forget
 

Don't forget to subtract for a full college education, flight training, multiple moves and wasted years of low paid (just yesterday a CFI told me that a good wage in the NW is 13K per year) experience building. I think that if you sat down and did the math including interest for all the loans you will need you will see that the odds are against you doing any better as a pilot.

SKyHigh

I believe Horizon's pay system is based on what your senority can hold, not what you are flying. For example, if you have been there 30 years and can hold CRJ captain, but are flying the Q400, you still get CRJ pay.

Loading
 

Let's not forget the years of loading piston cargo planes at 3:00am in the freezing wind for less than half of your ice cream truck pay.

SkyHigh

Not Sure
 

I don't think that is accurate. Why else would they have different pay rates for captains? Besides what would be the motivation to move up in equipment if you were not going to earn more?

SkyHigh

Funny how sarcasm is misconstrued as a "bad" attitude.

BTW, 95% of my friends that I was talking about are guys.

I am with you. Making money working my a$$ off and with overtime just doesn't seem appealing even if it will make more than a pilot. I worked my a$$ off to get a decent airline job so I wouldn't have to work my a$$ off forever.

I'm always interested to hear the career path of a woman in this bidness. please do tell

Yes all of this is probably true, but the point is eventually you will make a pretty good wage. 75,80,90 100k. At this job you will probably never break the 50k mark.

A doctor who starts at age 18 studying to be a physician, will practice by the age of 29, assuming hes only general practice. Okay so he starts at around 100,000 or so a year and the pay gets better and better. Sure he's in a lot of debt from it (i knew a doctor to have 450,000 in student loans - 4 year private univeristy 4 year private medical school). But in the end he'll make a lot more money than some guy who makes 50k starting at age 18 until retirement.

Assuming a doctor never made more than that starting 100k, started at age 29, worked til 60. He made 3.1 million dollars in 31 years. That 50k a year guy worked 42 years, which would be 11 years more, and made 1 million less. But of course that doctor would probably eventually make well over 200k a year.

My uncle right now works 1 day a week in an urgent care unit and probably makes roughly $50,000 a year on his 10 hour work week, in addition to his military pension (colonel)

Uncertain
 

At least a medical doctor can find a good paying job in most any town. Don't forget to subtract for lost wages, training costs, lost years in school and the potential that the money has to serve you better invested someplace else.

You don't even know if you will ever get a job. It is my opinion that most do not. Even if you did a regional gig is likely to be years off. Perspective pilots love to assume on the high side. A better plan is to estimate low and hope to do better. You don't even know if there will even be a Horizon Air in the future. By the time you get there everything will have changed. Possibly for the better however most likely not.

There is a reason why firefighters, police, heavy equipment operators and other working class people have campers, boats, own homes and have the time to enjoy it all. They have earned a good wage from day one and do not have a mountain of student loans to pay back. By the time a pilot is lucky enough to attract a major airline his peer who joined the army at 18 is ready to retire. It isn't the size of the paycheck that makes a difference but the duration of earnings and benefits versus costs of employment. We can make money mistakes but going heavily in debt for a job that most likely will not pan out and at best will leave you employed but destitute is nonsense.

SKyHigh

Well..don't go in debt then. I mean for my pilot training I don't intend to go to an ERAU, DC, RAA or the such. Really isn't a point other than to spend money you do not have.

And yes someone who enlisted in the army at 18 can retire at 38..but enlisted pensions are crap and you will be working well after 38 I guarantee it. And most police officers do have Bachelor degrees, a lot of masters and even some have JD degrees as well. So they are far from uneducated formally.

[QUOTE=Brav989]Well..don't go in debt then. I mean for my pilot training I don't intend to go to an ERAU, DC, RAA or the such. Really isn't a point other than to spend money you do not have.

And yes someone who enlisted in the army at 18 can retire at 38..but enlisted pensions are crap and you will be working well after 38 I guarantee it. And most police officers do have Bachelor degrees, a lot of masters and even some have JD degrees as well. So they are far from uneducated formally.[/QUOTE]

We do? You wont meet too many lawers in cruisers working late outs.

I have known of a couple that had JD degrees and don't know a single officer without at least a bachelor's

Nm..I knew one but he was layed off. But he's working on his degree right now.

Hmm....must be a local phenomenon. We do however, well most of us anyway, enjoy the benefit of tuition reimbursement. Might be nice if airlines took a cue...